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Especially for illusionists and even more so for Gnomes, it seems to me like Ventriloquism is a far better spell than silent image.
I think a lot of people interpret the spell to mean that a successful save gives away the casters position, but in reality, it only means the sound is obviously a fake. The next round you can speak again from anywhere else in range, and the enemy has to make a second save or they really believe that the sound is coming from over there. I see a lot of people mistakenly think that ghost sound is the better spell, because it is 0th level but, unless it is cast silently, it is useless for creating a distraction because you will still be standing relatively close to your target casting a spell at full volume. Then there is the big added bonus that Ventriloquism can be cast in advance and requires no concentration, and can create a minute plus of distraction just through witty banter.
Illusion magic will always be subject to GM interpretation and require a GM to do work that they may not want to, so it is important for players who want to be illusionists to work out things like, how can I hide my casting and what will constitute interacting with my illusions, but for an invisible caster, ventriloquism can frustrate the enemy even more effectively than silent spells since it can send them to attack the wrong space. So discussion question:
Is ventriloquism overlooked because too many players assume that they can get away with quietly casting spells just outside of doors or from empty corners of the room? Or is it because the idea of having a buff that lets your voice sound like it is coming from anywhere within a 25ft+ area not clearly mechanical enough for a lot of people to think about using when they are making a character on paper?
It is a will save to disbelieve the spell and recognize it as an illusion. Nothing in the text supports your interpretation of multiple saves and I certainly wouldn't allow that as a GM.
With your invisibility idea, the theory is fine, but the mechanics are lacking. There aren't really any rules for convincing someone you are where you are not, there is just a perception check to find you. Presumably it would negate the -20 penalty to perception DC from speaking while invisible, meaning they would, absent anything else need a DC 40 check to pinpoint you, but there isn't any way for that to easily translate to thinking you actually are somewhere where you are not. Since at low levels things aren't going to have a good enough perception to pinpoint you anyway, and after low levels all to often they won't be using perception instead of something else, there isn't a huge time when this tactic would achieve any benefit.
Ventriloquism can be a useful distraction tool, but it is quite difficult to use in most situations. You generally have to know what a where the things you are going to be distracted are, and what sort of things will work on them, all to often even when you come across a situation where it would be useful, by the time you are aware of that it is too late. And of course it has the potential to backfire, if they realize it is a fake, then all you have done is put them on alert.
I think it is a spell that has it's uses, but I don't think it would ever be on my 'always have' list, let alone 'always have multiple times' even if I was playing an illusion focused character.
For ventriloquism, it explicitly states that hearing is interacting no actions required: "anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory"
I am not sure if you would be multiple chances to succeed or not, I don't believe I would allow that unless something changed enough to make it reasonable, but I am pretty certain that if someone succeeds on their save against the spell, they won't have to save against that spell again.
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@Dave Justus. The spell specifically states: "With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)." Doesn't that pretty specifically state that it is the sound itself that causes the will save? Making a new sound in a new location would seem to require a new save, because it is not the casting of the spell that grants a save, but the making of a sound. As a GM, I would probably require a save each round the caster made a sound from that same location until the listener makes their save, so trying to hold someone's attention would be difficult, but the point of my original post is to ask whether or not ventriloquism is the far more reasonable spell to use for creating a distraction than silent image or ghost sound, both of which tend to get a lot of love from people on these boards, but mostly because they imagine it easier to cast spells without giving themselves away than it should probably be.
With ventriloquism, invisibility isn't even really necessary if you have a decent stealth ability, which really should go hand in hand with being an illusionist. Or even without stealth, still spell would suddenly let you cast spells and make it seem like the verbal component of that spell originated from someone else.
But the real advantage in my mind is that a silent image might buy you one round of distraction if the viewer makes their save, but once they do, the entire spell is pretty much spent, and even if they don't make their save, your caster is stuck concentrating for as long as you need to keep the illusion up. Now I am still a fan of silent image and think it has many nifty uses, but for the illusion dabbling wizard, I think it is a mistake to uphold silent image as one of the greatest first level spells, when ventriloquism, save or not, can often accomplish the same basic thing and often times for longer, causing a distraction someplace other than where you are, without giving away your exact position.
A lot of folks play with the rule that you can use perception to pinpoint where a sound comes from with a DC 20 check. It is even listed as an unofficial option on the PFSRD perception page.
Ventriloquism states: "Will disbelief (if interacted with)"
I agree with you everything you have to say about this part of the text, but I have found that the spells of pathfinder are not always consistent between the spell description and the header text. The spell description pretty clearly contradicts this, or defines "interact with" in the case of this spell as hearing the sound. But even with that automatic save, the spell itself is still pretty useful. They still hear the sound from the location that you made it, it just also sounds illusory.
It doesn't seem hard to figure out ways to use that to your advantage. is an illusory whisper near someone's ear while you are engaged in a diplomatic dialog going to seem like spies are present and trying to misguide them? combined with misdirection or even just magic aura there is a lot of wiggle room for this spell to be completely effective wether the save is made or not, based upon your ability to anticipate what the listener would do if they realized that someone is trying to deceive them.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
With respect Gallant Armor I think the spell is unambigous in its description and is the opposite of your opinion
"anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)."
Crystal clear , if you hear the sound you get a save. I may give additional saves if someone spends time studying the illusion but everyone gets a save the first time they encounter the spell,
2. You need to interact with the sound created by spell
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"anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory" ≠ "anyone who hears the sound receives a will save to recognize it as illusory"
My eardrum moves back and forth when I hear things. How is that not "interacting" with the spell?
Or are you saying you have to find some sound (which is not visible or touchable) and do something else with it beyond hearing it?
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A visual illusion can be interacted with. You can use touch and smell to interact with a visual illusion.
Can you describe an action that is "interacting" with an auditory illusion?
No, you're talking about interacting with the *source* of the illusion, not the illusion itself.
The save applies if you interact with the illusion, not the source of the illusion.
I appreciate the general interest in the topic of the ventriloquism, and I understand that the answer to when the save is triggered would affect the utility of the spell and how it would be used, but it seems like a debate about when the save is triggered is a question for the rules board and possibly a request for a FAQ.
Personally, I find the spell useful even if (as I have always assumed) it does trigger a save upon first hearing the sound. What I don't understand is why the spell gets trashed in forums and guides while silent image usually gets glowing reviews. I think it may be that people generally dismiss spells that don't have a visual component because they are probably more used to thinking creatively about visual medium.
Interacting with an auditory illusion could be as simple as hearing the sound. "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus." Or maybe requiring a move action for Perception "study it carefully" = "Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action." At minimum, attempting to talk to it = "interact with it in some fashion." If no legitimate response comes from the illusion as you attempt diplomacy or whatever, bam, saving throw. It's up to the GM whether you even need to take an action or if you just get the save (is merely hearing the illusion enough via passive perception).
Based on this, I would lean towards spend an action:
"Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion."
Then, you need make exactly 1 save.
Ventriloquism:
"You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)."
There is nothing in here that you need to make multiple saves. Even when you do make multiple saves for other spells, it's usually in the target's benefit, like with Hold Person. You keep saving to get out of it, or the duration runs out. You don't get forced to make saves until you fail.
The duration on the spell is 1 minute per level, and not concentration. The caster doesn't keep the spell going, so the prospective victims don't need to save after their first success.
Interesting argument and one I am not sure on: one argument is the last line of: If *hearing* counts, then should just *seeing* count as extrapolation...? - the common sense ruling probably comes into play: i.e. if you are expecting an invisible foe, etc., should you at least check the area the effect is coming from to make sure it is not real?
If I "hear" a noise right behind me, I do not know if it is real or not until I turn around and check the area out...
Does this need FAQ ruling, because does it have an effect on how the feat Threatening Illusion works...?
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There is nothing in here that you need to make multiple saves. Even when you do make multiple saves for other spells, it's usually in the target's benefit, like with Hold Person. You keep saving to get out of it, or the duration runs out. You don't get forced to make saves until you fail.The duration on the spell is 1 minute per level, and not concentration. The caster doesn't keep the spell going, so the prospective victims don't need to save after their first success.
For most figment illusion spells, you definitely need to make only one save. The issue with ventriloquism is that the spell gives you an ability to make illusory noises (plural) for the duration. It doesn't require you create and maintain only one illusory sound.
Now the hearer might learn to recognize the voice and grow suspect immediately about new sounds, but if I use disguise to change my appearance and someone makes a successful perception check to see through it, they don't immediately recognize me the next time I attempt to disguise myself do they? Ventriloquism is different from most other figment illusion spells because it is by itself not creating any noticeable effect on its own. The spell makes it pretty clear that it is the sound that a listener is making the save against, not the spell itself. Thus a new sound in a new location would require its own different save.
A great many illusion spells allow you to move the illusion within the spell's area as long as the spell is ongoing. That doesn't mean those affected by the spell have to make a new save just because the first illusory orc appeared to die and a new one seemed to pop up over there. All Ventriloquism is is an auditory-only illusion with a massive area. When you save against a spell you save against the entire spell, not just that portion (unless the specific spell says otherwise, which this one does not)
@shinigami the spellactually does specify that the save comes after the sound and the save is to disbelieve that that sound is real. There are very few illusion spells that would let you make a new orc appear after the spell has been cast. You might make the orc appear to get back up or change beneath their eyes, but you don’t get to make a brand new illusion appear with the same spell. Ventriloquism on the other hand specifically let’s you do just that, and @gallant, the spell is also pretty specific about it being the sound that grants a save. I think at my table, the closest reading of the spell would be every sound made grants a save upon first hearing to see if it is believed. Now, I agree that the general rules of figments suggest that figments must be interacted with to be disbelieved, but the wording on this spell is close enough to ghost sound to make that a point of ambiguity, whereas the conditions of what a successful save means is not, that sound is clearly illusory.
It is firmly established that a specific rule in a spell overrides more general rules for spells. This makes the Ventriloquism effect clear hear the sound make a save.
On the other hand it is a fairly feeble 1st level spell so if you choose to ignore the rules and run it an other way it is not going to break the game.
Unless you are a PFS GM in which case you should really follow the rules.
So in retrospect, it looks like the answer to the question: why is ventriloquism so frequently dismissed as a 1st level spell, while silent image is not, is because there is more general confusion about how the spell works. (Even though there seems to be a general lack of census there too.) Although I think there is still a general favoritism towards visual effects for players, and the duration of ventriloqism is an exploitable advantage to the creative player.
There are very few illusion spells that would let you make a new orc appear after the spell has been cast. You might make the orc appear to get back up or change beneath their eyes, but you don’t get to make a brand new illusion appear with the same spell. Ventriloquism on the other hand specifically let’s you do just that,
You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).
We must be looking at different Ventriloquisms then, because I see nowhere where it "specifically lets you... make a brand new illusion appear" to use your own words. I'd be willing to allow moving your illusory source, but there's nothing about making a new one. On the other hand, the Image spells do specifically allow:
You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Which means that you can have the first orc die and maybe it, like, bursts into flames or something, or phases out like a summoned creature, something that leaves no body... and then you move the illusion over there and there's now a brand new orc. Realistically they'd be as likely to know that is the same illusion as they'd be to know your new sound is the same illusion, but people are trying to give a new save for Ventriloquism but not the Images.
Anyone interested in discussing how Ventriloquism works should definitely check out this thread,
paizo.com/threads/rzs2uwi8?What-does-it-mean-to-interact-with-an-illusion#4 9
Ultimately, the utility of Ventriloquism includes its use as a distracting spell, which it has the massive advantage over silent image of not requiring concentration, but also includes the fact that, even if your opponent makes their save, you have not given away your position, and you can continue to communicate from any position within the range for the entire duration, without having to cast a spell again that would require a verbal component from your location. As far as multipurpose spells go, yes it is a first level spell, but it can accomplish almost half of what message, ghost sound and silent image can do, with only one spell slot.
Many GMs let ghost sound and message be cast without drawing the attention of NPCs, so the overall utility of the spell will be subject to the conventions of the table, but I think the various spell guides have Ventriloquism under rated and Silent image overrated as first level illusions. It also has the advantage of having no somatic components.
I think many people's innate creativity probably lends itself more towards what can be accomplished with a visual illusion instead of a verbal one, but I encourage players to consider how effective verbal trickery can be in their games and not underestimate the importance of not having to concentrate on a spell to be able to still use it again if the deception works.