Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Greetings, friends. It is me, your magical pony friend, back here at Paizo, basking in the warm glow of the flames and heat created by the launch of a new edition.
Now, as we're all aware, gaming was a much better pastime back in [insert the year in which you started] and has only recently been ruined by [PF2e/Millenials/4e/The Lack of Support for Eberron]. Rather than debate the future of this godless dystopia we all currently inhabit, I wanted to extend a hand to all my former comrades in arms and accursed foes (you vile scum sucking bastards), and welcome you to sit here, have a virtual beverage and slice of pie, and enjoy the pain and anguish of Those Damned Kids fighting the same war we once partook in ages ago.
So, hey, long time, no see. I hope the wife/husband and kids/pets are well.
Edit: Sorry friends. I thought we could have something nice and friendly, but I forgot how edition wars work. Kiss the spouse and kick the dog for me. I'll be back when the sun sets in the east and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. (Okay, I'll probably be back sooner than that, but mostly to talk about Fallout.)
Fare ye well, edition warriors.
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Greetings, friends. It is me, your magical pony friend, back here at Paizo, basking in the warm glow of the flames and heat created by the launch of a new edition.
Now, as we're all aware, gaming was a much better pastime back in [insert the year in which you started] and has only recently been ruined by [PF2e/Millenials/4e/The Lack of Support for Eberron]. Rather than debate the future of this godless dystopia we all currently inhabit, I wanted to extend a hand to all my former comrades in arms and accursed foes (you vile scum sucking bastards), and welcome you to sit here, have a virtual beverage and slice of pie, and enjoy the pain and anguish of Those Damned Kids fighting the same war we once partook in ages ago.
So, hey, long time, no see. I hope the wife/husband and kids/pets are well.
Edit: Sorry friends. I thought we could have something nice and friendly, but I forgot how edition wars work. Kiss the spouse and kick the dog for me. I'll be back when the sun sets in the east and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. (Okay, I'll probably be back sooner than that, but mostly to talk about Fallout.)
Fare ye well, edition warriors.
Well...it was nice "seeing" you again. ;-)
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First....
I'll be back when the sun sets in the east and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.
This is a particularly impressive bit of nonsense wordsmithery that I may have to borrow in the future. Kudos.
Secondly, having spent most of the night going over the various theorizing/requesting/demanding/complaining in this forum, at the moment I think I'm going to be sticking with my initial reaction - wishing Paizo the best of luck, and keeping up my occasional purchases of APs that look interesting, but completely parting ways with them when it comes to the mechanics. The more little bits of the PF2 system that leak out from commentary from the devs, combined with the unimpressive showing from Starfinder's mechanics, leaves me little hope that PF2 will be something that is of interest to me.
Still disappointing but to be quite honest I likely have it a lot better than many others do. I'm the primary GM for my group and none of my players (to my knowledge) are involved in any other gaming groups or play any other games. We got started as a whole on 3.5/PF - a few converts from 2e among us but the majority didn't start playing until well into the 3.5 days at the earliest - and that's likely where we'll stay, if only for the simple fact of not wanting to learn another system.
And admittedly, if there's any group that could pull this off, it's probably Paizo. They're one of the most 3PP-friendly publishers I've ever seen, and it's my slim hope that enough of us will remain attached to "Pathfinder Classic" or whatever the colloquial term ends up being when PF2 comes out that some 3PPs will take notice and start trying to appeal to that crowd with products that maintain the PF1 mechanics and design ideals.
So at the moment I'm hoping for enterprising 3PPs to step up to the plate to continue expanding Pathfinder Classic where Paizo has chosen to move on, and likewise praying that Paizo will make their future APs relatively easy to reverse-engineer from PF2 to PF1. And again I consider myself somewhat lucky in this regard, as I've gotten used to having to rebuild and redesign most of the NPCs and monsters in APs anyway, as the as-written stuff tends to be a cakewalk for my players if I don't.
So honestly looking at it this way, things as a whole probably won't change much at all for me, except that I won't be able to be looking to Paizo for future updates and releases on the mechanical side. Here's hoping some enterprising 3PP or three is ready to step up to the plate and fill the void.
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Is this where we throw our Pathfinder FIRST EDITION books on the bonfire?.
What about comparing the two system by system?
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I'm happy that this is happening. I was going to probably continue running out of the Rules Cyclopedia, but I was swayed by a possibility of adventures in an easier frame. I went to 3.0, then to 3.5, then I'm here, to Pathfinder.
Now that the world is moving on, and I have shelves and shelves of stuff to run, I'm probably going to continue to run off my collection, and paint when I'm available to. I really want to build this amazing collection of painted figurines.
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The Q&A says they want to simplify rules and improve gameplay, and that basically "It's time" for a 2nd edition. Honestly, for me, my Core Rulebook says "3.5 Compatible" on the back cover, and that's why I play Pathfinder. If I wanted simpler rules, I would play 5e. (Yuck.) I started out with the original Basic Set (Holmes box) and AD&D 1e. I may be in the minority, but I want messy tables of rules and lots of math. I'll take a look -- I may even incorporate a rule or two into my home game. But my table will not move beyond 3.5-compatibility so long as I'm breathing.
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I felt like it was time for a new edition 5 years ago, so, opinions vary.
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I think it will go down better than the last ones (3.5-4E, 4E-5E).
1. Paizo has a decent amount of good will, even from 5E players and ex PF players.
2. PF 1E lasted twice as long as 3.5 in print. WotC jumped the gun with 4E
3. Probably evolution not revolution. Hopefully its the 4E I wanted in 2008.
Probably gonna buy a copy regardless, throw some coin Paizo way since I do not currently play or purchase Pathfinder. A thank you for the work on Dragon and Dungeon and keeping the torch burning 2008-2012.
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First....I'll be back when the sun sets in the east and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.This is a particularly impressive bit of nonsense wordsmithery that I may have to borrow in the future. Kudos.
You should thank George R.R. Martin for that. Sebastian borrowed a quote from A Game of Thrones there.
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This thread inspires nothing but genuine and honest fear in my heart.
Just wait till I get involved...
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Back when we had to fill in the numbers on our dice with a wax crayon, and hobgoblins were vaguely Japanese-looking, I experienced my first Edition War, between those who wished to move to the new "Red Box" D&D (who remembers Bargle?) and those for whom such a thing was a Blasphemy that was in violation of All Things True and Good.
The difference this time, of couse, is that I am Right, whereas all who disagree with me are Wrong and Misguided.
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I tried to put on my old armor from the Edition Wars. It doesn’t fit anymore.
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I'm just as intelligent and almost as good-natured as I was then, but so much more worldly and wise.
There is no way I would spend so many hours in the war for truth anymore, for none shall listen.
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I'm a bit of an oddity in that I have loved every game I've ever played. Basic D&D, AD&D 2e, 3(.5)e, 4e, 5e, Pathfinder, Strike!, LotFP, DCC RPG, White Wolf, WHFRP 2e, The One Ring, BCG/Z, BFRPG, Darker Dungeons and more!
I HATE edition wars. They are divisive and more often than not bring out the worst in the gaming community. I loved 4e and feel so slighted that so many people balked at it simply because it was different. I felt the same way when people balked at 3e when 2e was winding down. And, while it was not as pronounced, I know more than a few people who freaked when WotC announced 5e.
Pathfinder 2e is something long needed. the d20 system is being weighed down and becoming far too bloated to be healthy. It needs to slim down or die from it's own weight.
That does not mean I hate Pathfinder! I love Pathfinder! I fully intend to continue playing it just like I do so many other games! Change is not bad, change is needed lest system fatigue occurs.
So bring on P2E! I embrace it!
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Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
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Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
I just plain have to disagree with you. There are tens of thousands of rules, many options that should not be tied down in certain ways (such as Power Attack being a feat and not just something anyone can do) and more. And the sheer amount of rules turns of many players (I had one prospective player balk and leave after seeing d20pfsrd and panicking that they would not be able to make a viable character even AFTER I and the other players stated we would help them build one).
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Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
Some of the soldiers in those battalions have broken legs, and they're slowing down the others.
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Some of the soldiers in those battalions have broken legs, and they're slowing down the others.Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
But your bloat is someone else's favorite option.
Is my 11 year old son going to be able to play a Goliath Druid when PF2 launches?
Will he ever be able to?
It's an obscure archetype, buries in a single player companion, and the one thing that gets him genuinely excited about the game.
"BAH, that's just worthless bloat!" Isn't really a good answer.
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Amusingly enough I prefer 5e over prior editions/pathfinder. But I play more 2e than any other edition.
Pathfinder is... fatiguing I did love 3/.5 and pathfinder but now I get stricken with analysis paralysis every level up. There is simply too much stuff out there and in all honesty a good 70% of it is pretty worthless (at least to me).
Pathfinder has come to feel like you have to plan your character out from level 1 to the expected end with it's combination of gatekeeper feats, stringent requirements for options and sheer number of options, I like more organic growth.
Some of the soldiers in those battalions have broken legs, and they're slowing down the others.Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
But your bloat is someone else's favorite option.
Is my 11 year old son going to be able to play a Goliath Druid when PF2 launches?
Will he ever be able to?
It's an obscure archetype, buries in a single player companion, and the one thing that gets him genuinely excited about the game.
"BAH, that's just worthless bloat!" Isn't really a good answer.
Does he need to have that option printed in the book for the DM to let him play one? Outside of Society play? It is a roleplaying game after all. That's without discussing the difference in mechanics bloat and options bloat, and I don't really think bloat is ever used except as a pejorative.
I shudder to think what I would do if I could only play Eberron if it was an official supplement.
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I have to admit that my concerns are mainly financial. I'm not getting rid of my first-edition books. I still have every book I've ever owned, going back to the mid-70s (not that I've been alive that long, just...that's a digression).
With six Bestiaries full of monsters, it's a guarantee that every 2E monster book will be loaded with slightly different stats for monsters that I've already paid for. And now that I have collected well over a half-dozen DMs/GMs guides (not including setting specific ones like the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide, etc.)...I'm not looking forward to the opportunity to pay for another one that is mostly new spins on old ideas and a handful of rules that I really need in order to run a proper 2E game.
And, like the Goliath Druid mentioned above, the flip side is that we are guaranteed to NEVER see some of our old favorites, because they weren't cool enough, or popular enough, and anyway, you can just make them yourself with a few quick and easy tweaks. Some of my favorite movies were never released on anything other than VHS. Did I stop loving them? No. But have I been able to clear up the space where the VCR sits? No, again.
I'm not anxious to see the repetition this will cause, and I'm less anxious to see what becomes the VHS of 1E.
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Some of the soldiers in those battalions have broken legs, and they're slowing down the others.Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
But your bloat is someone else's favorite option.
Is my 11 year old son going to be able to play a Goliath Druid when PF2 launches?
Will he ever be able to?
It's an obscure archetype, buries in a single player companion, and the one thing that gets him genuinely excited about the game.
"BAH, that's just worthless bloat!" Isn't really a good answer.
Does he need to have that option printed in the book for the DM to let him play one? Outside of Society play? It is a roleplaying game after all. That's without discussing the difference in mechanics bloat and options bloat, and I don't really think bloat is ever used except as a pejorative.
I shudder to think what I would do if I could only play Eberron if it was an official supplement.
Since the mode he plays the game in is almost exclusively society, yes, he needs to have it printed and sanctioned.
The obvious answer is that the store game I run will keep running as PF1 PFS, and that we will only attend cons where there are PF1 PFS tables, assuming those still exist.
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But your bloat is someone else's favorite option.
Threatening Illusion (Metamagic)
You’ve mastered the art of making illusions that force foes to divide their attention in combat.
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (illusion), gnome.
Benefit: You can use this metamagic feat only on illusion (figment) spells.
A threatening illusion spell causes one target to believe your illusion is a threat. Choose one 5-foot square within the area of your illusion; that square threatens the target as long as it is adjacent. Thus, if you or an ally is on the opposite side of the target, it is considered flanking. Normally the area must contain an illusory creature of Small or Medium size. However, you can select one square of a larger illusory creature to threaten the target. For example, an illusory Large ogre takes up four 5-foot squares; you select one square to be the source of the threat, and its other three squares do not threaten anyone. If the target has reason to believe there is an invisible creature in the vicinity, even an auditory illusion with no visual elements (such as ghost sound) is sufficient to convince the target that the selected square contains an actual threat. As long as you maintain the illusion, you can change the location of the threatening square as a swift action. When you threaten a target with this spell, the foe may make a Will save to disbelieve (DC 10 + threatening spell’s level + your spellcasting ability score modifier). If the target makes this save, the threatening effect of this feat no longer applies to it.
Level Increase: +1 (a threatening illusion takes up a spell slot one level higher than normal.)
Normal: Illusion spells do not threaten squares.
Is this anyone's favorite option? Gnome, two feats, +1 caster level, all to give an ability that I would have allowed any illusionist to do for free?
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Some of the soldiers in those battalions have broken legs, and they're slowing down the others.Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
Then don't use those soldiers in your army
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At this point there are thousands of soldiers, and I need to give them all medical exams myself in order to judge if they're fit for service. This is not a good use of my time.
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wait, are you the General or the CMO of that army?
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So much for having a thread where those of us uninterested in converting can discuss our reasons civilly without being overrun by the new edition fans.
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But your bloat is someone else's favorite option.Is this anyone's favorite option? Gnome, two feats, +1 caster level, all to give an ability that I would have allowed any illusionist to do for free?Threatening Illusion (Metamagic)
You’ve mastered the art of making illusions that force foes to divide their attention in combat.
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (illusion), gnome.
Benefit: You can use this metamagic feat only on illusion (figment) spells.
A threatening illusion spell causes one target to believe your illusion is a threat. Choose one 5-foot square within the area of your illusion; that square threatens the target as long as it is adjacent. Thus, if you or an ally is on the opposite side of the target, it is considered flanking. Normally the area must contain an illusory creature of Small or Medium size. However, you can select one square of a larger illusory creature to threaten the target. For example, an illusory Large ogre takes up four 5-foot squares; you select one square to be the source of the threat, and its other three squares do not threaten anyone. If the target has reason to believe there is an invisible creature in the vicinity, even an auditory illusion with no visual elements (such as ghost sound) is sufficient to convince the target that the selected square contains an actual threat. As long as you maintain the illusion, you can change the location of the threatening square as a swift action. When you threaten a target with this spell, the foe may make a Will save to disbelieve (DC 10 + threatening spell’s level + your spellcasting ability score modifier). If the target makes this save, the threatening effect of this feat no longer applies to it.
Level Increase: +1 (a threatening illusion takes up a spell slot one level higher than normal.)
Normal: Illusion spells do not threaten squares.
It's apparent that you are eager for second edition, but the basis that in your personal games you would not require a feat for this ability is hardly something to hold against the games as written.
We all house rule, for our own reasons, but if the internet has taught us anything it is that, yes, that thing that you think is really lame probably IS someone else's favorite toy. Yes, even this one.
The problem with edition wars that makes them personal has always been that they are the place where personal opinion collides with poor game design. There is a broad gray area where those two things co-exist, and the longer a game persists the broader that gray area becomes.
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It's apparent that you are eager for second edition
Nope. The chances of the second edition being the type of second edition I want are too low. I think it's more likely to split the community than make things better.
(I only hang out here because I sometimes miss playing Pathfinder. I tried to get a game going recently, but everyone I spoke to was more interested in D&D5e, so I switched.)
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I just plain have to disagree with you. There are tens of thousands of rules, many options that should not be tied down in certain ways (such as Power Attack being a feat and not just something anyone can do) and more. And the sheer amount of rules turns of many players (I had one prospective player balk and leave after seeing d20pfsrd and panicking that they would not be able to make a viable character even AFTER I and the other players stated we would help them build one).Bloat is a pejorative term used by gamers to manipulate perceptions.
Pathfinder mechanics are more like battalions of an army moved into position as needed. There is no bloat.
I can't really respond to how you should GM your group. I've indoctrinated plenty of new players without difficulty. When teaching one to swim, one doesn't generally throw the learner into the raging ocean with no life vest.
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I think PF needed simplification, but not in terms of the mechanics. Option bloat was the biggest issue. A quick look at the direction of PF 2E makes it look like they're going in the direction of D&D 5E... simplifying the game too much for my tastes.
Yes, I know options are just options... but PF was including references to non-core options in most of their products, making it difficult to easily play the game without all the supplements.
My ideal PF would be the core rulebook, the Bestiaries, the Golarion world books, and maybe one or two "Unearthed Arcana" type expansions. Unfortunately, the reality of being a game publisher is that you have to keep coming out with new product.
This looks like it will be the final death of the d20 system, which is a shame. I think it was the ideal RPG system.
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*squints*.
When you no longer had to tramp through three separate classes to become a Bard, I drew the line. When wizards no longer had unlimited HD on fireballs, I drew the line. When Dwarves could become magic users and go up to level 20.. dear god I drew the line. so, I can't believe we're still debating about this whole 1st Edition - 2nd Edition garbage. This second edition will never last.
*squints again* whazzat? Pathfinder? What about a Nissan SUV? Stay focused young man. This is important stuff.
Now go get me some waffles.
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I can't say I'm too pleased by this decision, but I did see it coming.
Besides making all of my splatbooks worthless, I'll probably have to drop out of playing PFS. I know I can always write my own adventures for my friends, but due to time constraints I tend to rely on APs and published modules.
C'est la vie I guess. Hopefully I can get another AP or two out of this edition and keep my friends entertained for a bit longer before I have to cancel.
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Some of my players will update, and some won't. What can you do? It's a two-system party.
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*Stands before the shelves of D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st Edition books*
Well, old friends, we stand upon the edge of war once again. Ten years of peace and prosperity in our realm since Paizo saved us from defeat at the hands of 4th Edition. Much has changed since then. We have grown, we have prospered, we have flourished. We watched 4th Edition burn itself down from the safety of Paizo's walls. We watched with hope as 5th Edition launched and grew.
We knew peace for so long, we forgot what we fought for in the first place. But I did not, and it nears time for this old soldier to don his armor once more and put the enemy to the sword. Only this time the enemy is from within rather than without. Comrade against comrade, brother against brother.
Out of respect, we will share our tales of grand adventure and share an ale before the 2nd Edition Beta hits and we become locked in combat over game systems and rules.
Hail brothers!
Time for One last drink before the War?
There is real trepidation here. in the playtest podcast, when skills appeared to be so simplified, CMB/CMD removed and the wholesale rework of magic items still to be explained (only threatened so far), we may well be in for some Old time, Come-to-Jesus, Edition Warring.
I don't know where this all sits just yet; so I don't know where >>I<< sit just yet.
So yes, One more drink before the War.