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This is, as far as I know, not something that is explicitly written in the rulebooks, so it will depend on the universe you are playing in and what you can agree on with the player.
My interpretation is this:
Once someone transforms into a lich, their metabolism stops as though they died - food will not be digested, and the body will begin to rot. But if the lich takes steps to preserve their body, they can prevent their appearance from becoming zombie-like. For example, casting Gentle Repose regularly will keep the body looking fresh. He could also have himself embalmed and preserve his looks alchemically.
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Eaating kale isn’t going to cut it. Emo Duck is right. A Lich is a walking corpse and will garner no nutrients from food.
However, he’s a spellcasters and can take other steps. The easiest probably being the daily casting of gentle repose on themselves, though that only stops the decay process. It doesn’t stop the problem with negative energy hands, unnatural aura, etc.
May want to make a custom item that casts Semblance of Life. Look it up on the PFSRD.
Edit: might be appearance of life
Why would Gentle Repose work here? It targets a corpse, which an Undead isn't as such.
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Uh, you kinda need to be a corpse to be undead (pretty sure there's published NPCs that use that very tactic).He argues that even the vampires do not decompose but honestly I see the fact forced.
Some arguments to explain the difference btw the two undead?
I'm pretty sure you are the only person to mention vampires, do a search on the page, just you and now me. Unless I'm really missing something?
To start; both Vampires and Liches are intelligent undead, and thus can take measures to maintain a life-like appearance, for the sake of traveling.
Vampires are undead that draw sustenance on the living. They require blood to continue functioning, and in some versions, will fall into a coma-like sleep until someone feeds them blood.
Liches, on the other hand, are undead and will gradually decompose regardless of what they do (Check out the Demilich). They can take measures to preserve their body, magically, or alchemically, but it won't last forever. Illusory magic helps too, but anybody with true-seeing, detect evil, or a well-placed dispel magic will notice on the spot. Your player's character will become nothing more than a floating magical skull after a few thousand years, but until then, he'll have to depend on his magic and/or alchemy to preserve that 'living' complexion.
A friend of mind holds that not all Liches are originally evil, but with taking that step into undeath their morals turn to dust and the longer they live, the more apparent their negative personality traits become. He had an NPC that disliked elves in life. When that NPC became a lich, his dislike grew into racism and then into kill-on-sight hatred. Otherwise he was a very polite and hospitable wizard.
This is a very good local interpretation (and your friend's is actually fairly much in-keeping), but you differ from PF world lore, or similar elements from previous editions (such as 3rd and 3.5).
Your friend mostly matches: while most all liches are definitely evil, there is even acknowledgement that liches that don't start evil "inevitably" turn so due to a combination of loneliness and a separation from humanity.
Liches, however, don't inevitably decay. Even though demiliches exist, there are also published liches that have been left in torpor for 10,000 years (give or take), and still haven't become demiliches (though the one I'm thinking of did lose caster levels until its phylactery shut off - still was otherwise a lich).
In Paizo's published vampires, the feeding aspect is more of a compulsion - a kind of blood-addiction that they have to make will saves to resist; this is explored more in-depth in one of the undead-themed books (I don't recall the name, right now). (At least, if they're the kind of vampires that require blood - there're also the other three kinds of vampires which take different things.)
I'm pretty sure you are the only person to mention vampires, do a search on the page, just you and now me. Unless I'm really missing something?
Hogey, that's the OP: I believe he is suggesting that his "problem player" (the one that desires his lich to look human-like instead of skeletal) is arguing that since vampires look "human" liches should be able to as well, and then the OP is suggesting he doesn't like that argument as vampires and liches are different.
Uh, you kinda need to be a corpse to be undead (pretty sure there's published NPCs that use that very tactic).
I will suggest that I totally agree with the view that they are one in the same, but I can see the argument that undead are not necessarily corpses anymore. Again, not something I agree with, but I can see the argument being made.
He argues that even the vampires do not decompose but honestly I see the fact forced.
Some arguments to explain the difference btw the two undead?
Simple:
- a vampire is one of four "breeds" of cursed undead "descended" from a line of extraplanar entities called "strigoi"... vampirism is an afflicted state that removes control from the turned, until their master is no longer alive, and considers only the over-all personal power (HD) of the creature turned (below 5HD becomes "vampire spawn" while above 5 HD becomes "vampire"); you might want to look into vampires.
- a lich is a ritualistic voluntary change in a creature who has pursued enough necromantic power (caster level 11); it requires facility with magic, and continuous stimulation and activity: inactivity (seemingly from long periods of torpor due to magical exploration outside of its body) eventually leads it to decaying into a state of being a demilich (demilich).
In short: vampirism is an affliction that comes with a compulsion for <stuff> (usually blood), while lichdom is a ritualistic state that can fail if done poorly or if left in enough torpor (though it's not "inevitable" unless you consider it "inevitable" that a sentient mind would eventually fall into the equivalent of hyper-boredom - not a bad assumption, but not a guarantee).
Hope that helps!
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I'm pretty sure you are the only person to mention vampires, do a search on the page, just you and now me. Unless I'm really missing something?Uh, you kinda need to be a corpse to be undead (pretty sure there's published NPCs that use that very tactic).He argues that even the vampires do not decompose but honestly I see the fact forced.
Some arguments to explain the difference btw the two undead?I use "He" for target my player not the guy that answer maybe wasn't clear :).
Btw i like how @BlingerBunny explain the concept a lot.
Thanks for the help guys, i hope this will convince him.
Ah, that makes sense I thought you were referring to another poster, simple misunderstanding.
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Eaating kale isn’t going to cut it. Emo Duck is right. A Lich is a walking corpse and will garner no nutrients from food.
I think a Lych can eat and benefit from a lychee, however.
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I think a Lych can eat and benefit from a lychee, however.Eaating kale isn’t going to cut it. Emo Duck is right. A Lich is a walking corpse and will garner no nutrients from food.
Yea. The typo is killing me, but I’m gonna let it slide
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Yea. The typo is killing me, but I’m gonna let it slideI think a Lych can eat and benefit from a lychee, however.Eaating kale isn’t going to cut it. Emo Duck is right. A Lich is a walking corpse and will garner no nutrients from food.
Lych and lich are the same more or less i see call them in both way btw isn't the main plot.
Seems like my player are stone's. Lich are living creatures that not decay cause they are magic (That's the main argue atm, pretty sad).
One of the player found an npc that looks like human in a campaign so now for him lich aren't different from a normal human and they decay jsut cause the want it.
I wonder why i never ear about this kind of lich and i saw just death skeletal corpes...
I like realism in game (obv in the measure that a fantastic word allow it) and i'm getting serius problem to convince them that a lich can't be just like an human (still eat, still feel cause... it is magic).
I would like to find a rule that convince them about it but i'm not getting luck on this.
How the f*+@ a lich should be alive?
A lich with 1k age that just eating and washing himself don't decay cause is magic.
Do you have other argues for them? <3
“Lych” isn’t a word, but I’m not going to argue the point, because you’re right. That’s not the point of the thread.
Undead, including Liches, have no biological processes. Hence the lack of constitution scores. However, don’t take my word for it. Check out the last sentence of the undead type. “Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.”
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. An undead creature has the following features.
d8 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
Good Will saves.
Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. Many undead, however, are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. The following are class skills for undead: Climb , Disguise , Fly , Intimidate , Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception , Sense Motive , Spellcraft , and Stealth .
Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain , or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Unless specific care is taken, a lich’s form will rot and then will decay over time.
However, in various canonical sources, some liches have knowledge of a spell called gentle repose; when used, this spell prevents rot or decay from progressing beyond its current point. That means that a Lich who is on top of things can cast that spell repeatedly (at least once per week) and never have any rot or decay. This is not just “because magic” or by force of will, this is explicitly following the mechanics of magic as-presented in-game, and does represent an opportunity coat for the character: use of a spell.
That said, if I were a Lich, I’d build a sentient item (special purpose: keep the Lich under gentle repose and get along with other items) that has one ability: 2/week gentle repose. This is exceptionally inexpensive, and it nets the Lich a kind of “never rot” - and it’s 2/week just in case the normal one is dispelled.
This should let your guy do what he wants to, while also giving you an in-character “dunk cost” and still being in the WBL for an 11th level caster.
Oh! Also, there’s the “timeless” method: slather yourself with an unguent of timelessness (you can coat your insides by way of unseen servant, if a GM determines if necessary for some reason), which causes a slowdown in decay so that a year passes before a single day of aging/rot/decay (such a tactic is poison to living folks, but undead wouldn’t care. The, when combined with gentle repose, should cover everything a Lich needs to stay fresh.
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Just in case you're wondering about where the things I was talking about come from, I'll give you links:
> Gentle Repose
- 3rd edition magic item: robe of gentle repose; note "This was especially valued by undead who wished to maintain the appearance of still being a living creature." (different setting, but still proof-of-concept with a game that uses the same chassis).
Hope that helps!
A friend of mind holds that not all Liches are originally evil, but with taking that step into undeath their morals turn to dust and the longer they live, the more apparent their negative personality traits become. He had an NPC that disliked elves in life. When that NPC became a lich, his dislike grew into racism and then into kill-on-sight hatred. Otherwise he was a very polite and hospitable wizard.
By lore Liches are very much evil.
They could be neutral for most of their normal life but at some point decided that they where willing to kill for power and intentionally warp their way of thinking by corrupting their soul. There is more than one way to become a Lich, but by lore it makes it clear that everyone of them requires sacrifice or some incredibly evil deed.
As always you can alter the lore however you want, you can make demons a bunch of fun loving pranksters who don't really want to harm anyone. If anything a Lich is by default worse, they made a choice to become what they are, most demons did not.