Cave druid (Ooze wildshape)

Rules Questions

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

For a bit of context : I recently made a cave druid for a campaign, and I have come under a certain issue, for which I havent found an existing FAQ about :

Considering : "At 10th level, the cave druid can assume the form of a Small or Medium ooze as if using beast shape III, and at 12th level that of a Tiny or Large ooze as if using beast shape IV (treating the ooze as if it were a magical beast without a natural armor bonus). When in ooze form, the cave druid has no discernible anatomy and is immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits."
Question : If I transform into an ooze, do I become blind as per the ooze trait (which should also give me blindsight as per the trait)?
or in other words
Question (alternative) : Is sight considered supernatural or extraordinary for the purpose of wild shape ?

My Opinion : Considering the only things you lose are extraordinary and supernatural abilities based on race (darkvision as a dwarf as exemple), it would odd to lose the most basic sense of all. The only exemple I have found is the "Sea Anemone, Giant", which is blind and has sightless as EX ability, which is not 'granted' by vermin shape. To add to all of that, the cave druid actually specifies that transforming into an ooze grants me the no poison/sneak/crit, I can still bleed however.

A FAQ/errata would be greatly appreciated, any sort of official clarification really.

As far as I can figure, oozes are blind by virtue of their creature type (ooze). While things like darkvision can have the (Ex) or (Su) descriptor, I don't remember those tags ever being attributed to a basic sense like sight or hearing.

Since Beast Shape doesn't change your actual type, my interpretation would be that you retain your sense of sight as normal - in addition to gaining whatever blindsight ability the spell and chosen form calls for.

The important question is this: Where would you get ooze traits from?

As usual for polymorph effects, you get what's explicitly granted, and nothing else. Beast Shape IV does not include ooze traits, and the basic polymorph rules say you stay your creature type.

Cave Druid's wildshape grants you some immunities exactly because you don't gain ooze traits.

There is no FAQ/erratum necessary, as the rules are clear.

Qchaos wrote:
Question (alternative): Is sight considered supernatural or extraordinary for the purpose of wild shape ?

Unless you're playing a race where sight isn't ordinary, neither.

Regular sight is neither supernatural nor extraordinary.

Scarab Sages

Where is that listed
would like some quotes

Utii wrote:

Where is that listed

would like some quotes

to start with you're responding to a thread that is 2 years old. It's not listed because the only things that get listed are abilities that are extraordinary, supernatural or spell like. We know humans have normal sight and if you look at the entry for humans it doesn't list any sort of vision abilities.

as for a quote. here's one

blahpers wrote:
Regular sight is neither supernatural nor extraordinary.

LordKailas wrote:
to start with you're responding to a thread that is 2 years old.

Well, so are you. :P

Oh no, I am too. :(

Liberty's Edge

CRB wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

AFAIK, there is no creature that has keen senses, scent, or darkvision as Ex or Su abilities, but they are cited as an Ex or Su ability you lose.

You can put that question together to the one "how do you breathe normal air while in elemental or skeletal undead form, as you don't have lugs anymore but your type don't change, so you need to breathe?" (in earth elemental form you can breathe while burrowing and in water elemental form you can breathe while underwater because the rules say you can.)

The "in world" explanation is "magic". The gamer explanation is: "Polymorph spells always had problems, we should adapt and be flexible, the spell exists so it should work".

To reply to the original question (even if it is a late reply), none of the beast shape spells grant blindsight, so you don't get it. You get its lesser form, blinsense, as it is granted by beast shape IV, and only when you get the ability to mimic Beast shape IV.
As a key archetype ability shouldn't cripple you, I would have you retain your normal sight.

Utii wrote:

Where is that listed

would like some quotes

Sure thing! (cite 1), (cite 2)

Special Abilities wrote:

Supernatural Abilities: These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas.

Extraordinary Abilities: These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.

Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

(Omitted spell-like from this quote for brevity)

More on extraordinary abilities:

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Regular ol' eyesight is a natural ability.

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