How do I slay a BBEG who has +25 saving throws across the board


Advice


I am playing a Witch and am wondering how to kill an enemy caster that has sky high saves across the board. My Evil Eye will only sack there saves -4 which really isn't doing much vs the enemy. How do I deal with this threat? What do your first three or four rounds of combat look like vs an enemy like this?

Assume Witch has the ability to cast 8th level spells


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Empowered enervation
Quickened enervation

Repeat until dead.

If you have access to 8th level spells that means you can gain spell perfection. Assuming a 32 Int at that level and greater spell focus you could be looking at around DC33 if you pick a high level spell for it. Not a huge chance but not bad.

Persistent spell is likewise a great choice for making enemies more likely to fail saves.


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you probably want to let your party deal with them, and support them with buffs and battlefield control. use evil eye and cackle to debuff their ac, if you have fortune, throw it on your martials. since they're a caster, you can cackle and still ready an action to counter spell. I can't speak for sure since I don't know any other information, but if you've been steamrolling things as a witch, it's possible this boss is meant as a chance for the rest of your party to shine. either that or just use spells that still have an effect on a save.

Grand Lodge

Could be that the caster is out of your legue, and you should wait a couple of levels?


andreww wrote:

Empowered enervation

Quickened enervation

Repeat until dead.

If you have access to 8th level spells that means you can gain spell perfection. Assuming a 32 Int at that level and greater spell focus you could be looking at around DC33 if you pick a high level spell for it. Not a huge chance but not bad.

Persistent spell is likewise a great choice for making enemies more likely to fail saves.

Touch AC 20, I cant land consistently


Thirdhorseman wrote:
you probably want to let your party deal with them, and support them with buffs and battlefield control. use evil eye and cackle to debuff their ac, if you have fortune, throw it on your martials. since they're a caster, you can cackle and still ready an action to counter spell. I can't speak for sure since I don't know any other information, but if you've been steamrolling things as a witch, it's possible this boss is meant as a chance for the rest of your party to shine. either that or just use spells that still have an effect on a save.

Ahh, which BFC spells would you suggest? I'm a bit lacking in the buffing department but I guess I could pickup Fortune hex which I don't have right now.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Use spells with no saving throw or that have a useful effect even on a successful saving throw.

Use spells that affect the environment, or that buff your allies, instead of trying to target the enemy directly.

Summon critters that can fight for you. Every hit they absorb is one less hit against you and your allies.


Waves of exhaustion is a useful no-save debuff. Solid wall spells are BFC with no save. Maze will get the BBEG out of there if you want to buff or deal with their minions first - no save again. Waves of ecstasy will stagger the enemy for 1 round even if they make the save.


Summoning and ranged touch attacks would be good.


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Ill Omen is a solid debuff. Limp Lash, any of the various swarm summons (saves still fail on a 1 and swarms can force it every round), Power Words, Scouring Winds, Source Severance (if you know what kind of caster they are), the various Whip of <swarm> spells, Volcanic Storm, Ice Storm, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, all spells with no save that probably help against casters. You say touch AC 20 and "can't land consistently", how? You're looking at at least +7 BAB, +Dex (should be at least +3 or 4 by level 15, probably more like +6), and Heroism/Greater Heroism (+2 or +4). That's between +12 and +17, that seems like plenty.


avr wrote:
Waves of exhaustion is a useful no-save debuff. Solid wall spells are BFC with no save. Maze will get the BBEG out of there if you want to buff or deal with their minions first - no save again. Waves of ecstasy will stagger the enemy for 1 round even if they make the save.

Hmm not bad, I did look at maze the thing is that DC 20INT check will be likely passed on the first round.


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Atalius wrote:
avr wrote:
Waves of exhaustion is a useful no-save debuff. Solid wall spells are BFC with no save. Maze will get the BBEG out of there if you want to buff or deal with their minions first - no save again. Waves of ecstasy will stagger the enemy for 1 round even if they make the save.
Hmm not bad, I did look at maze the thing is that DC 20INT check will be likely passed on the first round.

Likely isn't certain unless they have +19, which is unlikely even for a boss. And at the least it costs them a full-round action.


Lead off with Prediction of Failure and Waves of Exhaustion. Cast a Barrow Haze to give yourself concealment and take away his Dex to AC and then go the Enervation route.


If the BBEG’s current HP is below 201 Power Word Blind will work. Harm does 150 hp damage with a save for half.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Ill Omen is a solid debuff. Limp Lash, any of the various swarm summons (saves still fail on a 1 and swarms can force it every round), Power Words, Scouring Winds, Source Severance (if you know what kind of caster they are), the various Whip of <swarm> spells, Volcanic Storm, Ice Storm, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, all spells with no save that probably help against casters. You say touch AC 20 and "can't land consistently", how? You're looking at at least +7 BAB, +Dex (should be at least +3 or 4 by level 15, probably more like +6), and Heroism/Greater Heroism (+2 or +4). That's between +12 and +17, that seems like plenty.

The black tentacles may be thwarted I'm not sure, hmm maybe I should try to buff my attack rolls as you say to land enervation. An empowered enervation might be just what the doctor ordered as Andreww suggested earlier.


Grailknight wrote:
Lead off with Prediction of Failure and Waves of Exhaustion. Cast a Barrow Haze to give yourself concealment and take away his Dex to AC and then go the Enervation route.

This is pretty solid, they will take a -4 from Evil Eye, a -3 to reflex saves from Exhaustion, and a -4 to all saves from being sickened and shaken. We are looking at a -8 to fort and Will and a -11 to Reflex, its a good start. I was thinking at this point a quickened ill Oman followed up with a Misfortune, if it lands I'm in business...

Do I cast the barrow haze on my enemy to give myself concealment or on myself?


Prediction of Failure is really a winner for this situation, as noted. Depending on the caster, you can theoretically shut them down via Object Possession by possessing their component pouch and inverting it or possessing their holy symbol and moving in such a way as to no longer be a holy symbol. Surrounding the caster with 1d3 bebiliths via SM 8 is a pretty good option, too.


Atalius wrote:
Do I cast the barrow haze on my enemy to give myself concealment or on myself?

Barrow haze gets cast on an area.


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Atalius wrote:
I am playing a Witch and am wondering how to kill an enemy caster that has sky high saves across the board.

The first answer that jumps to mind is to have higher DCs.

Atalius wrote:
My Evil Eye will only sack there saves -4 which really isn't doing much vs the enemy. How do I deal with this threat?

Witches get to spam their Hexes again and again, and any failed save sucks. If you can keep plugging away at those hexes, some might get through.

Also, people are mentioning attacks that allow no saves. Those sound like good ideas. Black Tentacles got mentioned, so also, I'll throw in Strangling Hair and Web, 2 more Grappling Spells. My other answer would be to Grapple the caster, as you know. But this time, you are playing your Witch and not your Tetori :P

*Khan* wrote:
Could be that the caster is out of your legue, and you should wait a couple of levels?

A tactic I'm quite fond of is Antimagic Field. If the caster is out of your league, then squelch all the magic--yours and his--and then everyone else in the party just jumps on the enemy caster. I used to really like this tactic for 3.5 Monks with the Vow of Poverty Feat. Your Witch wouldn't just happen to have an Entropic Patron, would she?

Thirdhorseman wrote:
you probably want to let your party deal with them, and support them with buffs and battlefield control.

I like that answer. That's what your party is for. There is no way make a Will Save vs. Bull Strength cast on the party Barbarian.

Atalius wrote:
What do your first three or four rounds of combat look like vs an enemy like this?

I suppose the first thing you need to do is find the caster. If the caster knows you're coming. You have to defeat or circumvent all the caster's guards and traps once you have even found where on the map the caster is. My expectation is that if your assault the Wizard's castle, and destroy all his minions, the Wizard will teleport away before you even reach him, then plot his bloody revenge from some secret chamber.

But assuming you circumvent the guards and traps, and you've got into the evil Wizard's withdrawing room, the Wizard can't or won't run, and now is the time for you and him to open your cans of Whoopass...

Round 1, the archers ready actions to shoot the wizard as soon as he starts casting anything. The melee characters run in and get him. You cast Antimagic Field or start casting buffing spells on the melee characters.

Round n: if you don't have Antimagic Field, and if you run out of buffing spells, then cast those no-save attack spells. Then spam your Hexes.


Spells:
Primary: No-save and party buffs
Secondary: Save-or-Suck (Works even on a save for lesser effect)
Tertiary: Environmental (fog, silence on a area, deeper darkness, and other things to make the BBEG's day bad)
Quaternary: Everything else

Note: Grease on the ground can make him unsteady and maybe fall.

Equipment:
Tabglefoot bag (unlikely to lock position, still entangled for 2d4 rounds)

Hexes:
Evil-Eye
Forced-Reincarnation (make it change bodies and become young. Good vs. dragons, maybe your BBEG. New body might not handle equipment as well)

Feat:
Persistent Spell

Combat:
Intimidate for demoralize (more penalties to saves)
Ready damage for when the BBEG casts, requiring a concentration check vs. a penalty (better than counterspelling, I think)

/cevah


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Atalius wrote:
I am playing a Witch and am wondering how to kill an enemy caster that has sky high saves across the board.

The first answer that jumps to mind is to have higher DCs.

Atalius wrote:
My Evil Eye will only sack there saves -4 which really isn't doing much vs the enemy. How do I deal with this threat?

Witches get to spam their Hexes again and again, and any failed save sucks. If you can keep plugging away at those hexes, some might get through.

Also, people are mentioning attacks that allow no saves. Those sound like good ideas. Black Tentacles got mentioned, so also, I'll throw in Strangling Hair and Web, 2 more Grappling Spells. My other answer would be to Grapple the caster, as you know. But this time, you are playing your Witch and not your Tetori :P

*Khan* wrote:
Could be that the caster is out of your legue, and you should wait a couple of levels?

A tactic I'm quite fond of is Antimagic Field. If the caster is out of your league, then squelch all the magic--yours and his--and then everyone else in the party just jumps on the enemy caster. I used to really like this tactic for 3.5 Monks with the Vow of Poverty Feat. Your Witch wouldn't just happen to have an Entropic Patron, would she?

Thirdhorseman wrote:
you probably want to let your party deal with them, and support them with buffs and battlefield control.

I like that answer. That's what your party is for. There is no way make a Will Save vs. Bull Strength cast on the party Barbarian.

Atalius wrote:
What do your first three or four rounds of combat look like vs an enemy like this?
I suppose the first thing you need to do is find the caster. If the caster knows you're coming. You have to defeat or circumvent all the caster's guards and traps once you have even found where on the map the caster is. My expectation is that if your assault the Wizard's castle, and destroy all his minions, the Wizard will teleport away before you even reach him,...

Ya the Tetori would have had a field day vs this caster for sure. That inescapable grasp is the stuff of legend. For this Witch I have the Time patron, unfortunately will not be able to get Time Stop because the campaign ends at level 8 spells (16 total) the GM said. Antimagic field is a beauty I will add that to the arsenal. Good to see you posting on the forums haven't seen you in a long time.


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Do you know if your enemy is an arcane or divine caster?
Either way,
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/source-severance/
should do.
If he is a divine caster, you can cast and he has to fight an antimagic field... (remember to load up on concentration boosters, and don't forget that scrolls, staves, etc are not casting a spell).
If he's an arcane caster, add a Druidic (ie Divine source) scroll of Shapechange and some UMD (and more Divine source buff spells to taste).

Either way, you should be able to cause some trouble. His casting shouldn't hurt you, and his buffs are suppressed if you close...


Could be an arcane caster, but as a Witch so am I.


With prediction of failure, evil eye, and feeblemind (-4 vs arcane casters) that would be a -12 saving throw leaving the bbeg with a +13 will save vs feeblemind. A quickened Ill Oman + Feeblemind may be the ticket IF the enemy isn't immune to mind-affecting spells. With a 28 INT and a fifth level spell that's a DC of 24. So enemy would need to roll 11 or better twice or basically die. Not the best odds, but certainly not the worst either. If that was a Heightened feeblemind (doubt I would ever do this) up to a level 8 spell that would certainly almost guarantee success with the enemy having to roll a 14 or better twice.


Atalius wrote:
Could be an arcane caster, but as a Witch so am I.

IF he's an arcane caster, that's why your carrying around a druidic (ie. divine) Shapechange scroll (I assume you have maxed UMD). You get to close, suppress all of his spells and kill him in melee, with all of his buffs suppressed.

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