Quality of Life Magic / Items: How available is it?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


A female friend of mine asked me "What do ladies of (insert setting here) do when it's that time of month? Are there pads/etc? Is there magic for it?"

Now my first thought is "Yes, there should be magic for it, given that civilizations been around for thousands of years with access to magic". Then I thought "Would there be? I mean, magic is pretty expensive".

I eyeballed the cost of a magic belt that used the Clean function of Prestidigitation as a magic 'pad' to around 200gp at the cheapest even with limitations like "Only works for one specific purpose". Doable for the affluent but not so much for everyone else.

Then I wondered, what about other things we take for granted that improve our quality of life? Like flushable toilets? Heck, even toilet paper? Air fresheners? Clean water access? Food cooling/storing? Household cleaning? When the first vacuum cleaner became available it was a revolution...

So how about you? How accessible are quality of life type magics in your games? Are they subsidized by enlightened governments? Strictly for the affluent? Do any of the Good religions supply them or are they mostly secular made?

Thoughts?


They do the same thing that women did in medieval-ish times and it's not something we worry about on screen.

I doubt there's magic for it, mostly because relatively few people have access to magic or magic items. So even if there is a spell for it, you would still need a non-magical solution.

Toilets (not in a flushable form) have been around for a while. The romans just had water running through what were essentially out houses. The also used a sponge soaked in vinegar for personal cleansing.

Basically, just look at what people did before the Renaissance or Age of Enlightenment.


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Most of that can be accomplished with prestigitation. Enough people have access to 0 level magic that there are probably also “devices” to take care of certain biological things. Now it’s availability and affordability are different matters.


I agree with that. There are almost certainly magical solutions to any problem you can imagine, but the availability and affordability are probably pretty scarce.

Keep in mind the majority of people on the planet are level 3 or less. Those same people are mostly composed of NPC classes, especially commoners, experts, warriors, and aristocrats (I believe adepts are less common, but that may simply be my perception). Since most people are not capable of casting spells of any sort, it means it's not an easily accessible commodity.


I think you're underestimating just how widespread magic is. Especially in golarion.

I can't think of an example(in modules) of a tribe, village or town that doesn't have an adept, cleric or other caster as their local wiseman/woman. Even if the caster isn't a direct part of the community, there's always one within a day or two that people call upon when they need guidance or healing.

I agree that poorer and rural areas aren't likely to have easy access to magic items. But urban areas like large towns and cities would.

Heck there's even a table to work out just how easy it is for PCs to get combat/adventuring based magic items in a community of a certain size.

But realistically, minor quality of life type items should be even easier to get. After all, in a town of 1000 people, how many are going to want to buy a +1 sword vs how many would want a chamber pot cancels out unpleasant odors? And the chamber pot would a hell of a lot cheaper.


No, I'm not really.

It's been discussed in various thread about the world setting about how common PC classed NPCs are. They are rare, it just so happens that most of the interesting characters that your PCs need to interact with are going to be "rare" and "unique" characters that are interesting to interact with.

Yes, small towns have some sort of NPC spellcaster and they can only cast 1st level spells (based on the rules). It's also worth noting that the small town is 200 to 2000 people. That's a pretty low rate, and that makes it pretty scarce.

You're also making the bad assumption that these spell casters want to help. Most are going to be charging for their services, even if they charge very fair and reasonable rates the cost would generally put it beyond something commoners can afford. Even if your chamber pot is substantially cheaper (50 gp even) it would be more that a commoner could reasonable afford to spend on something of that nature considering the other things they're likely to going to want in life. And 50 gp is probably too cheap.


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I agreed that poorer people wouldn't have something like the chamber pot.
Someone like a successful merchant might though.

A cooling/ice box that extends the shelf life of food might be something even commoners might save up for however. Great as a family heirloom. And more practical than a sword for most people heh.

But leaving aside individual purchases for a moment, what about quality of life items/effects paid for by governments or organised religions?
Even in real world medieval times, 'public works' to improve the lives of the common people were a thing.

In the Eberron setting, things like magic streetlamps or magically cooled fountain water were around in the larger cities. I don't remember if Golarion cities have anything similar.


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It seems like the lifetime of these items should drop their cost and rarity. Magic items don’t really get worn out the way our technology does. Families could own them and just pass them down through the generations. Magic adventuring gear doesn’t age either, but a good chunk of it gets lost on various adventures, so the prices stay high.


Also you have to be level 3 (rare) to take craft wondrous item (more rare). So even if a caster is available there are further requirements that make such items exponentially more rare.

Shadow Lodge

Absent specific and presumably unusual PC class features, you also have to be 3rd level to take Brew Potion. And potions don't make good heirlooms. Yet they are generally considered available for purchase even in small settlements.

Claxon wrote:
Yes, small towns have some sort of NPC spellcaster and they can only cast 1st level spells (based on the rules). It's also worth noting that the small town is 200 to 2000 people. That's a pretty low rate, and that makes it pretty scarce.

What's your source for this? The settlement rules that I'm familiar with say a small town has 200-2000 people and 4th level spells, while a thorpe of fewer than 20 people still has 1st level spells (and a good chance of buying 1st level potions)


Weirdo wrote:

Absent specific and presumably unusual PC class features, you also have to be 3rd level to take Brew Potion. And potions don't make good heirlooms. Yet they are generally considered available for purchase even in small settlements.

Claxon wrote:
Yes, small towns have some sort of NPC spellcaster and they can only cast 1st level spells (based on the rules). It's also worth noting that the small town is 200 to 2000 people. That's a pretty low rate, and that makes it pretty scarce.
What's your source for this? The settlement rules that I'm familiar with say a small town has 200-2000 people and 4th level spells, while a thorpe of fewer than 20 people still has 1st level spells (and a good chance of buying 1st level potions)

Or a level one alchemist.

Potions are an exception I think. They’re cheap, easy, universally useful, and fast to make. A lot of groups would be smart to have a potion of cure light wounds in hand just in case. I can see more low level magic merchant types having brew potion because the profit turnaround time is so fast. Plus they’re one time use. That could keep you in business. As opposed to making one “bum cleaning prestigitation” wondrous magic item used at an entire household could be a family heirloom passed down for generations.

Edit: a 25 gp investment that might save your life is a better rate of return than a 500gp device to clean your butt when leaves/cheap paper/ sponges on sticks are all basically free.


Weirdo wrote:

Absent specific and presumably unusual PC class features, you also have to be 3rd level to take Brew Potion. And potions don't make good heirlooms. Yet they are generally considered available for purchase even in small settlements.

Claxon wrote:
Yes, small towns have some sort of NPC spellcaster and they can only cast 1st level spells (based on the rules). It's also worth noting that the small town is 200 to 2000 people. That's a pretty low rate, and that makes it pretty scarce.
What's your source for this? The settlement rules that I'm familiar with say a small town has 200-2000 people and 4th level spells, while a thorpe of fewer than 20 people still has 1st level spells (and a good chance of buying 1st level potions)

I pulled the spell casting bit from the good and services chart in the Core Rule Book.

Quote:

Spellcasting and Services

Sometimes the best solution to a problem is to hire someone else to take care of it.

Coach Cab: The price given is for a ride in a coach that transports people (and light cargo) between towns. For a ride in a cab that transports passengers within a city, 1 copper piece usually takes you anywhere you need to go.

Hireling, Trained: The amount given is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

Hireling, Untrained: The amount shown is the typical daily wage for laborers, maids, and other menial workers.

Messenger: This includes horse-riding messengers and runners. Those willing to carry a message to a place they were going anyway may ask for only half the indicated amount.

Road or Gate Toll: A toll is sometimes charged to cross a well-kept and well-guarded road to pay for patrols on it and for its upkeep. Occasionally, a large, walled city charges a toll to enter or exit (or sometimes just to enter).

Ship's Passage: Most ships do not specialize in passengers, but many have the capability to take a few along when transporting cargo. Double the given cost for creatures larger than Medium or creatures that are otherwise difficult to bring aboard a ship.

Spellcasting: The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at his convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question). If you want to bring the spellcaster somewhere to cast a spell you need to negotiate with him, and the default answer is no.

The cost given is for any spell that does not require a costly material component. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell. If the spell has a focus component (other than a divine focus), add 1/10 the cost of that focus to the cost of the spell.

Furthermore, if a spell has dangerous consequences, the spellcaster will certainly require proof that you can and will pay for dealing with any such consequences (that is, assuming that the spellcaster even agrees to cast such a spell, which isn't certain). In the case of spells that transport the caster and characters over a distance, you will likely have to pay for two castings of the spell, even if you aren't returning with the caster.

In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement) to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd- or 4th-level spells, a large city for 5th- or 6th-level spells, and a metropolis for 7th- or 8th-level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th-level spells.

So it seems like the settlement rules and these rules are in direct competition of one another. I did however get the number of people for a small town from the settlement rules, but I didn't look up spellcaster services there.


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I think the minor quality of life items will be far more prevalent than one would tend to think.

The thing is, magic items are eternal. Adventuring items are often destroyed or lost to the monsters when they beat an adventurer. However, quality of life items are rarely going to be lost. They're also easier to craft.

Thus I suspect they will be treasured items handed down from generation to generation, the production rate can be low and yet have the items be common.


You don't need a caster in town. Traveling salesmen are a thing. So are itinerant priests. While peasants may be afraid of casters, they are not afraid of salesmen. And holy men usually get a pass.

/cevah


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I think the two different rules sources don’t conflict but are trying to do different things. Settlement rules show the highest level spell someone in that place can cast. The services list say whether you can almost be guaranteed to find someone to cast a spell of that level for you. So in a small town there is likely someone who can cast a 4th level spell, but it probably won’t be the 4th level spell you need or they may not want to cast it for you. But there are enough spell casters in the small town, that you could probably find one to cast any given 1st level spell for you.


On the subject of costing, the cheapest non consumable, slotless, crafted wondrous item in the official magic item lists is Formula Alembic for 200gp.

Pretty pricey for the average bloke BUT it's an adventuring item that has actual, significant, game mechanic benefits.

For non adventuring, quality of life items, the price should be significantly cheaper.

Let's say something similar to a Couldron of Brewing. Fairly common trope in magic stories, a pot that self heats. 3000gp, way too much for even most minor nobles to bother with. BUT the cauldron also gives a +5 to Craft(alchemy), which is 2500gp under magic building rules. Remove that, and to make the cauldron costs...500gp.
Which is still a bit pricey, but I think demonstrates the point I'm trying to make.
Non adventuring magic items would be significantly cheaper, enough so that such things should be within the economic means of ordinary people. As big, once-in-a-lifetime purchases to be sure, but not completely unheard of.
Kind of like buying those huge, handmade wardrobes were in the past. They cost a lot and you had to save up for them, but once you bought one, it lasted your entire life and then became an heirloom.

Edit: Because math is hard derp.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Don't forget about this one, which is even cheaper.

Everburning torch: This otherwise normal torch has a continual flame spell cast on it. This causes it to shed light like an ordinary torch, but it does not emit heat or deal fire damage if used as a weapon. Price: 110 gp.


Ioun Torch is even cheaper at 75gp and you don't need to hold it.

But I didn't count them because you don't need Item Creation feat to make them, so they're more 'Spells cast on your behalf'.


It's really up to the GM and the group. There is no wrong or right answer.

For Eberron I can see it being popular because they use magic like we use science. For Forgotten Realms I'd say it's more like the Medieval Ages. Golarion with the way I see it is somewhere between the two as for how commonly magic is used.

However, that is just how I would do it.

PS: If a female player asked about it I'd likely allow it, but I wouldn't require magic unless it was some sort of self cleaning lady product. Even then since it's only flavor and has no mechanical impact I'd charge no more than 100gp, if that much.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

Consider the following:
Calistria's Kindness is a cheap alchemical version of "the pill". There's more than likely other cheap quality of life products that exist on Golarion, even without magic item creation.


LoudKid wrote:

Consider the following:

Calistria's Kindness is a cheap alchemical version of "the pill". There's more than likely other cheap quality of life products that exist on Golarion, even without magic item creation.

I believe there's also a "bachelor's friend", an alchemical male contraceptive pill, in one of the books.

This is a topic that doesn't really fit into "what adventurers need on a regular basis" -- some groups would prefer to gloss over such details, while others may worry about the internal consistency of the setting and want to see them answered, but even then adventurers on the move are not going to be able to avail themselves of whatever might be available in the town. So the focus of most supplements is on the adventuring gear.

That said, Goody White's Book of Folk Magic (from Sean K Reynolds Game) contains a number of PFRPG tools for, well, folk magic.. like easing childbirth, raising or lowering fertility, and so on.

Other books that have touched on this include:

The Witch's Handbook (Green Ronin, D&D 3.0): alchemical goods for avoiding pregnancy and enhancing hair growth, as well as a couple of spells that may be applicable. Note: The Crafter's Fortune and Crafter's Curse in the APG are, I thinkm based on similar spells by the same author (Steve Kenson) in this book.

Gary Gygax's Living Fantasy (Troll Lord Games, D&D 3.0 + Lejendary Adventures: This is a book focused on the details of the settings, and includes an eclectic mix of various details. Lists of titles, for example, and (my favorite) a series of "day in the life of a __________" illustrating what the daily life of a merchant, or various other professions, is like (wakes at x:00, opens the business at y:00, first meal of the day at z:00, etc.). In addition, there is a small section looking at some spells of "practical magic" (animate toy, accurate tally, frigid zone, and more).


Considering all the other magic items made for other daily issues, like magical self-cleaning diapers, pacifiers that actually pacify, self-rocking cribs, magical dishes or dishwashers, etc. (from old Dragon magazines and lesser known supplements), pretty much any modern convenience (aside from computer-based stuff)you could wish for has been thought up by someone at some point.

Exactly how 'modern' the conveniences are depends greatly on setting, part of the setting, and how rich people are. Somewhere like Glantri in Mystara has fire elemental powered steam and running water in most homes in the major cities, and likely has most other conveniences one could want. Alphatia is so ridiculously magical that magic items and spellcasting services of up to 9th level spells are pretty much ubiquitous in the civilized areas, and of pretty much any variety and nature you could imagine.
Other countries are far less 'advanced' and can run the gamut from 'barely knows metalworking' to post-Renaissance, and magic being anywhere from rare to common, though not as common as in the two aforementioned nations.

Shadow Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
I think the two different rules sources don’t conflict but are trying to do different things. Settlement rules show the highest level spell someone in that place can cast. The services list say whether you can almost be guaranteed to find someone to cast a spell of that level for you. So in a small town there is likely someone who can cast a 4th level spell, but it probably won’t be the 4th level spell you need or they may not want to cast it for you. But there are enough spell casters in the small town, that you could probably find one to cast any given 1st level spell for you.

that seems like the best way to reconcile the two bits of text. It seems reasonable to me that a thorp would have at least one adept (meaning at least 5% of the population are adepts), but that it would take a much bigger population before you could always buy any 1st level wizard, cleric, etc spell you needed.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Absent specific and presumably unusual PC class features, you also have to be 3rd level to take Brew Potion. And potions don't make good heirlooms. Yet they are generally considered available for purchase even in small settlements.
Or a level one alchemist.

That's why I put in the bolded caveat. Claxon brought up the assumption, which I agree with, that PC classes are relatively rare. In that case, a 1st level alchemist is probably less common than a 3rd level adept. The handful of PC-class alchemists running around would certainly mean that somewhat more NPCs are capable of making potions than could make wondrous items, but on its own I don't think it would account for potions being common while minor wondrous items are not to be found.

There are advantages to making wondrous items over potions. The kinds of potions you can make are limited by available spellcasting, so an unassisted 3rd level adept can make at best one 150gp potion (1st level spell, CL 3) per day, while a 3rd wizard could make a 300gp potion (2nd level spell, CL 3). But they could make a wondrous item worth up to 1,000gp, so if the market exists then there's a much better daily rate.

And why wouldn't there be a market? While the average person would certainly be more likely to buy a 50gp potion of Cure Light Wounds than a magical convenience costing hundreds of gp, the cost of living rules suggest that the "typical aristocrat" spends about 1,000gp per month. You can bet that these households would invest some fraction of that in odour-free chamber pots, sanitary supplies, food preservation, or temperature control for their living spaces. And wealthy merchants or artisans spending 100gp/month would probably aspire to own at least a few of these items.

There would probably be significantly more potions crafted and sold - at least of the commonly in demand spells - but if someone is willing to pay 500gp so that they and their descendants can enjoy cold drinks in the summertime, then enough 3rd level adepts will learn Craft Wondrous Item to make those things, and merchants will sell them.

Personally, if I wanted a setting with plentiful potions and very little permanent magic, I'd lower the level requirement on Brew Potion.


I would imagine that Brooches/Amulets/Rings of Youthful Appearance would be reasonably common among the affluent and vain elderly.


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Loren Pechtel wrote:

I think the minor quality of life items will be far more prevalent than one would tend to think.

The thing is, magic items are eternal. Adventuring items are often destroyed or lost to the monsters when they beat an adventurer. However, quality of life items are rarely going to be lost. They're also easier to craft.

Thus I suspect they will be treasured items handed down from generation to generation, the production rate can be low and yet have the items be common.

"Oh good, I just inherited great grandma's tampon of tidiness." : /


LoudKid wrote:

Consider the following:

Calistria's Kindness is a cheap alchemical version of "the pill". There's more than likely other cheap quality of life products that exist on Golarion, even without magic item creation.

That's a consumable, though.


blahpers wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:

I think the minor quality of life items will be far more prevalent than one would tend to think.

The thing is, magic items are eternal. Adventuring items are often destroyed or lost to the monsters when they beat an adventurer. However, quality of life items are rarely going to be lost. They're also easier to craft.

Thus I suspect they will be treasured items handed down from generation to generation, the production rate can be low and yet have the items be common.

"Oh good, I just inherited great grandma's tampon of tidiness." : /

A female in medieval times would be very happy indeed with such an inheritance.


Something to keep in mind, too, is that advances in technology spur responding changes in society.

Magic that is reliable and commonly available is a technology. As long as anyone can use it regardless of any inborn talent, it is a technology. As such, if it becomes common, it will cause changes in society as it is adopted. Mass availability of permanent lighting, for example, ushers in the 24-hour workday, which can lead to labor unrest and the "invention" of 3-shifts and other labor standards.

Likewise, the mass availability of magic devices that perform mundane or unpleasant tasks would have the same effects as automation today: putting large numbers of workers in those jobs out of work.

As a result, I would assume that any setting that is "mostly Medieval" (ignoring or downplaying the general filth and misery of the true period) mostly does not have enough such "magical technology" in common use -- otherwise, it would be more prominent and obvious.

Looking at previous D&D editions is not necessarily helpful, too.

2nd Edition, where some of the wildest commoner-magic-items showed up, was influenced by more of a focus on the world setting... moving BEYOND the dungeons that had been the main focus of prior editions. The BECMI D&D setting of Glantri was also a different rule set with a different expectation (and mechanism) for crafting.

D&D 3.x included an XP cost in the crafting of items... in addition to not being profitable in a money sense, Crafting as a business was detrimental to the growth of the caster. So crafters with no way of replenishing their XP (non-adventurers, in other words), would soon be unable to craft more items.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Ioun Torch is even cheaper at 75gp and you don't need to hold it.

But I didn't count them because you don't need Item Creation feat to make them, so they're more 'Spells cast on your behalf'.

I've always had a problem personally with the Ioun Torch concept.

Take a small LED camping lantern. Attach it to a string from your ceiling in a dark room (or mount it on a spinning bike wheel on a metal rod if you are so mechanically inclined).

Turn it on and start it spinning in a circle.

Try to do ANYTHING like read or perform a hands-on craft for more than 5 minutes in this messed-up strobe light environment. :)


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101 Spells for the Common Man by Zenith Games has some spells that could be used as quality of life magic. It is worth checking out if you want to expand the campaign beyond the adventure.


blahpers wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:

I think the minor quality of life items will be far more prevalent than one would tend to think.

The thing is, magic items are eternal. Adventuring items are often destroyed or lost to the monsters when they beat an adventurer. However, quality of life items are rarely going to be lost. They're also easier to craft.

Thus I suspect they will be treasured items handed down from generation to generation, the production rate can be low and yet have the items be common.

"Oh good, I just inherited great grandma's tampon of tidiness." : /

Like the real world everlasting pill , which were passed down the generations.


Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:

I think the minor quality of life items will be far more prevalent than one would tend to think.

The thing is, magic items are eternal. Adventuring items are often destroyed or lost to the monsters when they beat an adventurer. However, quality of life items are rarely going to be lost. They're also easier to craft.

Thus I suspect they will be treasured items handed down from generation to generation, the production rate can be low and yet have the items be common.

"Oh good, I just inherited great grandma's tampon of tidiness." : /
Like the real world everlasting pill , which were passed down the generations.

Gross.


.


ENHenry wrote:


I've always had a problem personally with the Ioun Torch concept.

Take a small LED camping lantern. Attach it to a string from your ceiling in a dark room (or mount it on a spinning bike wheel on a metal rod if you are so mechanically inclined).

Turn it on and start it spinning in a circle.

Try to do ANYTHING like read or perform a hands-on craft for more than 5 minutes in this messed-up strobe light environment. :)

When I raised my "campaign continuity" concerns regarding Ioun Torches with my players, they just insisted I was out to kill their fun.

My objections/concerns:

1) How common are burned-out Ioun Stones if the working stones are 1-in-10,000 occurrences on random tables? Common enough that every tiny hamlet has them? That large cities have all-you-can-buy bargain bins? Pricing them at 25 gp may reflect their "power" properly, but under the availability rules in settlements, it makes them too common.

2) How many times in television and movies have we heard "hold that light steady" when someone is doing the equivalent of Disable Device or trying to inspect something? Yet the whirling police light has no penalties?

3) Perception. If the lights in your group are constantly moving, so are your shadows... how does that not raise false-positive alarms, and eventually lead to laxness as you disregard moving shadows (until they're draining your STR).

4) Stealth. Right.. you're hiding with a light orbiting your head. Why not just jump up and down and shout "Here I am!"

5) More rarely, if you have a familiar that might perch on your shoulder, that's going to be a mess since the orbit of the ioun torch is 1-3 feet out. At 1 foot, that's probably going to be spooking your familiar a few times every minute while it has to dodge the orbiting stone.

The Ioun Torch is a nice, flavorful idea in concept, but when you look at the details, it starts to break down.


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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

A female friend of mine asked me "What do ladies of (insert setting here) do when it's that time of month? Are there pads/etc? Is there magic for it?"

Now my first thought is "Yes, there should be magic for it, given that civilizations been around for thousands of years with access to magic". Then I thought "Would there be? I mean, magic is pretty expensive".

I eyeballed the cost of a magic belt that used the Clean function of Prestidigitation as a magic 'pad' to around 200gp at the cheapest even with limitations like "Only works for one specific purpose". Doable for the affluent but not so much for everyone else.

Then I wondered, what about other things we take for granted that improve our quality of life? Like flushable toilets? Heck, even toilet paper? Air fresheners? Clean water access? Food cooling/storing? Household cleaning? When the first vacuum cleaner became available it was a revolution...

So how about you? How accessible are quality of life type magics in your games? Are they subsidized by enlightened governments? Strictly for the affluent? Do any of the Good religions supply them or are they mostly secular made?

Thoughts?

For actual magic pads, I'd price them as 1 shot items that last a month so 25 gp.

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