Tiefling Oversized Limbs+Orc Hornbow+Gravity Bow


Rules Questions

51 to 98 of 98 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:

Except you can't wield large two handed weapons. The ability doesn't override the general rule as it doesn't say it does. You can wield large weapons without the normal penalties, but there is nothing in there to say that it allows you to wield something you wouldn't normally be able to wield.

For reference, as said above, that would be giving them at level 1 what the Titan Fighter archetype trades a feat and all of armor training to get at level 15.

it allows you to ignore any penalties of using large weapons, the normal penalty of not being able to use large 2h weapons is ignored by this ability

Based on what? There is absolutely nothing in that sentence to indicate that is how it should work.

By that logic "without penalty" should apply to power attack, non proficient, two weapon fighting, combat expertise and fighting defensively.

It doesn't say that it applies to those penalties, but it doesn't not say it applies to them either.

If the notion of a small creature being able to wield a large 2 handed weapon doesn't dissuade you from that reading I don't know what will.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:

Except you can't wield large two handed weapons. The ability doesn't override the general rule as it doesn't say it does. You can wield large weapons without the normal penalties, but there is nothing in there to say that it allows you to wield something you wouldn't normally be able to wield.

For reference, as said above, that would be giving them at level 1 what the Titan Fighter archetype trades a feat and all of armor training to get at level 15.

it allows you to ignore any penalties of using large weapons, the normal penalty of not being able to use large 2h weapons is ignored by this ability

Based on what? There is absolutely nothing in that sentence to indicate that is how it should work.

By that logic "without penalty" should apply to power attack, non proficient, two weapon fighting, combat expertise and fighting defensively.

it applies to all penalties related to using larger weapons both the numerical penalties and the actual ability to use penalties those are the only penalties it touches, everything outside that remains un effected


I think that mechanically you can take it in every way literal, and allow a tiny tiefling to use large two handed weapons without penalties, and guess what, nothing changes.

Small tiefling large 2H weapons, nope, nothing changes. Who cares?

Why are we still arguing about it?


VoodistMonk wrote:

I think that mechanically you can take it in every way literal, and allow a tiny tiefling to use large two handed weapons without penalties, and guess what, nothing changes.

Small tiefling large 2H weapons, nope, nothing changes. Who cares?

Why are we still arguing about it?

I mean, if I take it as "literally" as some others have implied, then I should be able to TWF two large 2-handed weapons and use Power Attack without any penalties right? Because I can use them without penalty. Actually, this works out great, because now I don't even need to be proficient with the weapons either...


Mallecks wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

I think that mechanically you can take it in every way literal, and allow a tiny tiefling to use large two handed weapons without penalties, and guess what, nothing changes.

Small tiefling large 2H weapons, nope, nothing changes. Who cares?

Why are we still arguing about it?

I mean, if I take it as "literally" as some others have implied, then I should be able to TWF two large 2-handed weapons and use Power Attack without any penalties right? Because I can use them without penalty. Actually, this works out great, because now I don't even need to be proficient with the weapons either...

Sure man. Your off hand suffers no penalties during TWF, kinda like Shield Master. Go for it. Doesn't change anything. Knock yourself out. Just make it thematically awesome.

NOTHING CHANGES!!!

Worst case scenario... You end up with a powerful melee character. Good! Thank you for making a relevant fighter!

An Archer will still just be an archer. They deal high damage, this doesn't change that.

It doesn't effect spells or bombs, so literally, who freaking cares?

Shadow Lodge

Apparently people that aren't you.


Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:

Except you can't wield large two handed weapons. The ability doesn't override the general rule as it doesn't say it does. You can wield large weapons without the normal penalties, but there is nothing in there to say that it allows you to wield something you wouldn't normally be able to wield.

For reference, as said above, that would be giving them at level 1 what the Titan Fighter archetype trades a feat and all of armor training to get at level 15.

it allows you to ignore any penalties of using large weapons, the normal penalty of not being able to use large 2h weapons is ignored by this ability

Based on what? There is absolutely nothing in that sentence to indicate that is how it should work.

By that logic "without penalty" should apply to power attack, non proficient, two weapon fighting, combat expertise and fighting defensively.

it applies to all penalties related to using larger weapons both the numerical penalties and the actual ability to use penalties those are the only penalties it touches, everything outside that remains un effected

Not being able to wield an oversized two handed weapon is not a penalty, it is a restriction. Those are two completely different things.

The text says what it does: it removes the penalty for wielding large weapons. It does not grant any ability to wield a weapon that couldn't otherwise be wielded.


I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.


Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.

Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.

This is the basis of my Greatsword Battler, adding Greater Vital Strike on a charge...


Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.

Which has what to do with what I said?


Talonhawke wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.
Which has what to do with what I said?
Talonhawke wrote:
why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.

Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.
Which has what to do with what I said?
Talonhawke wrote:
why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.

Reread what I said, and then reread what you quoted me saying. I wasn't implying that I couldn't see why someone would want to use bigger weapons/dice sizes, I was pointing out why unless the ability lets you use bigger weapons it basically did nothing. It was for people thinking that the ability only let you use weapons you could anyways such as a using a large longsword or at best bastard sword or dwarven waraxe. My whole point was that outside of a few corner cases like those weapons or a set-up where the party could only find large size weapons the ability makes no sense unless actually allowed the use of weapons a size category up as without shifting them up a handedness.

I know why people would want to use a bigger weapon, I know how things like vital strike and damage dice work, I was pointing out that if it just removed the awkward size penalty then it has almost no use.


Talonhawke wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.
Which has what to do with what I said?
Talonhawke wrote:
why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer.

Reread what I said, and then reread what you quoted me saying. I wasn't implying that I couldn't see why someone would want to use bigger weapons/dice sizes, I was pointing out why unless the ability lets you use bigger weapons it basically did nothing. It was for people thinking that the ability only let you use weapons you could anyways such as a using a large longsword or at best bastard sword or dwarven waraxe. My whole point was that outside of a few corner cases like those weapons or a set-up where the party could only find large size weapons the ability makes no sense unless actually allowed the use of weapons a size category up as without shifting them up a handedness.

I know why people would want to use a bigger weapon, I know how...

There are several ways to make use of larger weapons as written:

TWF with a medium and large version of the same weapon allowing Weapon Focus and similar feats to be taken only once.

Increased damage die if locked into a particular light or one handed weapon due to archetype or feat chain.

Large Estoc does 2d6 damage with an 18–20/x2 multiplier which no two handed weapon can match as far as I know.


Gallant Armor wrote:
There are several ways to make use of larger weapons as written:

Let's take a look at these.

Gallant Armor wrote:
TWF with a medium and large version of the same weapon allowing Weapon Focus and similar feats to be taken only once.

This is not a bad use it's one I hadn't considered actually.

Gallant Armor wrote:
Increased damage die if locked into a particular light or one handed weapon due to archetype or feat chain.

Most of these require it to be appropriately sized, not all but like i said before corner cases.

Gallant Armor wrote:
Large Estoc does 2d6 damage with an 18–20/x2 multiplier which no two handed weapon can match as far as I know.

Estoc is just like the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe it's one of the few and only because it has a boosted dice for it's handedness through EWP. And it loses one of it's main benefits which is the use of finesse.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.

so what, nothing wrong with actually making vital strike viable....


Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.
so what, nothing wrong with actually making vital strike viable....

Adding in static bonuses that would be the equivalent damage to a high level disintegrate. Vital strike is plenty viable as is.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
I'm going to say like I said about the titan mauler, and author intent was correct but rules weren't, clearly the intent of this ability is to emulate 3.5 monkey grip type wielding much like the titan mauler. Outside of a few corner case type moments why would anyone even bother with simply wielding a sized up weapon when they could use a proper sized one with the same die size without needing an ability.
Start with a Butchering Axe, normally 3d6 upped to 4d6 due to large size. Take Pass for Human (oversized limbs could be ruled to block this, but it's debatable) to gain access to enlarge person to make it 6d6. Impact weapon special ability makes that 8d6. Finally take the Vital Strike chain to boost it up to 32d6. Without the large sized weapon it would be 24d6. +2d6 damage on a normal hit and +8d6 damage on a vital strike is the goal for these builds.
so what, nothing wrong with actually making vital strike viable....
Adding in static bonuses that would be the equivalent damage to a high level disintegrate. Vital strike is plenty viable as is.

1. the person with that build needs to be in melee to pull it off

2. a disintegrate build would still do more damage and can pull it off at range over 200 feet away in fact
3. with out pumping up size bonuses vital strike is hot steaming garbage as just making a full attack provides more damage due to how static modifiers work


VoodistMonk wrote:
Mallecks wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

I think that mechanically you can take it in every way literal, and allow a tiny tiefling to use large two handed weapons without penalties, and guess what, nothing changes.

Small tiefling large 2H weapons, nope, nothing changes. Who cares?

Why are we still arguing about it?

I mean, if I take it as "literally" as some others have implied, then I should be able to TWF two large 2-handed weapons and use Power Attack without any penalties right? Because I can use them without penalty. Actually, this works out great, because now I don't even need to be proficient with the weapons either...

Sure man. Your off hand suffers no penalties during TWF, kinda like Shield Master. Go for it. Doesn't change anything. Knock yourself out. Just make it thematically awesome.

NOTHING CHANGES!!!

Worst case scenario... You end up with a powerful melee character. Good! Thank you for making a relevant fighter!

An Archer will still just be an archer. They deal high damage, this doesn't change that.

It doesn't effect spells or bombs, so literally, who freaking cares?

I mean...

This is the rules forum right? We're trying to argue where this ability's boundaries lie, and there's more to the game than "spells and bombs."

Why would you advocate a racial ability be able to grant proficiency with every weapon, remove all penalties to attack and damage rolls regardless of source, ignore weapon size rules, etc.

I don't care whether the ability is too overpowered or whether the ability is too under-powered. I care about what the rules are.(Again, rules forum.)


I would like to throw in this word: Restriction as grey-area-clearification to penalty. The penalty is removed but not the restriction, perhaps someone better with words and referencing could elaborate on this?


VIPfr33dom wrote:
I would like to throw in this word: Restriction as grey-area-clearification to penalty. The penalty is removed but not the restriction, perhaps someone better with words and referencing could elaborate on this?

This is the core of the debate. You are restricted from using size large 2H weapons as a size medium creature. The ability in question says nothing about removing this restriction.

You are allowed to use size large light/1H weapons with a penalty. The ability in question does remove this penalty.

That is how the rules work.

I love the idea of a Tiefling using a size large 2H weapon, because why wouldn't you allow it? Because rules? Come on. It's a fantasy game, people. Why stifle creativity? Why limit the potential of a character? Especially a melee character.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
VoodistMonk wrote:
VIPfr33dom wrote:
I would like to throw in this word: Restriction as grey-area-clearification to penalty. The penalty is removed but not the restriction, perhaps someone better with words and referencing could elaborate on this?

This is the core of the debate. You are restricted from using size large 2H weapons as a size medium creature. The ability in question says nothing about removing this restriction.

You are allowed to use size large light/1H weapons with a penalty. The ability in question does remove this penalty.

That is how the rules work.

I love the idea of a Tiefling using a size large 2H weapon, because why wouldn't you allow it? Because rules? Come on. It's a fantasy game, people. Why stifle creativity? Why limit the potential of a character? Especially a melee character.

Why have any rules at all?


Because the rules restricting a player from using large 2H weapons are asinine and pointless. That restriction makes no sense, because all it does is nerf melee characters which quite frankly can use all the help they can get. This game is supposed to encourage creativity, not hinder it. The rules are designed to add structure to this game, removing this stupid restriction does not remove any structure from the game. Nothing changes except now creative melee characters and archers can use obnoxiously large weapons... And it would be awesome!!!

Only thing that has to change are the opinions of narrow minded Dungeon Masters.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
VoodistMonk wrote:

Because the rules restricting a player from using large 2H weapons are asinine and pointless. That restriction makes no sense, because all it does is nerf melee characters which quite frankly can use all the help they can get. This game is supposed to encourage creativity, not hinder it. The rules are designed to add structure to this game, removing this stupid restriction does not remove any structure from the game. Nothing changes except now creative melee characters and archers can use obnoxiously large weapons... And it would be awesome!!!

Only thing that has to change are the opinions of narrow minded Dungeon Masters.

I have no problem with GMs making any decisions they want.

What GMs decide is appropriate for their games has nothing to do with how the rules should be interpreted.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would just point out that the rule that prevents you from using weapons that are too large for your size isn't a penalty so the ability doesn't bypass it.


Magicdealer wrote:
I would just point out that the rule that prevents you from using weapons that are too large for your size isn't a penalty so the ability doesn't bypass it.

penalty does not just mean numerical deduct able, so yes the not able to use, is in fact a penalty


Lady-J wrote:
Magicdealer wrote:
I would just point out that the rule that prevents you from using weapons that are too large for your size isn't a penalty so the ability doesn't bypass it.
penalty does not just mean numerical deduct able, so yes the not able to use, is in fact a penalty

I would love to see an example of this. Find a place where penalty is used to mean that a character can't do something at all.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If my character has a speed of 30 feet, are you saying that if I had an ability that let me move without penalties, that I would have unlimited movement? Because he can ignore the "not being able to move more than 30 feet" penalty?

If my tiefling was missing arms, would he still be able to wield it? Because he can ignore the "not having enough hands to wield the weapon" penalty?

How creative can we be? If his bard ally is using Inspire Courage to grant him a -(-2) morale penalty to attack/damage rolls, does he get the penalty?

Scarab Sages

Penalty is a specific game term and are, in fact, numerical values. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html#penalty


Well, that settles that I guess.

Now, we can argue whether RAW a ranged weapon can be used by an inappropriately sized creature.


RAW the only thing I know of that I know of would regarding bow size would be from the shortbow/longbow weapon descriptions: "You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size."

RAW, you could make the argument that wielding a colossal hornbow dealing 8d6 would be possible. Gravity bow would boost this to 12d6.

Obviously this would be ridiculous as the bow would be around 30 feet tall and the "size" in the descriptions is likely referencing the size difference between short and long bows, but that is the only RAW reference that I know of.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Myself, I would use the same scale as the Melee weapons, with the Bow being a "two handed weapon." This would mean those made for Larger creatures would not be able to be used.

Crossbows, however, would only need Two Hands exclusively to be used, and larger ones would still have the penalty for accuracy on top of the size difference when using the larger weapon.

Though there is no specific rule about this with ranged weapons, that is my take. The real question is why the same ammo can be used no matter what size the weapon is. Right?


Technically, you can only use a weapon of an inappropriate size if it's "handedness" will be Light, 1H, or 2H.

Ranged Weapons are a different category. Changing it's size would presumably make it a => Ranged weapon. It is not one of the three eligible categories, and therefore, cannot be used if an inappropriate size.

However, if a player wanted to use a ranged weapon of an inappropriate size, I'd try to come up with a good approximation. In this case, Bows are NOT 2H weapons. They are 1H weapons that require an additional hand to operate.

From my post earlier in the topic:

Mallecks wrote:

My personal argument would be that Empty Quiver Style allows characters to use their Bows as a Heavy Mace which is a 1H weapon. This would allow a precedent to argue that bows are 1H weapons that require an additional hand to perform a ranged attack. Given that information, the mechanical consequences imply that a large bow would become a 2H weapon and would require a third arm to operate as a ranged weapon.[/spoiler]


Mallecks wrote:

Technically, you can only use a weapon of an inappropriate size if it's "handedness" will be Light, 1H, or 2H.

Ranged Weapons are a different category. Changing it's size would presumably make it a => Ranged weapon. It is not one of the three eligible categories, and therefore, cannot be used if an inappropriate size.

However, if a player wanted to use a ranged weapon of an inappropriate size, I'd try to come up with a good approximation. In this case, Bows are NOT 2H weapons. They are 1H weapons that require an additional hand to operate.

From my post earlier in the topic:

Mallecks wrote:
My personal argument would be that Empty Quiver Style allows characters to use their Bows as a Heavy Mace which is a 1H weapon. This would allow a precedent to argue that bows are 1H weapons that require an additional hand to perform a ranged attack. Given that information, the mechanical consequences imply that a large bow would become a 2H weapon and would require a third arm to operate as a ranged weapon.[/spoiler]

I agree. That is exactly what I was thinking. The entire notion that a large bow would require 3 hands is absurd. If you can hold a size large longsword in one hand, you can hold a size large longbow in one hand. That should be obvious. The 2 hands being required for a bow is clearly the second hand operating the string, as with any size of bow. If your arms are simply large enough to use large weapons, where and how would anyone think you needed 3 arms to operate a size large bow? It's as if people are making this more complicated than it actually is specifically to nerf martial classes from having a little bit of fun with obnoxiously large weapons.


A large sized long bow would be around 12 feet tall, so I would say it's impossible no matter how many hands you have.


Gallant Armor wrote:
A large sized long bow would be around 12 feet tall, so I would say it's impossible no matter how many hands you have.

A 6ft tall human would only have to have his arms pulled up to his head to shoot the bow, and that's if he is holding it straight up and down, instead of at an angle or horizontal.

Though, it would take two hands to hold the bow, and a third arm to draw the string. You take a penalty to the attack, which makes sense as this sounds like it would be more difficult to aim with than a normal sized bow.


Mallecks wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
A large sized long bow would be around 12 feet tall, so I would say it's impossible no matter how many hands you have.

A 6ft tall human would only have to have his arms pulled up to his head to shoot the bow, and that's if he is holding it straight up and down, instead of at an angle or horizontal.

Though, it would take two hands to hold the bow, and a third arm to draw the string. You take a penalty to the attack, which makes sense as this sounds like it would be more difficult to aim with than a normal sized bow.

Are you honestly saying you think a creature could use a bow that is twice their height? If your arms are extended above your head you wouldn't be able to properly draw back the bowstring and you wouldn't be able to aim the bow with any accuracy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Perhaps that would be the difference between a Long Bow (Two Handed) and a Short Bow (One Handed needing "two Hands" to fire)

Keep in mind that the size of the melee weapon is tied to the designation, so Two Handed weapons are the same size as the Wielder. Would you say that is the case for the Bow, or would make a difference between long and short?


Given the descriptions of weapon size categories a longbow would be a two handed weapon and a short-bow would be a one handed weapon most likely. This wouldn't be for how many hands it takes to use, just for size category purposes. A large shortbow would do the damage of a longbow so I see no reason not to allow that if a player wanted it for thematic purposes.

There are no rules that I know of on this however, so it would be a homerule.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Are you honestly saying you think a creature could use a bow that is twice their height? If your arms are extended above your head you wouldn't be able to properly draw back the bowstring and you wouldn't be able to aim the bow with any accuracy.
Longbow wrote:
At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood.

I assume that increasing the size of an object doubles its dimensions. So, a large bow should a little less than 10 feet in height. I can see someone shooting a bow that is 10 feet long. Most medium creatures can probably hold a longbow straight up and down by holding it at chest level.

So, yeah, it is probably going to be a little hard to shoot. You will need two hands to hold the longbow which is probably weird and then use a third arm to shoot. And maybe you have to aim it a little different. Like, you might have to hold it higher than normal, but then rotate it so you can shoot lower, something like that.

What can we do to make up for that? Oh yeah, let's give them a penalty on attack as well. Something like -2 to attack. Oh wait, that's the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon.


Greatsword wrote:
This immense two-handed sword is about 5 feet in length
Weapon Size wrote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

A normal creature couldn't wield a large longbow RAI.

Titan Mauler: Massive Weapons (Ex) wrote:

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

Titan Fighter: Incredible Heft (Ex) wrote:
At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. The penalty on attack rolls for using such weapons is reduced by 1, including when using over-sized two-handed weapons.

Both the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler's earlier abilities call out melee weapons in particular but the 3rd level abilities are worded in a way that could be argued to allow for wielding a large bow. I don't think it holds up RAW as Incredible Heft uses the phrase "more skilled" which implies a continuation of the precious ability which requires using a melee weapon and Massive Weapons requires a two handed weapon and ranged weapons do not get size categories.

Grand Lodge

For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....


Quintin Verassi wrote:
For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....

Jungotrip also has nothing to do with why Massive Weapons doesn't work with a bow. The reason it doesn't work RAW is that ranged weapons aren't given size categories as I mentioned in my post. I would agree that it is a reasonable homerule to allow it to work given that a longbow would likely be classified as a two-handed weapon by size.

As for a small sized longbow, there are no rules allowing for it so it wouldn't work RAW, but I think it would be a reasonable homerule to allow for a medium creature with or without any special abilities regarding over/undersized weapons to wield a small longbow as it would likely be classified as a one-handed weapon by size category (but not by hands required to use).


Gallant Armor wrote:
Weapon Size wrote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

A normal creature couldn't wield a large longbow RAI.

Titan Mauler: Massive Weapons (Ex) wrote:

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1

...

I think maybe we're arguing different things, because you keep linking Titan Mauler, and it isn't applicable. So, I'll explain my position to make sure.

1. RAW and possibly RAI: All ranged weapons must be appropriately sized. As a ranged weapon that was inappropriately seized would cause the ranged weapon to NOT be light, 1H or 2H. It would still be a ranged weapon.

2. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

You missed a bit from your weapon size quote. Not all weapons follow this pattern. If we were going to convert shuriken from a ranged weapon, I think we'd both agree that it's a light weapon. Are you advocating that it's a tiny object? Isn't more like a diminutive object? Why is a whip a 1H object at 15 feet?

3.

Empty Quiver Style wrote:
While using this style, you can make melee attacks with the chosen weapon as if it were a heavy mace (or a light mace for melee attack made with a hand crossbow or one-handed firearm), though you don’t automatically threaten the area around you as if you were wielding a melee weapon

This seems to imply that Shortbows and Longbows are 1H weapons. The only reason that they "require 2 hands to use" is because an additional hand is needed to shoot an arrow.

If a character was holding a large longbow, how would this feat be impacted? Would they still treat it as a 1H weapon? Or does the weapon size increase cause it to be a 2H weapon?

Grand Lodge

Gallant Armor wrote:
Quintin Verassi wrote:
For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....

Jungotrip also has nothing to do with why Massive Weapons doesn't work with a bow. The reason it doesn't work RAW is that ranged weapons aren't given size categories as I mentioned in my post. I would agree that it is a reasonable homerule to allow it to work given that a longbow would likely be classified as a two-handed weapon by size.

As for a small sized longbow, there are no rules allowing for it so it wouldn't work RAW, but I think it would be a reasonable homerule to allow for a medium creature with or without any special abilities regarding over/undersized weapons to wield a small longbow as it would likely be classified as a one-handed weapon by size category (but not by hands required to use).

You mentioned
Gallant Armor wrote:
Both the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler's earlier abilities call out melee weapons in particular but the 3rd level abilities are worded in a way that could be argued to allow for wielding a large bow. I don't think it holds up RAW as Incredible Heft uses the phrase "more skilled" which implies a continuation of the precious ability which requires using a melee weapon and Massive Weapons requires a two handed weapon and ranged weapons do not get size categories.

Specifically calling out the idea Massive Weapons works based off earlier abilities. This is plain false. It doesn't scale, isn't a more skilled, it is entirely unconnected.

Note that the ability says that: You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

Large is specially called out. You can use Large weapons without penalty. Yeah, you keep restating the same points, and claiming unrelated class abilites prove your points, but it is like linking Slashing Grace in a discussion about Dervish Dance. The rules are unrelated, and no matter how many times you bring up Titan Mauler/Fighter doesn't change the fact that they aren't related.

As far as hands, or the inappropriate weapon size, that is a general rule; Specific rules (Feats/Abilities) override General rules.


Quintin Verassi wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Quintin Verassi wrote:
For the record, Jotungrip (the previous ability for Titan Mauler) has nothing to do with Massive Weapons. It is a separate ability for other builds of the Titan Mauler, and only works with appropriately sized weapons. Gallant, do you think a normal creature could wield a small sized longbow? Under your argument they can't....

Jungotrip also has nothing to do with why Massive Weapons doesn't work with a bow. The reason it doesn't work RAW is that ranged weapons aren't given size categories as I mentioned in my post. I would agree that it is a reasonable homerule to allow it to work given that a longbow would likely be classified as a two-handed weapon by size.

As for a small sized longbow, there are no rules allowing for it so it wouldn't work RAW, but I think it would be a reasonable homerule to allow for a medium creature with or without any special abilities regarding over/undersized weapons to wield a small longbow as it would likely be classified as a one-handed weapon by size category (but not by hands required to use).

You mentioned
Gallant Armor wrote:
Both the Titan Fighter and Titan Mauler's earlier abilities call out melee weapons in particular but the 3rd level abilities are worded in a way that could be argued to allow for wielding a large bow. I don't think it holds up RAW as Incredible Heft uses the phrase "more skilled" which implies a continuation of the precious ability which requires using a melee weapon and Massive Weapons requires a two handed weapon and ranged weapons do not get size categories.

Specifically calling out the idea Massive Weapons works based off earlier abilities. This is plain false. It doesn't scale, isn't a more skilled, it is entirely unconnected.

Note that the ability says that: You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

Large is specially called out. You can use Large weapons without penalty. Yeah, you keep restating the same points, and...

That isn't what I said, reread my post. I said that the earlier abilities call out melee weapons but it could be argued that the 3rd level abilities work with a bow. I later pointed out that "more skilled" implies a continuation for incredible heft, but I make so such claim for Massive Weapons.

Not being able to wield a large bow or two handed weapon is a restriction not a penalty, so over-sized limbs doesn't apply. The ability does what it says it does; it removes a penalty, it doesn't let you do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.


Mallecks wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Weapon Size wrote:

Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

A normal creature couldn't wield a large longbow RAI.

Titan Mauler: Massive Weapons (Ex) wrote:

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1

...
I think maybe we're arguing different...

You make some good points, that leaves us with you can't wield a large bow at all RAW as there aren't rules as to how that would work.


Gallant Armor wrote:
You make some good points, that leaves us with you can't wield a large bow at all RAW as there aren't rules as to how that would work.

I was just trying to provide some perspective on how I would approach allowing a character to use an inappropriately sized longbow in a home game.

We agree, though. It can't be done RAW and may even be RAI.

51 to 98 of 98 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Tiefling Oversized Limbs+Orc Hornbow+Gravity Bow All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.