Why is shortbow a martial proficiency, when so many that have simple weapons proficiency also get it for free? Why isn't shortbow just a simple weapon?
Why is shortbow a martial proficiency, when so many that have simple weapons proficiency also get it for free? Why isn't shortbow just a simple weapon?
Probably to make crossbows attractive to people with minimal ranged weapon acumen, since otherwise a shortbow is just a better choice than a crossbow. A shortbow is better than a crossbow in the sense that you can make iterative attacks without a feat, and that's why it's martial.
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Dragonborn3 is correct. Proficiency does not affect the weapons in which one is proficient.
Then does the weapon training trait not apply, as we know it was intended to, because that doesn't seem to effect the weapon either?
What is the text in question even supposed to be doing? Because almost every effect like that targets the user and not the weapon itself.
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Does it even work with Fighter Weapon Training, because that doesn't effect the weapon either.
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
So, the fighter gets the effect and not the weapon.
Or are we saying that being in a fighter weapon group is an effect? Because then why wouldn't being in the list of proficient weapons be an effect?
Per Advanced Armory 2 the Hornbow is in the Fighter weapon group "bows" so weapon training works just fine.
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The weapon training trait mentions training specifically in the use of traditional Ulfen weapons, which the hornbow is not. So it wasn't intended to work with the hornbow. It was intended to work with the specific weapons listed in the trait.
Can I ask for examples of something that it DOES work with it as everything I'm thinking of don't seem to affect weapons anymore under that interpretation.
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The weapon training trait mentions training specifically in the use of traditional Ulfen weapons, which the hornbow is not. So it wasn't intended to work with the hornbow. It was intended to work with the specific weapons listed in the trait.Can I ask for examples of something that it DOES work with it as everything I'm thinking of don't seem to affect weapons anymore under that interpretation.
Agree. That rules text is now nearly pointless. There might be a few magic weapon effects it catches, but I can't think of anything else worded in such a way as to effect the weapon instead of the person wielding it.
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Per Advanced Armory 2 the Hornbow is in the Fighter weapon group "bows" so weapon training works just fine.
Cool. I was just responding to this, but nice catch:
Weapon Focus needs to be Weapon Focus (hornbow) to affect this weapon, because you normally need to take it twice to affect both long- and shortbows, while a fighter's weapon training would apply to the hornbow because bows encompasses both long- and shortbows.
I was just trying to see what Moreland thought this ability might actually work on, and that was the only example I had.
One can treat this as future proofing in order to be able to use "Longbows and Shortbows" as shorthand for "bows that are not crossbows". If they roll out a weapon enhancement only for bows- long, short, and horn they would not need to reference a non PFRPG book (in case this is an issue, hardcovers don't reference softcovers) or use an awkward construction like "Bows that are not crossbows."
So now if they're hard at work on Planar Adventures and want to have something that works with bows including hornbows but not crossbows, they don't need to print the hornbow or reference AA2, they can just make it apply to long and shortbows.
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One can treat this as future proofing in order to be able to use "Longbows and Shortbows" as shorthand for "bows that are not crossbows". If they roll out a weapon enhancement only for bows- long, short, and horn they would not need to reference a non PFRPG book (in case this is an issue, hardcovers don't reference softcovers) or use an awkward construction like "Bows that are not crossbows.
I guess that's all it's good for now, though we know the author's original intent wasn't just future proofing.
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One can treat this as future proofing in order to be able to use "Longbows and Shortbows" as shorthand for "bows that are not crossbows". If they roll out a weapon enhancement only for bows- long, short, and horn they would not need to reference a non PFRPG book (in case this is an issue, hardcovers don't reference softcovers) or use an awkward construction like "Bows that are not crossbows.
This. If the text doesn't apply to anything you're using on your PC, then ignore it.
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Good to see the intention behind the rule.
Seems to be more the codification of an unspoken rule:
"Effects, that affect the user while using a weapon, don't count as affecting that weapon used, for other effects."Wow that's a mouthful. No wonder they never wrote it down. Hope it doesn't have any side-effects...
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Good to see the intention behind the rule.Seems to be more the codification of an unspoken rule:
"Effects, that affect the user while using a weapon, don't count as affecting that weapon used, for other effects."Wow that's a mouthful. No wonder they never wrote it down. Hope it doesn't have any side-effects...
Give it time.....2 maybe three weeks before one of the following.
1. List of rules or abilities now broken by this.
2. People pointing out that it's not the Dev account so it's just opinion.
3. List of reasons why it works even though we were told it doesn't.
Give it time.....2 maybe three weeks before one of the following.
1. List of rules or abilities now broken by this.
That'll be fun, but nothing has jumped to mind yet and not a lot of effects are designed to target other effects, so it's fairly likely nothing else broke, but maybe...
2. People pointing out that it's not the Dev account so it's just opinion.
Maybe, but Moreland is pretty high up the totem pole.
3. List of reasons why it works even though we were told it doesn't.
Probably.
It apparently doesn't work with Stabbing Shot now, as that doesn't effect the hornbow. The hornbow rules text seems to just be vestigial of the author's intent now and may serve as future proofing for something that could theoretically happen some day.
Can I ask for examples of something that it DOES work with it as everything I'm thinking of don't seem to affect weapons anymore under that interpretation.
Any enchantment that can be used with both longbows and shortbows, any feat that can be used with longbows and shortbows (so Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, etc but not Prone Shooter).
Given it is described as being made of bone, I’m not sure if you could get a Darkwood Hornbow. My initial inclination is no, but perhaps there is something I’m not considering.
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Those feats don't effect the weapon, but the person using it. And I couldn't find a weapon enchant the text actually makes a difference with, but I didn't look that hard.
I'm honestly not going to be surprised if someone finds something somewhere that the hornbow text actually works with, but it wouldn't be much.
Stabbing shot is using an arrow in melee, so type of bow really shouldn’t matter.
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Stabbing shot is using an arrow in melee, so type of bow really shouldn’t matter.
It shouldn't matter, but it apparently does. If your bow isn't a longbow or a shortbow, you are sadly out of luck. I guess you need the counterbalance of those bows when making the arrow attack?
Those feats don't effect the weapon, but the person using it. And I couldn't find a weapon enchant the text actually makes a difference with, but I didn't look that hard.
Yep, feats seem to do nothing to the weapon anymore. It would seem that it only applies to spells/enchants and I can't think of any. IMO, it'd be easier to just remove that vestigial text if it's truly meant to not apply to anything.
I'm honestly not going to be surprised if someone finds something somewhere that the hornbow text actually works with, but it wouldn't be much.
Maybe? I think this future-proofing text is meaningful anymore with this ruling.
Here is a quick list of things i found that may need to be looked at.
1. Bow Nomad Calls out short and longbows specifically but including it due to the Ulfen trait being knocked out and this being a racial Archetype.
3. Erastil's Distracting Shot Scroll down a bit for text.
5. Bowstaff odd case it effects both types but does so differently.
6. Ancestral Clasp Does it grant proficiency? And if already proficient does it grant the +1?
7. Arrow Champion Can an arrow champion recover panache with a Hornbow?
8. Elven Battle Training I would assume this one is a no go based off of the trait ruling.
Can I ask for examples of something that it DOES work with it as everything I'm thinking of don't seem to affect weapons anymore under that interpretation.Any enchantment that can be used with both longbows and shortbows, any feat that can be used with longbows and shortbows (so Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, etc but not Prone Shooter).
Given it is described as being made of bone, I’m not sure if you could get a Darkwood Hornbow. My initial inclination is no, but perhaps there is something I’m not considering.
Most of those enchantments/feats either call out ranged weapon or bow based on my list. So no special rules needed anymore than a new sword needs a text line to use power attack.
Because some people DON'T get both long and short bow proficiencies?My point is that any class that gets proficiency with all martial weapons, under your silly interpretation of this, gets proficiency with the hornbow.
If that was the intention, then why would they make it an exotic weapon?
I'm not talking about them.
Your logic: character gets proficiency with longbow and shortbow, therefore they get proficiency with hornbow.
My point, is by that logic, every character who has proficiency with ALL martial weapons, also has proficiency with longbow and shortbow, and by extension, they also get proficiency with the hornbow.
Effectively then, the hornbow is a martial weapon, because if a character has proficiency with ALL MARTIAL WEAPONS (which includes longbow and shortbow), then they also include the hornbow in that category of weapons of which they are proficient.
Except we know that the hornbow is NOT a martial weapon, so any rule interpretation that effectively makes it one must therefore be in error. Your logic that gives it to elves, and classes proficient in only longbow and shortbow, MUST ALSO give it to every class proficient in all martial weapons, because they are proficient with the same two weapons. But martial weapon proficiency cannot give access to exotic weapons, therefore the logic is flawed and must be in error.
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Ancestral clasp might work. You can definitely put it on there, but I’m not sure if you also gain the benefit.
Bowstaff is funny. Going to say it doesn’t work well, because it has two different effects for shortbows and longbows.
The rest of those don’t target the hornbow in my opinion.
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I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
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I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
I don't think so. Mark basically confirmed that the text doesn't work with anything.
One can treat this as future proofing in order to be able to use "Longbows and Shortbows" as shorthand for "bows that are not crossbows". If they roll out a weapon enhancement only for bows- long, short, and horn they would not need to reference a non PFRPG book (in case this is an issue, hardcovers don't reference softcovers) or use an awkward construction like "Bows that are not crossbows.This. If the text doesn't apply to anything you're using on your PC, then ignore it.
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I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
If Ulfen shouldn't be better then Kasatha shouldn't (#1), Half-elves and elves shouldn't (#2, #4, #6, and #8). Don't know enough about the setting to know if those orcs are big Erastil worshipers (#3) but I guess that one might fly since they could be.
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If Ulfen shouldn't be better then Kasatha shouldn't (#1), Half-elves and elves shouldn't (#2, #4, #6, and #8). Don't know enough about the setting to know if those orcs are big Erastil worshipers (#3) but I guess that one might fly since they could be.I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
Pretty sure the intent is that no one with a proficiency on both bows is auto proficient in the hornbow.
None of those things except the clasp are free profiency.
They are possible ways to use the Hornbow that in the case of five (#'s 1, 2, 4, 6, 8) of them an orc can't do, and in the case of one other one orcs from Belzkan hold probably won't be doing #3.
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Pretty sure the intent is that no one with a proficiency on both bows is auto proficient in the hornbow.If Ulfen shouldn't be better then Kasatha shouldn't (#1), Half-elves and elves shouldn't (#2, #4, #6, and #8). Don't know enough about the setting to know if those orcs are big Erastil worshipers (#3) but I guess that one might fly since they could be.I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
I'm pretty sure the intent now is that the words have no meaningful use/purpose now as they affect almost nothing. The intersection of 'JUST affects your weapon' and 'mentions short AND long bow specifically' is a mighty shortlist...
I'm pretty sure the intent now is that the words have no meaningful use/purpose now as they affect almost nothing. The intersection of 'JUST affects your weapon' and 'mentions short AND long bow specifically' is a mighty shortlist...Pretty sure the intent is that no one with a proficiency on both bows is auto proficient in the hornbow.If Ulfen shouldn't be better then Kasatha shouldn't (#1), Half-elves and elves shouldn't (#2, #4, #6, and #8). Don't know enough about the setting to know if those orcs are big Erastil worshipers (#3) but I guess that one might fly since they could be.I think you guys are drastically misinterpreting what Mark said. It seemed to me he was saying that proficiency in both bows shouldn't give proficiency on the hornbow because it's an exotic weapon an that's silly, and that Ulfen Weapon Training shouldn't work because it's not a traditional Ulfen weapon.
Aka, Rules as Intended it should require exotic weapon prof and Ulfens shouldn't automatically be better with it.
I don't think it's some big sweeping statement that it only works on effects on the weapon rather than the person wielding it as some people are suggesting.
In fact looking at my list the clasp is the only one i could that can't be claimed to affect the user and not the weapon.
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Cool. So another otherwise neat ability driven into the ground in an attempt to clarify a rules ambiguity no one needed clarifying in the first place.
Go us.
I mean, it was probably fine to leave "does this work with the hornbow?" as a question to ask one's GM (the hornbow is not legal in PFS so this is a valid solution in like 100% of games in which Hornbows appear), but then Herolab had to go and assert that bards and ninja got free EWP due to some reading of text I still don't understand.
So blame Herolab, or at least the fact that some people treat it as a rules authority I guess. Speaking of which, any update on that Gauntlet FAQ?
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a rules ambiguity no one needed clarifying in the first place.
We were pretty content to let the question die in the previous thread, but then Hero Labs got involved.
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Proficiency does not affect the weapons in which one is proficient.
And neither do any of those other feats. Just like proficiency, they effect the user wielding the weapon, instead of the weapon itself. If Moreland had meant to say what you seem to have wanted him to say, he could have just said it.
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Speaking of which, any update on that Gauntlet FAQ?
Hmmm... At least now we know that the ability to deal lethal damage with a gauntlet is an ability of the player and not the gauntlet... :P
As for what Moreland was saying. My read was this. If you are not using anything on your PC which effects the use of longbows and shortbows, ignore this piece of text.
Anything that ONLY affects the bows and not the player: stabbing shot affects your ability with an arrow and has NO effect on the bow itself; hence, not something the wording of hornbow works with. If stabbing shot works, so too would proficiencies.
EDIT: I DO find it mildly amusing that I can use stabbing shot with a bullet or bolt with Empty Quiver Style but now I can't do it with an arrow when I wield a hornbow...
Not to mention that doesn't conflict thematically so stabbing shot is probably also out being an Elf feat.
Not to mention that doesn't conflict thematically so stabbing shot is probably also out being an Elf feat.
Iffy IMO. They are also thematically bowmasters too: and what says [blank] you more than using an orc racial weapon to snipe/stab an orc with?
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I am entirely unsure of where you are getting that it only applies to the bow from.
Feats like proficiency and shabbing shot affect the PLAYER and not the weapon/ammo by the ruling.
Stabbing Shot specifics you are attacking with your "bow" but your "Rapid Shot" is substituted.
You said the important word: you. Using 'you' and not 'the weapon' means a no go.
"When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows)"
Yep, YOU... It affects your bow as much as proficiency does.
Here we have an effect, that applies to "both longbows and shortbows" because if you are using neither, you dont get to stab someone with an arrow.
No we have an effect that that applies to the PC, as per the ruling.
So by extension, no you cannot stab someone with your bullet or bolt.
Go read Empty Quiver Style and then come back to this...
And since this an effect that applies to "both longbows and shortbows" Or as PossibleCabbage said, and which Moreland agreed with. "A Bow, but not a Crossbow"
Now that works IF they reword it to bow... As it is, that's not what it does.
"Any effect that applies to both longbows and shortbows also applies to hornbows."
We get to use a Hornbow.
Yes, anything that DOES NOT APPLY TO THE CHARACTER [such as feats] but only those that affect the bow itself. SO... nothing really past maybe an elf item...