Are we going to have to start over earning DM stars in the 2.0 campaign?


Pathfinder Society Playtest

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2/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Lafayette aka Poison Dusk

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I hope this is the right place for this: How will this change affect our GM race boons? If I work for a large part of the year to get Aasimar/Teifling unlocked just to have it invalidated by the edition change it will put one hell of a damper on my drive to GM games.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Colchester

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I look forward to the challenge of earning 15 'stars'.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Jack Amy wrote:
I look forward to the challenge of earning 15 'stars'.

That's the spirit ^^

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

For those of us not already close to getting the 5th star, I don't see a path, given the table requirements and special requirements.

I may be able to get 5 novas, and maybe 5 "Clusters" (that is my idea of what to call them) in 2.0. But for 1.0, I will be challenged to get 3 stars.

Way it goes.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I should be getting my 5th star just in time to start over on getting whatever the stars will be called in PFS2.0

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Dunedin aka dinketry

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Pathfinder has continued to evolve over the time that we've all been playing. Second edition Pathfinder is simply the next evolution. I look forward to seeing it happen and making the choice of whether I would like to play 1st or 2nd edition for my game moving forward.

Society was specifically set up to inclusively spread the word of Pathfinder. Stars were awarded to GMs who did so. We weren't awarded different stars pre-Advanced Players Guide and post-Advanced Players Guide, or pre-Occult Adventures Guide and post-Occult Adventures Guide.

I don't think we should be awarded different stars pre-1st edition and post-1st edition. I think that you'll be alienating a lot of people who have worked very hard to spread the word of Pathfinder by not making GM stars roll over into 2nd edition. I think you'll be disappointing a lot of people who are thinking about getting their 4th or 5th star, their 1st star, or even GMing their first game.

The playtest hasn't started yet. And the playtest will take time. And that time will result in the loss of disgruntled Pathfinder Society GMs. I'm not going anywhere: I love Golarion, but I have worked very hard as a GM to INCLUDE everyone. This feels like exclusion.

I think people can be excited and skeptical about Pathfinder 2nd edition. People were excited and skeptical about D&D 4th edition, once. I would humbly advise not changing anything about how Pathfinder Society stars work.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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I feel a rant coming on, and I hope you all will bear with me. This will be my second rant in over 18,000 posts, so you know that I only rant when I think that it's important.

HILARY'S RANT

Like everyone else, I want our GM Star System to matter. I want it to mean something. Deciding to go to five stars is not merely a status symbol. It is a badge of commitment to the PFS campaign. It means that you have decided to provide games to others. You've often chosen to GM the new games first so that others have a chance to play them. It means that you've struggled with specials, learning to prep them, working on your speed and quality so that your table can contribute in a complex and ever-changing game. Many five stars have been to conventions where they go through one game after another, struggling to maintain their voice, get enough food and rest, and still help welcome new people to PFS.

My personal five star journey has been one of self-discovery and hard work. Wanting my fifth star to be a badge of quality as well as quantity, I have continually stretched myself. Get better at running combat? Check. Run a seeker level module? Check. Acted as overseer for a special? Check. GMed specials on every tier from 1-2 to 10-11? Check. Learn how to communicate crazy one shot mechanics and make them fun? Check.

I've also made it about giving to others, wanting to make sure that every game has been memorable. I research settings, and tailor the stories of 3-7 evergreens to the parties that are playing them.

Part of the reason why I've put in this time and effort was that I loved the idea that I personally was helping to build and grow the campaign, whether I was GMing in my favorite store in Minnesota, or online or at the big show of GenCon. There were hiccups that I hit: losing 15 games of GM credit to a Paizo blip, and then having half my GenCon games go unreported. However, I decided that those were minor frustrations, and just quietly re-earned those lost tables.

I've planned for my 5 star confirmation table, deciding that I could wait for PaizoCon, where I could get both my beloved RVC, Jesse, and my beloved Minnesotan VCs all at the same table along with Linda. Why? Because this was a transition that mattered deeply to me. And now... Now I am sitting on the verge of 5 stars, with 149 reported tables, and all my specials, and wondering if my five star confirmation table still matters. I feel this incredible sense of loss that none of our stars are carrying over to the new campaign, and this just does not seem right.

Five stars is not just about the perks. It's not just about having your name appear in the Paizo blog, or getting to replay another game each year, or even about adding 5 to your rerolls. (Though all of these are admittedly nice things.) It's a tangible measurement of a personal journey. It's an acknowledgement of the time that you've put into building the PFS campaign.

PFS 2.0 is still PFS. It has been built by GMs who have put their hearts and souls into this campaign. To have none of that carry over makes me personally feel undervalued.

MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN

I like the earlier proposal that was made of allowing partial stars to carry over into the new campaign. If you had three, one star carries over. If you had four, two stars carry over. If you had five, three stars carry over.

I have no problem with the idea that we will have to re-earn specials, and build towards whatever requirements that you decide apply towards 5 star status in the new campaign. It will be a new campaign, and so we should put in some work to earn our places there.

I just feel that there also has be an acknowledgement that if the new campaign is being built on top of the old one, that the foundations that you build upon still matter.

Thank you for listening, and putting up with my rant. I promise to return to my more helpful and optimistic style soon... I just am having trouble doing that now.

Hmm

Scarab Sages 5/5

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I think you should certainly still be considered a PFS1 5-star. And that your board presence should still show 5-stars. So PFS2 should have a different designation. Perhaps to help keep the icons to a minimum though, the PFS1 star designations is a single different star-type object per star. 1 = faded star; 2 = faded star with bold outline; 3 = bold star (like we currently see); 4 = bold star with faded gold halo; 5 = bold star with bold gold halo. This way people can still recognize the effort, time, and presumed competence/quality of your GM skills.

But because PF2 is looking to be significantly different enough, I don't think PFS2 should recognize stars as they currently stand, because learning the new system should be part of gaining the new PFS2 symbols (lets call them Hearts).

But having some sort of legacy bonus for your commitment to PFS1 should definitely be allowed. Perhaps in the form of a boon that grants 500gp, 1XP, 2PP to a character of choice times the number of stars you have. And that character can get a special title (with escalating moderate bonus per star) from a short list, so when you introduce your character at the table, everyone will know that you were an N-star GM in PFS1.

1-Star = Adopted by Blakros (or equivalent)
2-Star = Taldan VisBaron (or equivalent)
3-Star = Blakros scion (or equivalent)
4-Star = Taldan Baron (or equivalent)
5-Star = Blakros Daughter (or equivalent)

The Exchange 3/5

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I'm gonna keep playing, so this is not a gripe, but I haven't heard any official discussion as to why stars are not going to just carry over. They exist outside the game mechanics and a lot of my GMs feel this is an unnecessary kick in the pants, which already have a big old kick dent from characters not converting.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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Tallow wrote:
But having some sort of legacy bonus for your commitment to PFS1 should definitely be allowed. Perhaps in the form of a boon that grants 500gp, 1XP, 2PP to a character of choice times the number of stars you have. And that character can get a special title (with escalating moderate bonus per star) from a short list, so when you introduce your character at the table, everyone will know that you were an N-star GM in PFS1.

Not good enough. A one-time boost to one character is not the right scale. If they are to go away, the compensation should be on-going, and should apply to all your characters.

Dark Archive 4/5

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I largely share Hilary's sentiment. I also appreciate the extra mile she puts into GMing games and it makes me want to deliver better experiences when I GM. I can appreciate there are good reasons for starting over on counting with a new campaign, but at the same time I'm not going to chase down that 5th star in the last 18 months of a campaign. It might be of value if there was ongoing meaning to the 1E campaign. I don't know exactly what that means, but if there is some minimal level of support. Maybe if scenario reporting continued to potentially impact 2E org play? The rest of the APs could get sanctioned and keep 1E reporting filled with new content for awhile...

My point is that to a certain extent what constitutes an appropriate reward/ acknowledgement for 1E GMs is partially related to how much it continues to be active after GenCon 2019.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Craig Bertuglia wrote:
I'm gonna keep playing, so this is not a gripe, but I haven't heard any official discussion as to why stars are not going to just carry over. They exist outside the game mechanics and a lot of my GMs feel this is an unnecessary kick in the pants, which already have a big old kick dent from characters not converting.

Yeah, I don't have much skin in this particular game, but I'm not sure why the stars just don't continue. It's the same campaign, they're just tweaking the rules set.

To me, it makes as much sense as saying stars reset when the Unchained versions of classes came out (hey, everyone had to learn new rules), or the Ultimate Intrigue social combat rules were released (new rules to learn there) or Ultimate Wilderness... if it is ever sanctioned.

It's not like Starfinder. Starfinder is a new game and, more importantly, a new campaign. Everyone started from scratch because GMing PF games didn't give you any more experience GMing in the setting of the Starfinder campaign.

By the time it all comes around, my two stars aren't going to matter much, but for all those 3, 4 and 5 stars out there, I feel like it should count just as much as it does now and credit given for whichever PF ruleset you run as part of the PFS campaign.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Take a breath time folks!

No official word has been given on what will happen with GM Rewards. Nothing has changed! We are only talking about could be changed or what we would like to see.

Thank you and carry on.

The Exchange 5/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I feel a rant coming on, and I hope you all will bear with me. This will be my second rant in over 18,000 posts, so you know that I only rant when I think that it's important.

HILARY'S RANT

....

hugs

feel for you. Lots of sympathy.

I feel different about the end of the Campaign, but perhaps it's because I've been here before. (yeah, and I am in much the same place as you. I'm in process if setting up my 10th special, more than a year into getting all the right pieces in place for it to be just so... Already talked to my VC about setting up my "review" game, which will be different from my 10th Special, and with my judging total being over 180 now...).

Coming to the end of this part of my gaming life. Just like when LG ended... so many other times, other games...

It's kind of like when we're at the end of a long running home game and I hold in my hand the binder detailing the Kingdom I have (with my friends) carved from the world of Imagination, sculpted with my blood, and sweat, with my tears and love and fears, over Years of Real Time... and I realize that it's just going to go in a storage box in the basement... Yeah. Very sad.

But, in other games, at other times, I've taken parts of those other games - other times and tried to take them into the new world. Heck, in PFS my #1 and #3 PCs were re-builds of my favorite PCs from LG. They started that way. #1? I can force myself to play him sometimes, but he still hasn't reached 11th level. He just isn't the same character he was in LG... "Salvaging something" that time was a mistake. He existed better in LG... I kind of wish I had left him there. My #2 and #4 are so much better - fuller Characters. More Real. More PFS (1E I guess).

Going forward I am going to get my 5th star soon (maybe in the next two weeks?), and then... I'll cherish the memories. Know that I can do it again... and I'll be happy to start down that next path with a fresh "character sheet" - I don't need to have a "bonus level" for past accomplishments. No need to give me a leg up on my next set... Heck, I know I can do it now, Perhaps it wont take me 9 years to do it again.

And I'm going to bet I'll have even MORE FUN doing it the second time thru! If we "salvage" some for the next edition? Can I just "opt out" and start from "1st level"? I'm going to enjoy earning them anew...

Hay HMM! Race ya! First one to their second "2E Star" brings the brownies!

Scarab Sages 5/5

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James Anderson wrote:
Tallow wrote:
But having some sort of legacy bonus for your commitment to PFS1 should definitely be allowed. Perhaps in the form of a boon that grants 500gp, 1XP, 2PP to a character of choice times the number of stars you have. And that character can get a special title (with escalating moderate bonus per star) from a short list, so when you introduce your character at the table, everyone will know that you were an N-star GM in PFS1.
Not good enough. A one-time boost to one character is not the right scale. If they are to go away, the compensation should be on-going, and should apply to all your characters.

I disagree. That could really break the balance of the game if just because you GM'd a crapload in PFS1 all your characters get a significant bonus. That wouldn't be fair to everyone else. We need to find a happy medium/compromise.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Gary Bush wrote:

Take a breath time folks!

No official word has been given on what will happen with GM Rewards. Nothing has changed! We are only talking about could be changed or what we would like to see.

Thank you and carry on.

Except its been stated by Tonya that GM stars will not carry over in the same capacity. So we are discussing what that means and what they could mean in PFS2.

The Exchange 5/5

Kevin Willis wrote:

I obviously have a few stars at stake in this discussion.

But I'm going to come out in favor of not doing anything that puts those with stars "ahead" of those without. Most particularly don't give us a jump-start on the symbols in a new campaign.

PFS 2.0 is a great opportunity to bring in new GMs. Level the playing field, as it were. So any 2.0 reward for a 1.0 5-star needs to have absolutely no mechanical effect. No reason for anyone to think they are already starting a lap down.

I kinda like the idea of a race boon. It would have to be something that has a cool flavor but is clearly not mechanically superior to any race that new players could take.

The "Playable Specials" idea does strike me as having potential. Maybe give GMs of 4-star and above access to a PFS 2.0 Season 1 Exclusive. Something that only we can run for the first year. But again, it can't give us a leg up on reaching the top of the new charts. So if 2.0 uses a similar qualification system (must have 10 specials for 5 stars), this scenario wouldn't count towards that total.

I got 5 stars because I enjoy GMing and ended up with 150 tables and 10 specials. It just happened gradually over time. But I do know there are people for whom the star level (and the rewards it offers) is a goal in itself. Those new recruits are the people I do not want to alienate by starting off "ahead."

I liked this post by Kevin Willis enough to boost it to the top of the heap again. I second Kevins post...

and I liked "GM Glyn"'s post about using "...Moons, chevrons or diamonds..." Yeah Diamonds. Sounds great. Leave in the Stars and just tack on some Diamond... Recognizing my 2E accomplishments without diminishing the recognition of my 1E ones.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
I have no problem with the idea that we will have to re-earn specials, and build towards whatever requirements that you decide apply towards 5 star status in the new campaign. It will be a new campaign, and so we should put in some work to earn our places there.

Except Cosmic Captive. That special should count for ALL campaigns! :)

——

More seriously, they need the people who helped build the current campaign to help transition to the new campaign. It isn’t a restart — it is a transition. The story built now continues forward.

That said, it also shouldn’t be all about the number of games. I do think there are things that can be done to make the top levels be more than they currently are. The first few stars are about quantity and showing you have can do the basics. After that, it should start being about giving to the community, developing the skills to be able to guide others in a fun way, and sharing in the community that we have here.

I don’t think they should transfer everything, but they still shouldn’t cause us to start over.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Consider for a moment though:

One thing that stars signify is a certain level of proficiency or rules mastery. Whether that is assumed rightly or not isn't really the issue. If a bunch of 5-star GM's all agree on a rule, its more likely that the group of 5-stars is going to be given more weight on the rules argument than a group of 1-star GMs.

If that group of 5-star GM's can't agree amongst themselves, then its likely a rule that needs clarification.

The new system appears to be different enough, that 5-stars shouldn't carry that same weight or authority.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Tallow wrote:
The new system appears to be different enough, that 5-stars shouldn't carry that same weight or authority.

I disagree in that I disagree that stars should carry that much weight in an argument. There are plenty of 5 stars who have learned bad habits from someone else and never got challenged on them. There are plenty of players who have never GMed in PFS and have perfect recall of the rules. So that shouldn't be the reason to argue against stars carrying over.

Stars represent time spent volunteering in the organized campaign.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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Knowledge of the rules isn’t the only way to judge the quality of a GM.

The rules provide a structure to adjudicate a character’s ability to perform a certain task or what happens in response to an event. They do not tell the story, they just allow players and GMs to have a way to adjudicate the results of an attempted action within the story.

I think that at the higher levels you should also be able to show you can help players use the rules to achieve the effect they want. If someone asks to try something outside the normal mechanics, a great GM will be able to suggest ways using the rules structure to attempt that action.

A great GM should also be able to help new players learn the game. This takes patience and understanding. It can be frustrating, especially at a convention where you may be low on sleep and have a tight schedule in which to finish a scenario. Still, it is an important part of building the community.

There are other qualities of great GMs as well. Different GMs bring different things to the game.

2/5

A possibility:

Much like the new support boons, give out 'legacy' boons on the start of Season 11.

A model for that could be:
A pool of 6 boons
1-2* GMs can pick one boon
3-4* can pick two boons
5* can pick 3 boons

Ideally these boons are either
a) One-time and pretty powerful (Play a rewritten Aasimar or Tiefling char)
b) Long lasting but limited in scope (The ability to slot a reroll, or the ability to replay 1 scenario every season)

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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If you offer a legacy boon for tengus, I know a certain GM that might be motivated to collect more 1e stars!

Hmm

PS I really should join the "Tengus for 2e!" campaign. Although I have never had a tengu character myself, I really do enjoy GMing for my feathered friends.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Tallow wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:

Take a breath time folks!

No official word has been given on what will happen with GM Rewards. Nothing has changed! We are only talking about could be changed or what we would like to see.

Thank you and carry on.

Except its been stated by Tonya that GM stars will not carry over in the same capacity. So we are discussing what that means and what they could mean in PFS2.

Pretty sure that is what I said.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Jack Amy wrote:
I look forward to the challenge of earning 15 'stars'.

I don't.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Bret Indrelee wrote:

There are other qualities of great GMs as well. Different GMs bring different things to the game.

I don't think that the bar for 5 stars SHOULD be "you have to be a great GM" (however that is defined and measured).

Currently it is essentially a mark of amount of service and I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with people like Hillary seeing it as a chance to strive harder and harder. But I think that she is in the minority, most of us see it as an almost automatic reward tied to amount of service

PFS needs GMs. At least locally it has been a constant struggle to find GMs. And I know that at least some other areas have the same problem.

One of the prime goals of the star program is to reward GMs for stepping up. Not carrying stars over seems like a huge step backwards.

I'm finding myself having an emotional reaction to this. I feel that I'm being dismissed, that my contributions are no longer being valued. Totally emotional and largely immature and irrational though it probably is, my immediate reaction to being told that my stars won't carry over is to think that its time to quit as a GM. I don't like feeling under appreciated :-(.

I currently DO have 5 stars and therefore have earned all the benefits that I'm going to get. I still regularly GM. So, obviously, I don't need the stars to get me to GM. I don't know if trying to "encourage" 5 star GMs to keep GMing by taking their rewards away is part of the motivation but if it is I think it is a policy that may well backfire

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Paul Jackson wrote:
Bret Indrelee wrote:


There are other qualities of great GMs as well. Different GMs bring different things to the game.
I don't think that the bar for 5 stars SHOULD be "you have to be a great GM" (however that is defined and measured). Currently it is essentially a mark of amount of service and I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with people like Hillary seeing it as a chance to strive harder and harder. But I think that she is in the minority, most of us see it as an almost automatic reward tied to amount of service.

But being a great GM is supposed to be the bar. The current (9.1) RPG Guide says this about earning your fifth star.

Quote:
Run a Roleplaying Guild session in the presence of a member of the Pathfinder Society leadership team or a Venture-Captain. Throughout the session, this designated representative will evaluate your rules knowledge, improvisational skills, preparation, and ability to provide a fair and fun experience for all involved Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild players and recommend the granting of a fifth star.

3.0.3 is the earliest Guide I still have a copy of and it was even more explicit about it (and it was a lot harder to earn since only one person could make 5-star GMs).

Quote:
Four-star GMs are eligible to obtain a fifth star based on the quality of their play. If a 4-star GM attends any convention that the campaign coordinator is personally attending and the campaign coordinator witnesses you running a scenario and find your GMing mojo to be excellent, he will award you a fifth star. Five-star GMs are the cream of the crop.

I've played with 5-star GMs who really shouldn't be 5-stars. Ones who don't prepare well (if at all) or can't improvise if things get a little bit off the track. Because it has become automatic. No VC is going to tell her most prolific GM that he isn't 5-star worthy. If anything I see PFS 2.0 as a chance to reset this and make 5-star mean something again. Make us prove ourselves once more!

I'm not saying 5-stars need to be perfect. I most assuredly am not. But it has become too automatic.

BTW, in that 3.0.3 Guide there was no "150 games, 50 different scenarios, and 10 specials" requirement. 4-star was the recognition for GMing 100 games. 5-star was the recognition for GMing 100 games and being freaking amazing.

1/5

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

If you offer a legacy boon for tengus, I know a certain GM that might be motivated to collect more 1e stars!

Hmm

PS I really should join the "Tengus for 2e!" campaign. Although I have never had a tengu character myself, I really do enjoy GMing for my feathered friends.

The danger is burnout.

I've burnt out at least twice That I *know* of possibly as many as a half-dozen times.

Each time has been worse than the time before. It's why I pace myself.

It's part of why I'm very, very, very choosy on what I run and when I volunteer to run.

I don't want to have the Last Great Hurrah sending me to the hospital, the psych ward, or whatnot. It's not good for the campaign, it's not good for my fellow GMs, and it's not good for me.

But yes, we should start a Tengus for 2e! Soon.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Kevin Willis wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:


I don't think that the bar for 5 stars SHOULD be "you have to be a great GM" .

But being a great GM is supposed to be the bar. The current (9.1) RPG Guide says this about earning your fifth star.

Quote:
evaluate your rules knowledge, improvisational skills, preparation, and ability to provide a fair and fun experience for all involved Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild players and recommend the granting of a fifth star.

We may well be arguing semantics but I don't think that describes a "great" GM. Not even sure that definition requires a "good" GM. The GM would have to be at least "decent" admittedly.

I don't consider myself a great GM but I believe I definitely pass the bar described above. There are very few GMs I'd consider "great" and at least one of them (Hmm) doesn't even have her 5th Star yet :-).

But its moot anyway. As you point out, the process more or less means that you'd almost have to be actively bad to not pass the test. And restricting who can sign off is no solution since that would restrict 5 star GMs ridiculously by a geographical or who can go to major cons basis which is pretty patently unfair (and presumably the reason they changed things oh so many years ago :-)). I can't see Second edition changing that.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Tallow wrote:
James Anderson wrote:
Tallow wrote:
But having some sort of legacy bonus for your commitment to PFS1 should definitely be allowed. Perhaps in the form of a boon that grants 500gp, 1XP, 2PP to a character of choice times the number of stars you have. And that character can get a special title (with escalating moderate bonus per star) from a short list, so when you introduce your character at the table, everyone will know that you were an N-star GM in PFS1.
Not good enough. A one-time boost to one character is not the right scale. If they are to go away, the compensation should be on-going, and should apply to all your characters.
I disagree. That could really break the balance of the game if just because you GM'd a crapload in PFS1 all your characters get a significant bonus. That wouldn't be fair to everyone else. We need to find a happy medium/compromise.

I agree 100%. Especially since GM stars don’t have much of a mechanical benefit for PC’s in PFS right now (except for the GM star boon and the bonus to the once a scenario reroll).

5/5 ⦵⦵

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Blech. I personally don't even play anymore so boons and rewards are a matter of indifference to me. Wiping the slate clean and forcing me to start again is just asking me to burnout because it's functionally telling me my efforts were for nothing and in a 'what have you don't for me lately' move, I'm being tossed out with the garbage unless I run the new hamster wheel.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Colchester

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If the new campaign does decide to have scenarios that are exclusive to 4* and 5* GMs, then I would like to see those scenarios available to 1E PFS GMs that have already put in that time.

I think GMs should still be able to earn 1E stars, and those stars should be displayed on the message boards still. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I certainly have a degree of pride in having earned them.

I don't know how popular it would be with the existing 5*s and other GMs who are working hard towards the 5* requirements, but it might be necessary to relax the requirements for that prestigious 5th star as it gets progressively more challenging to earn with no new specials being released and fewer players available to play them. Or just make Bonekeep evergreen ;)

4/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, legitimate questions since the FAQ says we'll continue to report 1st edition scenarios: will people be able to continue accumulating 1st edition stars after August 2019 rolls around? If the answer to that is yes, how does that impact further discussion on 2nd edition boons?

I would think that the majority of the star additions are automatic, based on the reporting of scenarios you GM, but that could theoretically just be turned off. I would also think that there's not a compelling reason to have significant boons locked behind 1st edition stars if folks are trying to migrate to 2nd edition. 1st edition will continue to see a lot of play for quite a while, I suspect, given that there will not be a deep pool of scenarios at launch for 2nd edition compared to 11 seasons of 1st edition.

Honestly, my preference of bonus would probably be something like "your reroll bonus is equal to the higher of your star/nova count for the system you're playing or 1/2 the total of all stars/novas for Paizo Organized Play." 1st edition 5-stars then have a small boost to a small thing across all the platforms at launch and it continues to encourage people to pursue additional GM rewards.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

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John Compton wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Tallow wrote:

I'm not so much worried about what my Stars mean in PFS2. I'm fine with reverting to zero stars. I'm also fine with keeping stars and having a new designation for PFS2.

I just hope that my Campaign Service Coin remains viable.

That's actually a VERY important point...

Otherwise the new campaign is saying something VERY not nice about the previous campaign and those who have busted their ass to make PFS what it is today.

Just to nip this idea in the bud: expect the Campaign Service Coin and Order of the Wayfinder to still provide a benefit in the new campaign (much as they offer a benefit in Starfinder Society).

For me the star system is a recognition for the time and effort one put in for the organized campaign, just as the Campaign Service Coin and the Order of the Wayfinder are. Those later are recognitions of additional work over and beyond the effort one who GMs puts in.

However it seems that some forms of recognitions (the Coin and Order) will carry over between campaigns while others (Stars) will not. Can someone explain why that is?

Scarab Sages 4/5 ⦵⦵

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I will add to Hmm's rant a bit.

I came back to PFS after missing seasons 3 though 6. When I saw one of my "newbie" players from San Diego get her 5th star a few years ago, I felt like I should have gotten mine as well. So I decided to work on it. I am spitting distance to my 4th now, and have a plan to get 5th elegable by Origins or PaizonCon 2019.

Not this is sort of a bit of a blow. The 150 tables are still doable, but it is the special requirement that still requires planning.

I am not sure if I will continue to crank out another 50 PFS tables over the next 14 months, or will I get my 4th star and just work on Starfinder novas. I like the "badge of honor" that goes with the stars. I just would have like some more time to relish in it before starting over again :)

The Exchange 3/5

How about a fame/prestige system?

Fame- This would be a pool of spendable points that would start at zero after each reboot. This would provide bonuses, items, etc to keep the power curve flat between new and old players.

Prestige - This would be a cumulative total between reboots that would allow for a motivated new GMs to catch up to those with years under their belts. This number would offer more flavor boons- titles, unlocks, etc.

We would all be both starting fresh and building on the tens, hundreds or thousands of hours invested.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I know I don't have the history that alot of other 4 and 5 star gm's have. Heck, I probably don't have alot of the history that some 2 and 3 star gm's do. I got my 4 stars mostly from running a static group of friends through the emerald spire from top to bottom. I mostly play online, and because of that, alot of my cultivated friendships in PFS are online in nature. I do however keep tabs on my local meatspace peoples (except apparently for my venture captain, who i only "met" online recently). I was able to advertise our online presence to our local group, especially for newer players who had some questions. One of these local players became a regular fixture in GMing online. He did an entire campaign arc dealing with the Blackros family, sometimes even running the same scenario 2 or 3 times a week just to help other people get caught up. I believe he got to 3 stars just from all that.

He recently offered me all of his boons, because he decided to ragequit Pathfinder Society. He felt like all of his hard work had been for naught, and he decided to go back to console gaming. I told him that I would hold onto his boons for him, in case they decided to do something special with them come 2E. I wonder how many other people have similar stories of friends or other loved ones who've decided to do something similar, if not themselves?

Personally, this is my first foray into organized play. I have, however, been playing video games for a long, long time. I know what it's like to invest money into a system, get some enjoyment out of it, and then feel a little lost when they announce the second iteration of a series and then don't let you carry progress forward. Change sometimes requires a new foundation, and I for one, will continue to play pathfinder, probably both 1e and 2e, for as long as it'll let me.

As much as I would love to see some benefit from what I've previously given to pathfinder, a clean, level playing field would probably be what's best for the game as a whole. At the very most, possibly a scaling benefit based on the number of stars/games you've already hosted, but I do foresee everyone starting with no stars (or whatever they decide to use as credit). They won't remove our current stars, because of requirements for 1e (running scenarios and such). I know it's a harsh truth, but I do feel like it would be best for the campaign moving forward. When they release 3e in another 10 years, it'll probably happen again.

Dark Archive

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Im still planning and working on getting my 5th Star.

I have faith in the campaign leadership to make our stars mean something, so that our six hundred + hours of time means something.

But hey, if it doesn't, it was still a wild wacky ride to make it or break it baby.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Memphis aka Mulgar

I didn't read everything here but I feel that stars and novas should be getting a new friend, call them wayfinders or whatever. Since the PFS1e is still continuing why should I get credit in a new PFS for work in the old.

But there should also be a reward in PFS2 for hours given to PFS1, but why should it be limited to what your star level is at the beginning of the new campaign? Why not have a GM boon sheet that has rewards based on your gm stars and your PFS2 wayfinders?

So if you have both stars and wayfinders you can gain ever more useful results. Some thing like borrowing items from other characters (if both characters have the fame to use them) for a limited number of times. Things like that.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Rhode Island—Lincoln aka Upaynao

I'd personally settle for a waiving of the requirement for 10 specials.

150 tables, One final table adjudicated by a VC or higher, that's all fine, its the march of the specials that makes me sigh.

5/5 ⦵⦵

The Specials were the worst part, agree there.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Gregory Rebelo wrote:

I'd personally settle for a waiving of the requirement for 10 specials.

150 tables, One final table adjudicated by a VC or higher, that's all fine, its the march of the specials that makes me sigh.

These days we have a number of scenarios that require 4 stars that count for your special requirement.

Personally, I am not too thrilled that in theory you could just run APs in home games and get a lot of stars, it feels a bit unfair to those who offered public tables. So if we are changing the star calculations, I would like to see a minimum number of required public tables.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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The big issue there is that the system would need some way of tracking publicly run games and given how the system hiccups like the dickens as is that doesn't seem realistic.

2/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Douglas Edwards wrote:
The big issue there is that the system would need some way of tracking publicly run games and given how the system hiccups like the dickens as is that doesn't seem realistic.

....GenCon 50 *cough* and my *cough* Specials, public tables, and *cough* second star.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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I think there should be a different designation for PFS2. Gold stars instead of mauve? Purple horseshoes, blue diamonds, rainbows? Pick your marshmallow.

But if my stars from the previous campaign still show, even if I have to earn new marshmallows, then any respect or trophy sharing that having stars displayed would still hold.

Something I think should carry over is the specials, variety number, anything other than sheer quantity, for 5 stars. So all I need is 150 PFS2 credits to get my 5 marshmallows.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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For the Purpose of this Conversation all Stars, Novas, & Marshmallows are ‘Lucky Charms’

Tallow, please unpack for me.

So you want the number of specials needed for 5 Lucky Charms to be fulfilled whether you earned them with PF1 or PF2 credits, right?

So...

1) if you have 10 PF1 Specials + 150PF2 Credits you can earn 5 PF2 Lucky Charms.
2) if you have 10 PF2 Specials +150 PF1 Credits you can earn 5 PF1 Lucky Charms.
3) if you have 7 PF1 Specials + 3 PF2 Specials + 150 games in either campaign, you can earn 5 Lucky Charms for whichever campaign you acheived the 150 games in.

Okay, I can see the merits in this proposal.

Oddly though... that’s not what I want. I think the 10 specials in a campaign requirement is important. I was really intimidated by the idea of doing specials at first. I would have never started GMing specials if the 10 special requirement did not exist for 5 star — and that would have been a loss to everyone. Specials helped me level up as a GM, because they forced me to bring my A game. They were good for me, good for my tables, good for the campaign as a whole.

Though Cosmic Captive threw me for a loop TWICE, my rematch with it taught me so much. It was an overly complicated monstrosity — too clever for itself, crushingly hard to prep, confusing to most of its players — but man, I learned so much doing it. Sitting in the Overseer Seat for the PBP run of Cosmic Captive made my head explode, but it gave me a unique understanding of the game. It was a level up for all the GMs we had too, because our GM hangout was full of questions, rules calls, etc.

But Hilary, that was PBP. You all had time to ask questions. GMs in Face to Face games don’t have that luxury.

Still, group prep exists. There are GM threads where GMs unpack scenarios, and try to figure out how they work. For real life, sometimes we have Slot Zeros or GM meetings.

And even if you don’t get enough prep the first time you GM a special, the ten special requirement ensures that you will try again — so you learn how to be better. If you are like me, you analyze specials, looking for ways to speed up your pace while still keeping your players engaged and in the loop.

Don’t get me wrong. I think that future specials should be more like Assault on Absalom then Cosmic Captive. Still, GMing specials is a nifty thing. It’s a learning thing. They sell tickets at conventions and bring an entire room of strangers together into a major adventure where the whole room is one team.

All of this is saying that I want the opposite of Tallow. I want part of my tables to carry over as starter Lucky Charms in the new campaign, but I think that the Specials requirement should stay.

It will be interesting to see how this all settles out, and which way they go with all of this.

“They’re always after me Lucky Charms!”

Hmm

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Only difference is that my proposal would be that 150 games would be specific to the campaign.

The reason I don't think quantity of games GM'd should carry over to whatever new lucky charm we get for GM'ing PFS2, is because its a new rules set. And as you say, doing it helps us level up as a GM.

Should I really be seen as an ubiquitous 5-star GM, if I don't have at least 150 games of experience GM'ing the new system?

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online aka Magabeus

I do not mind that we have to start anew on these PFS2 moons, just as we had to start anew on SFS novas. It is a new campaign, so we have to earn those moons from ground up.

What I don’t like is that holders of the campaign service coin and order of the wayfinder will receive a benefit in PFS2 (and SFS), while they also received their coin/order for something they did for PFS1, just as we received our GM stars for running games for PFS1. I can’t help but feel that some animals are better than other animals.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

I think the past should honored but that future should reflect the past.

What I mean by this that the earning of "Lucky Charms" in PFS2.0 should start from the beginning. Yes everyone starts at 0 tables and moving up from there. This is the "future should reflect past" part of my statement.

I also agree that effort put forth under PFS1.0 should be honored going forward to PFS2.0. There have been a number suggestions that I think will do this.

The extra bump that a GM gets in PFS2.0 needs to be fair but overly large.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Gerard van Konijnenburg wrote:

I do not mind that we have to start anew on these PFS2 moons, just as we had to start anew on SFS novas. It is a new campaign, so we have to earn those moons from ground up.

What I don’t like is that holders of the campaign service coin and order of the wayfinder will receive a benefit in PFS2 (and SFS), while they also received their coin/order for something they did for PFS1, just as we received our GM stars for running games for PFS1. I can’t help but feel that some animals are better than other animals.

The coins and wayfinders are by definition better than other contributions, thats the point.

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