Reincarnated as a cooshee, need assistance


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Never been reincarnated before, how am I supposed to convert my stats, gear, abilities and such?


The only way you could have become a cooshee is through "DM Choice," so I'd work with the DM on stats & abilities (and innocently ask them if they thought this through exactly... Will they allow retraining feats so you can have suitable impact to replace what the party is now missing since you cannot do many things as a basic cooshee?)

Gear is just gear.

It does not change with you, this was not a polymorph or wild shape where it is absorbed into you or whatnot. You are an elven dog now. Which could be pretty cool. Your gear is on the floor, you do not have opposable thumbs to pick it all up and keep it, maybe the other PC's will leverage the gear into more "usable" things for a cooshee PC.

I'd give it a shot -- play a reincarnated PC into a cooshee.

If this was at low levels, multiclass into Sorcerer so you do not need anything to cast spells. If higher levels, well, you need the cooperation of your other players to gear you up and stay relevant. In fact, scratch that -- you will need the help of the other players to help outfit you from here on out unless or until you are able to gain a humanoid form...


No hands means no weapons, no rings, no somatic components, no fine manipulation, no wands, staves, rods, or shields. No voice means no verbal components or command words. No (normal) feet means no boots. Quadrupedal shape means armor will have to be custom-made.

Not sure what abilities you have, but there's a 90% chance you're completely SOL with 'em.


reincarnate
Class? Gear? Level?


Yeah, cooshee could be fun, but it’s going to be a big adjustment regardless of your previous race. If you’re unhappy with the results (and don’t want to create a new PC), maybe you can get the druid to, um, try again?

Shadow Lodge

Unless you were a magical beast to start with, Reincarnate shouldn't be turning you into one. Unlike previous editions, the spell isn't supposed to remove a PC's hands or ability to talk. If you're not happy about this, talk to the GM about something a little less unusual.

If you're on board with this plan, great, and if you give us more details about your character we can provide more help. Cooshee should get +4 Str, +6 Dex, and +4 Con (minus previous racial adjustments), low-light vision, scent, +3 natural armour, 40ft base speed (possibly with sprint, ask your GM), natural attacks (Bite d8 plus grab or trip and 2 claws d4), and racial skill modifiers:

cooshee wrote:
+4 Stealth *Due to their coloration, the racial bonus to Stealth checks increases to +8 in their natural environment (forest). **Cooshee have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


I am genuinely curious as to what set of circumstances led up to this predicament. Not "how your character died" but "how they came to be reincarnated as something ordinarily impossible to be reincarnated as"?

Also, do dogs have a "prehensile appendage", could a quadruped kineticist work?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I am genuinely curious as to what set of circumstances led up to this predicament. Not "how your character died" but "how they came to be reincarnated as something ordinarily impossible to be reincarnated as"?

Also, do dogs have a "prehensile appendage", could a quadruped kineticist work?

Dogs have no prehensile appendages. They can't grasp things with their paws or tail.

Really, this guy just got screwed unless the game allows psionics.


Druid should work as a new class, there is a feat that allows casting in a beast form, though I can't recall name at the moment.
*edit* Reincarnate would now be on your spell list, so who ever was responsible for your current life, as well as party members poking fun, just remind them that if they have an unfortunate accident, you'll be able to bring them back *grins*


Zhanye, you and yours might be playing a different style of game where he would be screwed. He would not be in my games if I did this. Not everyone plays the same. I don't think he is screwed at all unless the DM & other players do not want to try.

Honestly, so many players figure out so many creative, esoteric (or even obvious) work-arounds in Pathfinder that negate disadvantages that this can still work.

Depends on the DM and the possiblity of retraining Feats and the other players and how they play their PC's. The OP is not automatically boned.


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I have to ask: does your character now have urges to drop slimy tennis balls on the feet of the other PCs and then stare soulfully up at them in the hopes that they'll throw it?


I was a human 7 investigator 2 Master Chymist. Another PC used reincarnate and I rolled a d100 and went by a list. Lol.


TheKid wrote:
I was a human 7 investigator 2 Master Chymist. Another PC used reincarnate and I rolled a d100 and went by a list. Lol.

Do you have access to this list? Is it in a book we can reference?


My advice is to use this line:

reincarnate wrote:
A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.

25000 is a lot less than what it would take to buff you up, and miracle doesn't always have the component (i.e. you can get it for under 4k as a scroll)

Shadow Lodge

You shouldn't need a Wish to get a humanoid reincarnation result.

TheKid wrote:
I was a human 7 investigator 2 Master Chymist. Another PC used reincarnate and I rolled a d100 and went by a list. Lol.

Sounds like the typical Reincarnate list with a "GM choice" result.

Except I would expect the GM to choose something like ratfolk, tengu, or changeling - unusual humanoid races.

There is a reason why 3.5/PF took things like badger and bear off the reincarnation table, and it's because it can be disruptive.

For example, as a cooshee you will be unable to mix or drink extracts or mutagens. You will also have a hard time using social or knowledge skills, unless you can find a magic item that would allow you to speak.


Sideromancer makes a good point. It will be cheaper to pay to have it reversed/changed than to try to outfit level-appropriate to your new form at 9HD.

Oh, well... I was kinda looking forward to future posts of your exploits as superdog.

SQUIRREL!


A Mage Hand Spell will let you function fairly normally as if you had hands. A Hand of the Mage is fairly inexpensive, and it gives you permanent Mage Hand. The Feat Natural Spell will let you cast while shaped like an animal. I forget the name of the Feat that lets you talk, Wild Speech?

You can also talk to the party with use of the Bluff Skill.

I don't think you need to talk to use your Alchemal Extracts, nor do I think you will need Natural Spell. Mage Hand should do it.

If you really need to become a person, you might use the Extract of Alter Self, which lets you transform into a Humanoid. I suppose you might start taking levels in Goliath Druid and Wild Shape into Giant Humanoids.


.


Scrapper wrote:
Druid should work as a new class, there is a feat that allows casting in a beast form, though I can't recall name at the moment.

That only works for a Druid in wild shape ... which would be hilarious, since he'd have to shift away from one animal into another to cast spells.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A Mage Hand Spell will let you function fairly normally as if you had hands. A Hand of the Mage is fairly inexpensive, and it gives you permanent Mage Hand. The Feat Natural Spell will let you cast while shaped like an animal. I forget the name of the Feat that lets you talk, Wild Speech?

You can also talk to the party with use of the Bluff Skill.

What's that? Little Timmy's severed torso is down the well?


mardaddy wrote:
Zhanye, you and yours might be playing a different style of game where he would be screwed. He would not be in my games if I did this. Not everyone plays the same. I don't think he is screwed at all unless the DM & other players do not want to try.

I believe the long list of 'things he can't do anymore' qualifies as being screwed, especially since all his class abilities have been neutered on top of everything else I said.


I'm not sure that you can use Mage Hand without fingers.

CRB wrote:

Mage Hand

You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance...

Shadow Lodge

Mage Hand also doesn't work on magical objects, so you couldn't manipulate "magical potion-like extracts."

If the GM bends the rules on that, and waives the "fingers" issue, we're on to communication challenges:

You don't qualify for Wild Speech without Wild Shape.

Communicating a secret language via Bluff requires a shared language:

Convey Secret Message wrote:
If you are successful, the target automatically understands you, assuming you are speaking in a language that it understands.

...unless you have Expressive Pantomime, but that only works with "simple messages" and still requires a DC 20 check.

The Ring of Eloquence could give you speech, but dogs don't have ring slots. Might be able to get it on a different slot as a custom item? A Circlet of Speaking could work, except that you're not actually an animal (cooshee are magical beasts). Helm of Telepathy definitely works if people are willing to fail saves vs mindreading, but is expensive.

Note that in total you're missing 5/14 item slots: two ring slots, the body slot, the hands slot, and the feet slot. And we're talking about potentially using another two to mitigate the "can't talk and can't manipulate objects" downsides that aren't supposed to be caused by Reincarnate.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I suppose you might start taking levels in Goliath Druid and Wild Shape into Giant Humanoids.

Needing to take 6 levels in druid to assume humanoid form is a huge investment, especially since as an investigator the character is unlikely to have much of a Wis score to make use of the casting.

Shadow Lodge

Should point out that despite the above I'm not saying the situation can't work out and be fun. As a Master Chymist you're probably a melee, natural weapons build, and the cooshee's stats are pretty good for that. The senses and skill bonuses are also nice (and I forgot to add Darkvision to the list).

If the group fudges things to allow you to manipulate extracts and communicate without too much difficulty, it could be very playable, with neat roleplay. Depending on how much re-gearing you have to do, it might even be a short term boost.

But because turning into a dog isn't an expected or intended risk of Reincarnate, you shouldn't have to go along with it if you don't think it will be fun.


Weirdo wrote:
Mage Hand also doesn't work on magical objects

That's dumb. You can use Mage Hand to pick up a dagger, but not if it's a +1 dagger? Rubbish.

Mage Hand wrote:
Target one non-magical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lbs.

And there's the garbage. That explains the stink. Still, it's worth asking the GM. Anyway, even if it is just a partial solution, a Partial Solution is better than none.

Weirdo wrote:
so you couldn't manipulate "magical potion-like extracts."

The rules are not at all clear that an Alchemal Extract is a magical object. My Pathfinder Society Venture Lieutenant outlawed the use of the Sipping Jacket with Extracts, for example.

Weirdo wrote:
You don't qualify for Wild Speech without Wild Shape.

The OP is clearly in a situation where there is a lot of GM Caveat going around. It's worthwhile to ask. Also, it would be a great idea for him to take or retrain to get 4 levels in Goliath Druid and get himself Wild Shape. That would totally solve his problems. And Goliath Wild Shape makes a very good match with Master Chymist. The OP is a Master Chymist.

Weirdo wrote:
Needing to take 6 levels in druid to assume humanoid

He only needs 4; then he can use his Wild Shape as Alter Self. Anyway, he can also take Shaping Focus, which makes him Wild Shape as if he were level 8.

Weirdo wrote:
as an investigator the character is unlikely to have much of a Wis

That might be awkward, fair to say. Maybe the GM will let him be animal Shifter that Wild Shapes into a Human.

Perhaps he can contract Lycanthropy and become a Dog that sometimes turns into a Human when the Moon is full.

Again, the OP is clearly in GM Fiat Country.

Shadow Lodge

Not sure if you saw my most recent post, where I did that it would be fine with some fudging in the player's favour. Just wanting to make sure it's not a case of a GM thinking that this is how the spell is supposed to work, or giving the player a hard time on purpose, or even just that because they enjoyed being reincarnated into a badger in 3.0 the OP would find it neat.

To continue clarifying rules in question:

Agree not being able to handle magic items with Mage Hand is lame (and oddly allows you to use it as a limited Detect Magic in a pinch - if you can't move the dagger, it's magic).

Extracts aren't potions, which is why they don't work with the sipping jacket. But they definitely are magical:

Investigator wrote:

Alchemy (Su)

Investigators are highly trained in the creation of mundane alchemical substances and magical potion-like extracts.

Like an alchemist, an investigator prepares his spells by mixing ingredients and a tiny fraction of his own magical power into a number of extracts, and then effectively casts the spell by drinking the extract. These extracts have powerful effects, but they are also bound to their creator. Extracts behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by dispel magic and similar effects, using the investigator’s level as the caster level.

Pretty sure Alter Self kicks in at level 6:

Goliath Druid wrote:

Druids’ ability to wild shape into a creature of the animal type allows a goliath druid to assume only the form of a dinosaur or megafauna. She doesn’t gain the ability to become an elemental or plant.

At 6th level, the goliath druid can use wild shape to become a Large humanoid of the giant subtype. This functions as the alter self spell, except the goliath druid gains a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +1 natural armor bonus.


Weirdo wrote:
Pretty sure Alter Self kicks in at level 6:

I feel a little silly for missing that part, but recall I am also recommending he take the Shaping Focus Feat which will add 4 levels for the purposes of Wild Shape.

Weirdo wrote:
Agree not being able to handle magic items with Mage Hand is lame (and oddly allows you to use it as a limited Detect Magic in a pinch - if you can't move the dagger, it's magic).

What if the magic dagger were sitting on a plate? Would you be able to move the plate with the dagger on it?

I get that extracts are "magical potion-like extracts" and they are "like spells in potion form." but it is not clear to me what constitutes a "magical object." Meanwhile, reviewing the description of the process, it looks like extracts are nonmagical until the moment he puts in that "tiny fraction of his own magical power" into it. Maybe he can time the mixing so that it isn't magical until the moment it is in the open flask in his mouth. I know I'm getting cheesy, but it also is cheesy to powerjam the OP by not letting him function as an Alchemist even if he invests in a Hand of the Mage.

Also, I'm fairly certain that Mage Hand is intended to be able to work in this way technically correct though your arguments may be: I read a Pathfinder novel where one of the characters was a Naga who created magic potions by using Mage Hand.

Shadow Lodge

You're right, you did mention Shaping Focus, which would reduce the investment to 4 levels and a feat. It's still a lot, and OP would need some other ways to speak and manipulate objects during those 4 levels.

I'm pretty sure I recall Adventure Paths with rules errors, so I'm not exactly inclined to make assumptions about RAI based on novels. I mean, having a naga make potions with Mage Hand is cool, and it feels like it should work.

The other thing I'm not keen on about the Hand of the Mage plan is that it's taking up the neck slot, which competes with the AoMF that OP would need now that the natural weapons build is mandatory.

I would hope that the GM allows you to add the (house ruled to work with extracts) Hand of the Mage powers onto an AoMF. Suggested price by the item creation guidelines would be cost of AoMF + 1350gp.


Have your intelligence drained to 2, then have someone cast awaken on you.


I miss cooshees.


Thanks for all the time input guys. Our game is a bit silly to begin with. So he’s allowing much more leniency for my result. I am a awakened Cooshee. So speaking isn’t a bit deal. As for gear, he is letting me convert it. I may rework the character to more of a melee focus, currently he is the rogue of the group, but can mutatevand fight if need be.


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Well, if this is a light hearted game, I would suggest picking up Leadership to get a cowardly hippy cohort who will feed you your extracts and mutagens in the form of "Scooby Snacks".

Shadow Lodge

Glad that worked out!


The Scooby snacks thing is a great idea

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