New rules for Guns and Crossbows: Differentiating them from bows

Homebrew and House Rules

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am always bothered about how shooting a bow, a gun and a crossbow is mechanically almost the same in Pathfinder and some are just superior, when in reality all had circumstantial use and at some points coexisted together in the battle field. I will present modified rules for their use, I'd also like some feedback!

---------------------------------- SUMMARY

Crossbows and guns are shot once per round, do higher damage per shot than before and function a little different from each other, to better represent them as they were used in history.

---------------------------------- HISTORY AND USE

Breaking them down in historical and practical terms:

Crossbows were used in battle from the 6 century BC (China) that we know of up to the 1800s, and are still used recreationaly (hunting).
Crossbows are easy to use compared to bows. Depending on their build their use varies, from the low piercing but rapid firing early chinese repeating crossbows to the slow loaded devastating arbalests of europe. I will not deal with repeating crossbows until later. Whilst easier to aim without training than bows and with shorter ammunition, still more propense to environmental factors than guns..wind, moisture, arched shot.

- Easy/short time to train vs bows
- Slow reloading times (cranks, stirrups, users strength)
- High damage/piercing
- Moderate aiming difficulties

Guns also appeared first in China 12 C (hand bombards), and we have had almost every iteration possible. They were advanced technology at some point, then expensive to manufacture and supply powder for and later were common place from manufacture to usage. I picked 1600s guns to parse rules for. Having several hand guns preloaded in your person was often seen.

- Easy/short time to train vs bows
- Slow reloading times (muzzle loaded, powder horns..)
- High damage/piercing
- Easy to aim. Projectile less affected by environment in short distances.

Bows, eldest of the three, most versatile and saw the most time used in battle. Some bow types required years of practice and even physical conditioning (i.e. longbow, horseback archery..). Indeed in the hands of someone skilled, fast rate of fire, accurate and damaging. Pathfinder rules as is do a decent job of covering archery.

---------------------------------- RULES


  • May only repload once per turn, never more
  • Reloading is a Standard Action
  • Rapid Reload reduces it to a Move Action
  • Rapid Shot allows you to combine a move action and reload as a single action
  • Crossbow Mastery reduces loading to a free action, still limited to 1 reload/round
  • Damage base changed to d4s
  • Strength Rating like bows added represents tensile strength needed to load, each + results in an added +1d4 damage
  • Touch AC first 40 ft
  • You may have a crossbow remain loaded indefinitely
  • Damage suggestion, Light start 2d4, medium 3d4, heavy 4d4

CROSSBOWS, reload mechanisms

  • Mechanical loading: you may not use your own strength modifier to reload a weapon, but minimal reload time is always a Move Action.
  • All mechanisms (Crank, Lever, Windlass) for simplicity have the same effect, you're welcome to spice things up yourself
  • Proficiency recommended as simple, up to GM.


  • May only reload once per turn
  • Reloading is a Full Round Action
  • Rapid Reload reduces relaoding to a Move and allows 2 hand guns to be reloaded at once
  • Rapid Shot allows you to combine a move action and reload as a single action, and to shoot 2 hand guns simultaneously
  • Damage base changed to two increases in size (1d8->1d12, etc)
  • No misfire
  • Crit multiplier reduced by 1
  • If common, included in same proficiencies as crossbows
  • You may have a gun remain loaded indefinitely


  • Crossbow Mechanical reload should be affordable early, scaling cost with strength rating
  • Crossbow strength rating costs equal or higher to bow, with max limits on hand/light
  • Guns should remain expensive for rare, or affordable if common, up to game style

Reccomended extra house rules:
-Vital Strike is a single feat that auto upgrades to Improved/Greater
-(Tentative)Add half Half Dex when using a Move action to aim, or full Dex when using a full round action
-Drop Point blank shot as a prerequisite for anything
-Deadly Aim 1.5x ratio as two handed power attack for heavy crossbows/guns


What if I walk into combat with 7 loaded guns?
You shoot 1 gun per round, unless you have Rapid Shot then you may shoot 2

I want to make a full attack build with guns/xbows
I suggest building around revolver style guns and repeating crossbows

Gravity Bow?
Usual for guns. For crossbows I would crunch some numbers, but initially would just increase the base damage size

2d4s vs 1d8s and other numbers?
Depending on what sort of spread you want, a more average or more swingy, really not a big deal. I like giving love to all my dice so they dont get jealous of the d20 and d6. I would adjust the dice size depending on what sort of power levels you want the weapons at, though for standard pathfinder I reccomend these as written.

While gunslinger damage decreases from being able to apply Dex to damage several times a round, they can still be build around carrying muyltiple guns or multichamber/revolver style guns. I personally do not think the Gunslinger is a well designed class, it is consensus that after level 5 you are better off multiclassing. It is also build over the gun rules changed here, so yeah it doesnt work the same. I would redesign some of their abilities around aiming or having several guns. Someone had to bite the bullet. Hur hur.

Scaling and going beyond
This system makes it easy to go beyond Heavy Crossbows into arbalests, gastraphetes, and all myriad forms of these beautiful tools. Add d4s, bump up the size damage, allow Int to damage (since only applied once)..modifying things and making special weapons becomes more interesting and breaks less stuff.

Pavise? Aiming sticks?
Plenty of design space for these with these rules, havent gotten to writing them down though.

Sword & Gun?
Perfectly viable with the right feats, more so than before for non gunslingers.

EXAMPLES for crossbows:

Fighter level 2, 17 strength, Medium Crossbow (manual +2 strength rating) JOHN
Damage: Medium Crossbow 3d4+2d4 (5-20)

Figther level 2, 17 strength, Medium Crossbow (mechanical +2 strength rating) WEALTHY JOHN
Damage: Medium Crossbow 3d4+2d4 (5-20)

Fighter level 2, 17 strength, Medium Crossbow (mechanical strength rating +5) RICH GUY
Damage: Medium Crossbow 3d4+3d4 (6-24)

Figher level 2, 22 strength, Medium Crossbow (mechanical strength rating +5) RICH GUY HERCULES
Damage: Medium Crossbow 3d4+5d4 (8-32)

The first too examples are believable and the damage is within standards. The next two guys, even though their stats or weapons have larger capabilities, dont get to exploit them. RICH GUY doesnt have enough strength to load his crossbow all the way so he is capped at a +2, and RICH GUY HERCULES has a +6 strength but only a +5 strength rating crossbow.

Wizard level 7, 9 strength, Medium Crossbow (manual +2 strength rating) PUNY EDWIN
Damage: 0d4, go buy a light crossbow

Wizard level 7, 10 strength, Medium Crossbow (manual +2 strength rating) EDWIN
Damage: 3d4 (3-12)

Wizard level 7, 10 strength, Medium Crossbow (mechanical +5 strength rating) WHY EDWIN
Damage: 3d4+5d4 (8-32)

Wizard level 7, 10 strength, has Rapid Reload, Medium Crossbow (mechanical +5 strength rating) WHY EDWIN WHY
Damage: 3d4+5d4 (8-32)

EDWIN the wizard has a loaded crossbow, shoots it, and then must spend a full round action to load it, and doesnt get the +2 strength rating since he cant load it to that point. WHY EDWIN WHY whilst intelligent, didnt put points into wisdown so he bought an expensive crossbow, he gets to do more damage but still needs a full round action to load it. WHY EDWIN WHY has rapid reload, thus does more damage and reloads/shoots every round.

Fighter level 6, 20 strength, Vital Strike feat, Medium Crossbow (manual +3 strength rating) VAN NOT HELSING
Damage: Heavy Crossbow 4d4+3d4 (7-28) plus weapon training etc once
Vital strike damage: 8d4+6d4 (12-56) plus weapon training etc once

Fighter level 11, 20 strength, Improved Vital Strike feat, Medium Crossbow (manual +5 strength rating) VAN STILL NOT HELSING
Damage: Medium Crossbow 4d4+5d4 (9-36) plus stuff once
Imp Vital Strike damage: 8d4+10d4 (18-72) plus stuff once

VAN STILL NOT HELSING is doing roughly 45 damage per hit from the crossbow and improved vital strike damage, we could assume he has a +3 enchant on the weapon, weapon specialisation, weapon training +2 and uses normal Deadly Aim for -3/+6, giving us a (18-72) + 13, with the ability to move around in the battle field as he reloads. This is not a dedicated build, just a switch hitter.

We can do better for a dedicated build. Say a permanent Gravity Bow enchant, taking the Crossbowman archetype for +Dex on that one shot per round, buying a mechanical arbalest +6 windlass strength rating, increasing Dex and lowering Str since we wont need it that much anymore. This is more competitive and in line with current ranged builds.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I don't think the math is fully thought out here. Also, historically, bows had as much (if not more) penetrating power than Renassaince-era firearms and crossbows.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey thanks for the feedback.

The main aim of these rules is to offer a different approach to combat where there are more ranged options than the full attack, and also to bring a little mobility whilst mantaining some likedness to their real use. The numbers are secondary, as they are the easiest thing to fix, but important nonetheless. I made a mistake with one of the examples, further down I provide the corrected version.

On the historical aspect of guns/crossbows/bows..:
it really depends what particular variant we are using. As an example within crossbows, you can not compare a crossbow with an arbalest. The arbalest uses mechanisms to store energy in the tensile metallic bow beyond the human limit. It really depends on draw weight, material and such..some of those things look more like siege weaponry. Also by the 1600s guns were quite advanced, some of the matchlock muskets are beasts. Furthermore the damage a musket lead ball does on impact (as it shatters like shrapnel creating a very messy wound) is different from an arrow wound. Heavy bodkins are scary things, the punching power is brutal. Some bows didnt penetrate chainmail after a short distance, some guns didnt either.
I think you underestimate late crossbows and early guns, by the 1600s shot and pike (then tercios and later Maurice's and Gustavus' modernisations) was a staple accross europe, here is the 30 years war as an example.
Agincourt, the holy grail of bow vs crossbow, was in 1415, more than 200 years earlier. It does depend where you want to set your mark, and really the only thing one needs to do is adjust numbers.
Interestingly heavy muskets were heavier during the 1500-1600s to defeat thick armour and as armour became less common place so did muskets become lighter. Here is a good discussion on the subject with some references.

We can get super nitpicky and look at every variable, such as why asian composite bows were not used in Europe even though they were more efficient than longbows (fun read on the general subject).

Regardless, pathfinder hardly differentiates between bows/crossbows/guns or within groups, which is what this is aimed at. I think we can agree that bows: 1. had faster fire rates 2. were strongly coupled with the users ability and 3. draw strength, while crossbows/guns were slower at rate of fire (especially 1600s), were independent of users strength except for carrying and aiming without support, and it did not take you a lifetime of practice to be good. English longbow men deformed their bone structure with training, mounted archers did that since they were able to ride, a regiment of arbalests or muskets takes a fraction of time.

However as I explained I wanted to identify their overall characteristics and parse them to pathfinder, providing an alternative use to bows/full round attacks, opening other tactical options for combat:

- slower fire rate by reloading once per round
- higher base damage lower stat multipliers
- sniping feel and viability
- more mobility in a battle
- use of subpar combat options (f.ex. vital strike)

One of the Vital Strike Crossbow examples is wrong indeed. Used the wrong crossbow and didnt add the improved vital strike part at all. Here it is redone. Perhaps the damage is a bit high, but for characters of this level I find it within boundaries.

Fighter level 11:
Fighter level 11, 20 strength, Improved Vital Strike feat, Medium Crossbow (manual +5 strength rating) VAN STILL NOT HELSING
Damage: Heavy Crossbow 4d4+5d4 (9-36) plus stuff once
Vital Strike damage: 8d4+10d4 (18-72) plus stuff once
Improved Vital Strike: 12d4+15d4 (27-108)]Fighter level 11

As for how the numbers work out, I'm fairly happy with them, but I have not play tested this yet. I think there will be table variation, I perhaps play with people capable of putting very efficient builds. I'll compare a crossbowman with these rules vs an standard archer build.

Crossbow vs Archer vs Gun:

Dedicated Crossbow fighter 11
Fighter level 11, 22 dex 12 str
weapon: Heavy Crossbow +3, mechanical 5 strength rating.
Relevant feats: Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Crossbow Mastery, Deadly Aim, weapon spec, vital strike, imp vital strike, Weapon Focus
Damage modifiers: Weapon Training +2, deadly aim +4, wep spec +2, weapon +3 = + 11
Hit: bab 11, weapon training +2, deadly aim -2, weapon focus +1, weapon +3 = + 15
Shots: Heavy Crossbow, + 15 hit (12d4+15d4 +11 damage per hit)

If it hits then it's 38-119.

Dedicated Bow fighter 11
Fighter level 11, 20 dex 16 str
Weapon: comp. longbow +3, strength rating 4.
Relevant feats: Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Cluster Shots, Many Shot, weapon focus, weapon spec.
Damage modifiers: Weapon Training +2, deadly aim +4, wep spec +2, weapon +3, strength rating + 4 = + 15
Hit: bab 11, weapon training +2, deadly aim -2, weapon focus +1, weapon +3, rapid shot -2,= + 13
Shots: Comp long bow, + 13 / + 13 / + 8 / +3, plus many shot arrow (1d8 + 15)
So..a max of 5d8 + 75 if all hit, unlikely but just for theory 80-115.

These are just approximations, there are a lot more modifiers to take into account..which would benefit the archer most, and he's spending 6 feats vs 9 to the crossbowman for similar outputs.

Lets throw a musket man into the mix..

Dedicated Musket fighter 11
Fighter level 11, 22 dex whocares str
weapon: Musket (3d6 base) +3.
Relevant feats: Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, weapon spec, vital strike, imp vital strike, Weapon Focus
Damage modifiers: Weapon Training +2, deadly aim +4, wep spec +2, weapon +3 = + 11
Hit: bab 11, weapon training +2, deadly aim -2, weapon focus +1, weapon +3 = + 15
Shots: Musket, + 15 hit (9d6+11)

If it hits then it's 20-65, by far the lowest and would need some thing. I havent thought on guns as much to be honest, could use some suggestions.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I've thought about this myself a bit too. I'd be interested to see how the 1-shot but more strength scaling works out DPR wise at various levels.

1. You need to be careful with a single-shot paradigm. At high levels PCs hit very often with their full-BaB attack. You would have very little variance in damage output, and to balance the DPR I think you would end up with a lack-luster per-shot damage.

2. I like the ability to mix a move + reload, though I don't think this should cost 2 feats.

3. I think you should avoid touch attacks. They don't really work for full BaB martials. First because touch ACs don't scale and second because of the low damage variance.

4. You've sort of made your guns and crossbows the same, no? They both focus on a one-big-hit tactic.

My ideas were to split bows, crossbows and guns by d20 niche.

Bow-users are the two-weapon fighters of ranged. They get to use rapid shot and manyshot to put tons of ordinance in the air.

Crossbow-users are the two-handed weapon fighters. I'd give them a 1.5 rate on deadly aim, 1.5 wisdom modifier to damage and the gunslinger deed that lets you roll multiple attacks to resolve one shot. This incidentally lets them double down on the crossbow's higher crit range but makes it so that they get less benefit from stuff like weapon mods and sneak attack. Its also nice that you get to use a better stat as your secondary, and fits that crossbows are supposed to compensate for lower strength.

guns are tricky, because there is not much of a niche left for them. You could make the gun the axe to the crossbow's sword. Higher base damage compared to a lower crit range. Otherwise they work the same.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Knight Magenta, some really interesting thoughts. I'll join in by going through your list in the same order.

1. + 3. Single shot mechanics are indeed risky, make a success-famine system has its downsides. I guess that is why I went with the touch AC too, in case you really really dont want to miss. Further it'd make some unexplored options really valuable. For example Bull's Eye Shot, VMC wizard foresight school, to hit buffs. Another option could be to use a Move action to target touch instead...I see myself using this in a home game, making the player choose between a sure shot or mobility, though this is functionally close to the full attack mentality.

2. Move + reload, I like it too, and I agree the feat cost is too high.

4. I did put xbows and guns into the same niche, for simplicity presenting a system without too many moving parts, looking forward to reading more suggestions. As you mention, making them axes to swords is probably the way to go. Historically they played ver similar roles; depending on technology, slow fire rate, easier to learn to use, potentially deadly in less trained hands.

I like the idea of using multiple stats, it's something I've also thought about. Perhaps it is the way to differentiate guns and crossbows. It however begins to favour some classes over others, for example inquisitors, clerics, rogues or wizards.

I have thought a bit about further adding to this system though, using Aim actions...taking a move, full round, several rounds, to create different effect like use dex/double dex to damage, guarantee critical hits and such, but that is for later on.

Definitely more to think about.

Also, I'll add that rolling 15d4s sounds like a nightmare outside of rolling apps..

I think that you could replace "hit touch ac" with a flat bonus. Like +2 or +4. that way you would get the ability to trade off actions for accuracy, but you don't run into the problem of dragons having a touch ac of 10.

Or you could boost all monster's touch ACs :p

For reloads, I was thinking to just remove the light/heavy crossbow distinction. +1 damage is hardly worth having a worse reload action. Just make it a move action to reload or as part of a move if you have rapid reload.

I'd also consider making crossbows martial weapons that can be reloaded slower if you only have simple weapon proficiency (like bastard swords). That way you don't have to worry about them being weaker/stronger then bows.

You are right that there are already feats that add stats to damage, like Focused Shot. You have to be careful as to how many feats you want crossbow users to take. Archers are already feat starved. The crossbowman saves 2 feats (rapid shot and manyshot), but he needs rapid reload.

If crossbows traded off damage for mobility with regard to bows, that would be cool.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What does this mean?
"What if I walk into combat with 7 loaded guns?
You shoot 1 gun per round, unless you have Rapid Shot then you may shoot 2"

Why can't you shoot more than one since they are all loaded?

I still think Penetration is a better rate than just limiting to 1 shot/rd to take away misfire.
I might be bias because I invented it.

Replace misfire and Touch AC mechanic;
Penetration bypasses the combination of armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 2nd increment (however, keep reading). One-handed firearms have a PR of 3, two handed firearms have a PR of 6, but this is ½ outside of 1st increment. Also PR automatically increases based on enhancementx2, so a character with a +5 musket bypasses 16 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 1st increment, but only 8 in 2nd increment.
Broken Condition: Penetration lowered by 4 (minimum 0).
Deadeye Deed: Same method by extends penetration
Quick Clear: If Firearm gains broken condition, can ignore for 1 minute.
Gun Training: Raises Penetration by 1 every 5 levels.

Alchemy cartridge: Lowers Penetration by 1 or more when used (use misfire value)
Dragon's breath: The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 + BAB points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save half). If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm gains broken condition or explodes if broken.

Makes magic guns better than normal guns but that fits thematically.

How did you pick PR 3/6 and x2?

What my group has done for guns is give them exploding dice set at d4s but no longer hit on touch(change the damage on the gun to d4 equivalents). So far we've had 2 players use guns as their main weapon using Vital Strike and they seem to hold up ok vs our Barb with Falchion.

I don't know if this helps you, but I am currently toying with writing my own system.

When it comes to bows and crossbows, weapons have a draw weight that works like Pathfinder's composite bow mechanic. Bows require you to have the strength necessary to fully utilize their draw weight. Crossbows can use levers/cranks to load them which gives you a bonus on your strength.

For instance, a character with a +3 STR could use a bow with a +3 STR draw weight and add 3 damage to their attacks, but the same character could, say, use a crossbow with a +6 STR draw weight if they used a crank to span the crossbow, adding 6 to their damage.

I haven't ironed out the specific numbers, but that's the general idea.

I would have feats affect crossbow reload speed much less than for guns, and maybe not at all -- how long can it take to put the bolt or bolt substitute in the crossbow? Instead, have Strength affect reload speed more -- if you are super-strong, you can bypass the crank on an average crossbow and just pull the mechanism a stirrup or something; if you are strong, you can't crank it all the way with a stirrup, but you can crank the screw fast with small leverage; if you are of average Strength, you need to get large leverage to crank it all the way (this would probably require changing the handle on the crank, although some fancy crossbows might have an adjustable crank handle), and so you can't crank it fast; if you are weak, even that isn't good enough. The boundaries between each category would depend upon the Strength rating of the crossbow, which would largely track the size of the crossbow for mundane crossbows, but could be modified by enchantment (although some really fancy enchantments might also provide a power cranking assist). So, since crossbow operation depends upon your exertion, you would still have a use for Strength as a crossbow user, especially if you intended to do something other than snipe once and then switch to melee.

For firearms, Strength would apply with respect to how big a shot (both the size of the shot itself and the power of the cartridge, within the mechanical limits of the gun barrel) you can fire without causing loss of accuracy (and risk of tripping yourself if you really try to go beyond your limits). Finding a way to brace the firearm (including putting it on a tripod) would extend how big a shot you could fire for a given Strength. Rapid Reloading feats would apply to reduce the loading time of the guns, given that you have to put in several things in the right order on pre-1800s guns.

Given the amount of training that bows (especially the asymmetric types like both varieties of Japanese Yumi) and slings require to use, these would become Exotic or even Exotic+ weapons (Minimum Weapon Proficiency III or IV in the alternate proficiency system I have been thinking off elsewhere), while most crossbows would be Simple or Martial weapons (Minimum Weapon Proficiency I or II, respectively), and most firearms would remain Exotic weapons (Minimum Weapon Proficiency III).

Different sizes of bow, crossbow, and firearms (even those usable by the same size of creature) would have different types of ammunition (just like you don't put 0.21 ammunition in a 0.45 or vice versa, not all arrows or crossbow bolts are the same, even when all intended to be used by Humans).

For armor, have armor thickness (weight) and material determine a Resistance value that determines whether any of the ranged weapons act as Ranged Touch or normal Ranged attacks. I like the idea of all of the weapons (maybe even hurled and melee weapons) having a Penetration value that drops with each range increment.

Of course, making any changes is going to require shooting some Sacred Cows . . . .

Interesting to hear of people's implementations of different rules for this.

Starbuck the Second:
If you want to allow the shooting of 7 guns that are already loaded in a game it works too, it balances out with cost and nova effect. I'd perhaps allow gunslingers to do this, but restrict it to them. There really is no limit to number of shots made apart from BAB and having Quick Draw.
I also find that dealing with penetration of ignoring a concise number of armour in Pathfinder is too tedious; if DR for armours were used this would be optimal but otherwise giving straight + to hit is more elegant, both numbers wise and combat fluidity.

Similar ideas here, however I wanted to keep the fantasy element of the herculean strength being an equal alternative to using mechanical loading. And indeed should you have the strength required be rewarded for not needed a mechanic (imagine a troll using an arbalest). How I wrote it the user is indeed capped at your own strength or that or the mechanism even if the tensile strength of the xbow is greater.
Also when looking at numbers are you keeping pathfinders iterative shooting? If so a +1 per strength point is decent, but if you are only shooting once as I propose, that wont be enough to be a good option.

Silver Sics:
From your suggestion I went and had a look at exploding dice, they look really fun. I also looked into the statistics of it and they're quite solid. However I like a more normal distribution and expected values, so do my players, though this is totally personal preference. I'd definitely run it in a more open system.

I also really want to get down into detail and break everything into ammunition weight, powder load, resistance of materials, thickness, etc...but my players would murder me, or call this impractical as a side system.
Strength affecting xbow reload speed: it is there lightly, if you dont use a mechanical loading mechanism you load faster. As I wrote it the idea was that you can both use a Strength version and a non strength. Linking everything to strength whilst opening more mechanical options I think you'd reduce playable options - as in this is not as great a choice for a pure dex character with a mechanically tinkered xbow. Strength denoting the size of the xbow is however the point, a light xbow not being able to have more than a +3 and an arbalest all the way to +7.
Slings..that is a realm of its own. I actually sling, since I come from a part of the world where it is tradition. You're right on the training time and exotic feat requirement. Pathfinder's application of these is beyond terrible. However I would only suggest using dex to damage or half dex or a function of the ammunition used. It's a subject of its own truly.
On strength for firearms..well, I think it's already a little ingrained in carrying capacity and the culverin rule where you get knocked prone.

Really some good food for though. Many suggestions on using resistances, DR and the such, however when I wrote this was to present something that would get used on the table without changing too much. I want my players to take it up without needing to relearn a system or to further encumber pathfinder combat which is heavy enough by itself.
I do wish pathfinder had better armour rules that were not as binary. The DR for armour rules just dont hold up under scrutiny and just add again. So yeah them sanctified cows.

Knigit! Magenta
I like the proficiency divide between martial/simple with the reload speed distinction. Translates well. I'd probably keep hand crossbows simple.

To summarise a couple of things I've distilled from the comments and my thoughts:

- I'm still holding on to the 1/round idea with muskets and heavier crossbows, it is the whole premise of this ruleset. Bows already do iterative attacks well, or house rule that crossbows work exactly like bows and call it a day.

- Should benefit from reloading feats more.
- Damage dependent on ammo shot and gun size (I'd link these for ease). Any more (for example poweder load) would overcomplicate.
- Gun piercing I think is defined well enough in pathfinder with Touch AC, without adding subsystems like DR it's just not feasable to expand on it much.
- Modifying a Deadshot deed from the gunslinger for guns could be a good model for them. So you keep iteratives but they are bundled into one shot, making gun base damage important. It needs to be shorter than a full round action though. So Standard Action with Rapid Reload.

- Very success or famine model. I do like that, makes accuracy options important (feats like bullseye shot, VMC, items to stabilise..).
- Strength for loading or alternative with mechanism, without differentiating between each other except in ease of use. Damage gated by max tensile potential of xbow and users ability to load it (str or mechanism).

I also wanted to added a section on running this system together with iterative attacks and keeping those options open:

In order to keep the option for using iteratives attacks as normal I would excluse the Repeating Crossbow and Revolver/pepperbox guns from using these rules. I.e. they do not benefit from the tensile strength for crossbows and the aim mechanics.
This allows you to still make gunslingers applying their Dex several times a round as damage, inquisitors to apply their Bane and judgement etc.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / New rules for Guns and Crossbows: Differentiating them from bows All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules