Rage power that adds an attack?

[Lemartes]

I think it works with rage. However, others don't think so and I do think that the wording could have been a bit better.

[Overlap Pete]

Unfettered doesn't stack with Haste. Right there it's already a waste.

Wild Fighting stacks with Haste.

At levels 7+ most good groups get hasted at the beginning of a fight...

[Lady-J]

Chess Pwn wrote:

So the question was ways to get extra attacks that weren't haste. "there are many more ways than just haste to get an extra attack"

So all the different ways to get haste don't meet this.
Boots of speed is haste so it doesn't count.
Speed weapon does count, but will be coming in quite late due to cost.
And wild fighting counts too, is what the OP is using, and stacks with the feat for even more attacks.

So so far we have speed weapon that counts and doesn't stack. Seems like this feat is in a pretty good space.

the boots of speed does count as while it grants haste like bonuses it is not actually casting the haste spell, the wild fighting doesn't count as it an ability that grants an extra attack which doesn't stack with the rage power as the rage power doesn't stack with any ability that adds extra attacks, depending on the barbarians willingness to multiclass you can also get flurry of blows with sohi monk, or if you have a ranged build rapid shot works with none of the drawbacks of the other ability

[Chess Pwn]

Overlap Pete wrote:

Unfettered doesn't stack with Haste. Right there it's already a waste.

Wild Fighting stacks with Haste.

At levels 7+ most good groups get hasted at the beginning of a fight...

Right, the praise of this feat was always under the assumption that your party doesn't have reliable or constant access to haste.

[Lady-J]

Cheburn wrote:

A Speed weapon is not a viable option for most campaigns, because of the absurd cost associated with adding it to a +X weapon. Assuming you're level 10 and are adding it to a +2 weapon, you're looking at 42,000 GP. That's almost 70% of your WBL for a single enhancement (and over 80% for a single weapon). These numbers get worse if you're trying to add it to a +3 weapon. That's not something I would want to plan for in most campaigns.

Boots of Speed are great, but as noted by Claxon, there is a significant opportunity cost associated with using the Feet slot.

To me, Unfettered Rage looks like a very nice feat. If I were playing a Barbarian, I would strongly consider picking it up. It also has the benefit of working even if Haste is dispelled, or if Haste is not up for a given encounter. The downsides aren't that big, given the potential damage increase when the feat is being used and the lack of feat taxes to pick it up.

all those costs go down with crafting

[Chess Pwn]

Lady-J wrote:

the boots of speed does count as while it grants haste like bonuses it is not actually casting the haste spell, the wild fighting doesn't count as it an ability that grants an extra attack which doesn't stack with the rage power as the rage power doesn't stack with any ability that adds extra attacks, depending on the barbarians willingness to multiclass you can also get flurry of blows with sohi monk, or if you have a ranged build rapid shot works with none of the drawbacks of the other ability

Boots of speed grant haste to you, that's haste.

The feat doesn't stack with haste effects. Wild fighting isn't a haste effect. Thus the feat works fine with wild fighting.

[Chess Pwn]

Lady-J wrote:

Cheburn wrote:

A Speed weapon is not a viable option for most campaigns, because of the absurd cost associated with adding it to a +X weapon. Assuming you're level 10 and are adding it to a +2 weapon, you're looking at 42,000 GP. That's almost 70% of your WBL for a single enhancement (and over 80% for a single weapon). These numbers get worse if you're trying to add it to a +3 weapon. That's not something I would want to plan for in most campaigns.

all those costs go down with crafting

Stupid crazy high being cut in half is still crazy high.

[Lady-J]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

the boots of speed does count as while it grants haste like bonuses it is not actually casting the haste spell, the wild fighting doesn't count as it an ability that grants an extra attack which doesn't stack with the rage power as the rage power doesn't stack with any ability that adds extra attacks, depending on the barbarians willingness to multiclass you can also get flurry of blows with sohi monk, or if you have a ranged build rapid shot works with none of the drawbacks of the other ability

Boots of speed grant haste to you, that's haste.

The feat doesn't stack with haste effects. Wild fighting isn't a haste effect. Thus the feat works fine with wild fighting.

wild fighting wile not haste would still be prevented from being used with the rage power, its not just haste effects that the rage power cant be used with, its all abilities that grant extra attacks

[Chess Pwn]

Lady-J wrote:

wild fighting while not haste would still be prevented from being used with the rage power, its not just haste effects that the rage power can't be used with, its all abilities that grant extra attacks

You are correct, it seems I was getting the wording backwards. I was thinking "This benefit does not stack with haste or similar effects"

while it's actually "This benefit does not stack with similar effects, such as haste"

[Lemartes]

You mean wild fighting and the feat unfettered rage (ie: which is not a rage power)???

[Chess Pwn]

Lemartes wrote:

You mean wild fighting and the feat unfettered rage (ie: which is not a rage power)???

Yeah, the effect of the feat is the extra attack, and it says it can't work with anything that is similar, such as haste. Meaning haste is an example of what can't work and not the thing that can't work.

[Lady-J]

Lemartes wrote:

You mean wild fighting and the feat unfettered rage (ie: which is not a rage power)???

weather or not it takes a feat slot to get or a rage power slot, it requires rage to work and thus is a rage power(albeit one that you can only get by spending a feat and not a rage power slot)

[Lemartes]

Yes, but I'm just making sure we're talking about the same thing.

[Lemartes]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

You mean wild fighting and the feat unfettered rage (ie: which is not a rage power)???

Yeah, the effect of the feat is the extra attack, and it says it can't work with anything that is similar, such as haste. Meaning haste is an example of what can't work and not the thing that can't work.

Thanks. Therefore, there is no point in going Wild Rager. :)

[Lady-J]

Lemartes wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

You mean wild fighting and the feat unfettered rage (ie: which is not a rage power)???

Yeah, the effect of the feat is the extra attack, and it says it can't work with anything that is similar, such as haste. Meaning haste is an example of what can't work and not the thing that can't work.

Thanks. Therefore, there is no point in going Wild Rager. :)

there still is, if you have access to the haste spell or another way to get bonus attacks then wildrager is better then the feat, wildrager also doesn't need to be raging to get the bonus attack so in circumstances were you want to save rage you can still get the extra attack

[Lemartes]

Thanks. However, I don't feel it's worth it with the loss of control.

[Lady-J]

Lemartes wrote:

Thanks. However, I don't feel it's worth it with the loss of control.

there are ways to mitigate/remove that risk, upping will saves, reducing the severity of the confused effect, finding a way to become immune to the confused condition or just flat out immunity to mind effecting effects(such as some how gaining the undead type) altho the last one is a bit more difficult to come by if your dm isn't willing to let it happen

[Lemartes]

Yeah I think my rough idea had a fairly high will save. Regardless, it's still resources that could be better used elsewhere. :)

[Diego Rossi]

Chess Pwn wrote:

So the question was ways to get extra attacks that weren't haste. "there are many more ways than just haste to get an extra attack"

So all the different ways to get haste don't meet this.
Boots of speed is haste so it doesn't count.
Speed weapon does count, but will be coming in quite late due to cost.
And wild fighting counts too, is what the OP is using, and stacks with the feat for even more attacks.

So so far we have speed weapon that counts and doesn't stack. Seems like this feat is in a pretty good space.

A weapon Speed enhancement is an Haste effect.

[Overlap Pete]

wild fighting + unchained flurry of blows + haste = 3 additional attacks?

[The Sideromancer]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

Cheburn wrote:

A Speed weapon is not a viable option for most campaigns, because of the absurd cost associated with adding it to a +X weapon. Assuming you're level 10 and are adding it to a +2 weapon, you're looking at 42,000 GP. That's almost 70% of your WBL for a single enhancement (and over 80% for a single weapon). These numbers get worse if you're trying to add it to a +3 weapon. That's not something I would want to plan for in most campaigns.

all those costs go down with crafting

Stupid crazy high being cut in half is still crazy high.

Suppose an item is cost N, which is crazy high. N/2 is still crazy high, as is (N/2)/2. Since an arbitrarily large cost is trivially crazy high, and the definition makes no distinction of powers of 2, all costs are crazy high.

[Stephen Ede]

Chess Pwn wrote:

So the question was ways to get extra attacks that weren't haste. "there are many more ways than just haste to get an extra attack"

So all the different ways to get haste don't meet this.
Boots of speed is haste so it doesn't count.
Speed weapon does count, but will be coming in quite late due to cost.
And wild fighting counts too, is what the OP is using, and stacks with the feat for even more attacks.

So so far we have speed weapon that counts and doesn't stack. Seems like this feat is in a pretty good space.

"When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)"

Weapon ability Speed doesn't stack.

[Cheburn]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

Cheburn wrote:

A Speed weapon is not a viable option for most campaigns, because of the absurd cost associated with adding it to a +X weapon. Assuming you're level 10 and are adding it to a +2 weapon, you're looking at 42,000 GP. That's almost 70% of your WBL for a single enhancement (and over 80% for a single weapon). These numbers get worse if you're trying to add it to a +3 weapon. That's not something I would want to plan for in most campaigns.

all those costs go down with crafting

Stupid crazy high being cut in half is still crazy high.

Suppose an item is cost N, which is crazy high. N/2 is still crazy high, as is (N/2)/2. Since an arbitrarily large cost is trivially crazy high, and the definition makes no distinction of powers of 2, all costs are crazy high.

It's not an "arbitrarily large cost." Expected wealth by level (which the discussion above is clearly based on) gives a benchmark for what costs are reasonable in a normal campaign. If you're playing in a game with 4x WBL and crafting, the sure, Speed is a nice enhancement. Otherwise, the Speed weapon enhancment is too high of a fraction of WBL to be a good investment in most campaigns.

Generally, spending significantly more than around 25% of your wealth by level on a single weapon is not the best idea, because you're then starved for money for your other essential items. I'm quite confident that 80% of your WBL on a single weapon can safely be called 'stupid crazy high.' 40% of your WBL (cost with crafting) on a single weapon is around 1.6 times what you'd normally want to spend, so 'crazy high' is still a reasonable description. Half of that again is 20%, which is actually quite reasonable, so ... yeah. Making a reductio ad absurdum argument against a straw man doesn't really contribute to the discussion.

However, even if you were willing to spend that amount of gold on a Speed weapon, I suspect you'd be better off just putting it on the weapon a straight bonus. That is, for almost any melee character, I'd rather have a +5 weapon than a +2 speed weapon.

[Derklord]

Lemartes wrote:

I think it works with rage. However, others don't think so and I do think that the wording could have been a bit better.

Well, apparently, some people believe the world is flat.

I agree the wording could have been better, as the "even when not" part is utterly redundant (it's not like it's the first Barbarian class feature that works when not raging). But the wording is still beyond any doubt.