Improved Feint combat trick is useless for Improved Feint feat users?

Rules Questions

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Improved Feint feat allows the user to feint as a move action. The matching Improved Feint combat trick (Pathfinder Unchained) allows the user to feint as a move action.

Bearing in mind that one cannot access a specific combat trick unless one already has the matching combat feat (see the Combat Stamina feat, also in PU), there is no point to the combat trick under normal circumstances. (Aside from a corner case for an Intelligence-drained fighter who has the relevant feats/trick.)

That sounds like it goes against the design philosophy of combat tricks. So I am left wondering if there is some missing text for that particular combat trick.

It last till end of next turn. So you do both?

Then for two attacks they lose dex?

I guess the intention is that the Combat Stamina feat allows you to pick up Improved Feint without Int 13, similar to Dirty Fighting for combat maneuver feats. You could say that

You can select this feat even if you don’t meet the Ability score prerequisite (Intelligence 13).

is more specific than:

Since you have a stamina pool, you can spend your stamina points to use any combat tricks associated with combat feats you possess.

Specific trumps general - hence, it works. It still requires Combat Expertise (getting this one without Int 13 is possible, but not the regular case) and it says nothing about follow-up feats (like Greater Feint). Finally, one point of stamina will be reserved to keep Improved Feint running - unless circumstances make it more attractive to spend this final point.

EDIT: Follow-up feats are covered with the same wording

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In the case of a fighter not fulfilling the pre-requisites, I understand that the reservation of one point of stamina is required to keep running access to the feat.

Regardless of the question of pre-requisites and "virtual" feats, the combat trick still doesn't give any benefit to a fighter who already has Improved Feint.

"Oh wow, with this combat trick I can spend 5 stamina points to feint as a move action. That's something which I can already do as a move action without spending any stamina points."

Please, explain if I've misunderstood something here. This is particularly frustrating because the other combat tricks which I've looked at so far (which is not all of them) have a benefit for fighters who have the matching feat.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

The Improved Feint combat trick does not appear to have a benefit for fighters who already have the Improved Feint feat beyond allowing the character to bypass the Int prerequisite. You are correct in noting that this differs from the other Improved X feats, which typically offer some additional benefit beyond that normally provided by the base feat (typically a CMD boost). Why that is I couldn't say.

Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I can't think of any obvious way to rework that combat trick's second benefit without getting creative and making something up, like feinting as a free action or boosting your defense against somebody else feinting against you. This one needs some sort of errata.

If you look at the combat tricks of Greater Feint, Two-Weapon Feint, Improved Two-Weapon Feint, Disengaging Feint, Disengaging Flourish and Disengaging Shot, you will notice the same clause about Int 13. So it's at least consistent.

Greater Feint's combat trick's secondary benefit (feint as swift action, but only vs. next attack) makes more sense. Maybe the intended effect for the Improved Feint trick was: Feint as swift action, but you have to pay these 5 stamina.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That is precisely what I was thinking, and why I wondering if there was some misplaced/lost text.

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