Solarian Tweaks: Dodge Bonus?

[MagicA]

So one thing me and a friend of mine are looking at is how we could make a tweak to the solarian. Seeing as how the revelations and class features seem to emphasize mobility and melee we thoguht that the necessity of melee solarians needing heavy armor as a bit, antithetical to the lightly armored mobile combatant it seems to be flavored and base built for. In light of this we've been trying to find a way how either through a base feature or maybe a revelation could make up the difference in AC so that it isnt broken but stays competitive with a soldier in terms of it's ac.

Potentially letting it add its cha mod to ac instead of dex? as in it replaces dex to ac and uses charisma as long as it wears light armor?

[Hiruma Kai]

Solar Armor does provide a +1 bonus to AC at levels 1-9 and a +2 bonus at levels 10-20.

Allowing a Solarian to use Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC just means the class is less MAD. You won't run into higher numbers than would be possible with just choosing to put more points into dexterity, so it is one of the less problematic home rules you can use.

Keep in mind, a Str 14/Dex 14/Cha 14 build (possible with say Human for example) by level 10 is very competitive with a Soldier in heavy armor.

Using level 10 heavy armor, a Human Soldier with 14 dexterity and Armored Advantage is KAC 31/EAC 27.

Using level 10 light armor, a Human Solarian with 18 dexterity (14->16->18) is KAC 30/EAC 28. If they put a +2 upgrade into dexterity, then its KAC 31/EAC 29.

Even in level 1 armor, the 14 dexterity Solarian is only 1 point behind in KAC. KAC 15/EAC 14 versus KAC 16/EAC 14. Typically starting with a 14 Dexterity will leave you at most 2 points behind a soldier, and generally much less. Sometimes you'll even have better AC if you invest in dexterity personal upgrades.

[JetSetRadio]

I changed the bonus given to reflex to AC when in graviton mode. Thought being when in pho mode you are going all out to damage. When in grav mode you are controlling the gravity around you giving you a dodge bonus.

If you do the math only the beginning armor seems weak. If you do the math maxing out Dex and getting light armor is only on average minus -1 compared to heavy armor.

[MagicA]

yes @jetsetradio but the issue is that the melee solarain benefits more from being more str focused than dex, so to compensate for that they have to take heavy armor, my idea was coming up with a way to offset that ac loss when in light armor and only mediocre dex so they can do their job as a mobile frontliner

[JetSetRadio]

MagicA wrote:

yes @jetsetradio but the issue is that the melee solarain benefits more from being more str focused than dex, so to compensate for that they have to take heavy armor, my idea was coming up with a way to offset that ac loss when in light armor and only mediocre dex so they can do their job as a mobile frontliner

Well what does your Solarain attributes look like at lvl1, lvl5, lvl10, lvl15, and lvl20?

[MagicA]

for the standard effective str solarian (using human as a base) the stats are (using the mercenary theme)
level 1
str 16
dex 13
con 10
int 10
wis 10
cha 14

level 5 (with a str+2 upgrade)

str 20
dex 15
con 10
int 12
wis 10
cha 16

level 10 (with str +4 and cha +2 upgrades)

str 22
dex 17
con 12
int 12
wis 10
cha 20

level 15 (with str +6 upgrade and cha+4 upgrade)
str 24
dex 18
con 14
int 12
wis 10
cha 22

level 20 (with str +6 cha+4 and dex +2 upgrades)
str 24
dex 20
con 16
int 14
wis 12
cha 22

so using say level 1 as an example
str melee solarian with heavy armor using hidden soldier armor with a +1 dex has
eac: 14
kac: 16

a dex solar armor solarian with the kasatha microcord mk 1 with a +3 dex
eac: 15
kac: 17

now if we allowed the solarian to use their charisma in place of dex for light armor, with a 16 cha without solar armor and using kasatha microcord mk1

eac: 14
kac: 16
the same as the regular melee solarian with 13 dex and heavy armor

[JetSetRadio]

Is that math right? I just tried to add up the same numbers and at level 10 it looks like there is bonuses missing. It does it again at lvl 15.
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MagicA wrote:

level 10 (with str +4 and cha +2 upgrades)

str 22
dex 17
con 12
int 12
wis 10
cha 20

level 15 (with str +6 upgrade and cha +4 upgrade)
str 24 (+2 upgrade)
dex 18 (1 point = +1)
con 14 (1 point = +2)
int 12
wis 10
cha 22 (+2 upgrade)

Don't you get 2 more bonus points? At work in a break room so I might be wrong.

[MagicA]

remember that oncea stat reaches 18 (not including uprades)they only get one point per 5 levels for an increase

so for this i was just using an example of the build I would use in these scenarios

[JetSetRadio]

MagicA wrote:

remember that oncea stat reaches 18 (not including uprades)they only get one point per 5 levels for an increase

so for this i was just using an example of the build I would use in these scenarios

CRB p.21 wrote:

Each time you reach one of these level thresholds, choose four of your ability scores to increase. If that ability score is 17 or higher (excluding any ability increases from personal upgrades—see page 212), it increases permanently by 1. If it’s 16 or lower, it increases permanently by 2. You can’t apply more than one of these increases to the same ability score at a given level, but unlike at 1st level, these increases can make your ability scores go higher than 18.

I miss quote all the time so no worries. But the build is wrong if you didn't add the correct bonuses. If we are changing the fundamentals of a class we need correct numbers to make the class balanced compared to others, right?

So if I am right, add 1 more point to your lvl 10 numbers and 2 more points to lvl 15.

Please check though. Like I said I might be wrong.

[MagicA]

yes my level 10 and 15 numbers are correct except for the int and wis lol seems like they should be upgraded as well my bad

regardless getting back to the meat of this
i feel letting the solarian use their key ability in place of dex for their bonus to armor lets them stay competitive with the soldier for ac (which gets out ahead but then again its less MAD so it can afford to pump its dex secondarily and a gear boost to bump its ac)

yet still good for melee despite that

[Joshua James Jordan]

JetSetRadio wrote:

I changed the bonus given to reflex to AC when in graviton mode. Thought being when in pho mode you are going all out to damage. When in grav mode you are controlling the gravity around you giving you a dodge bonus.

If you do the math only the beginning armor seems weak. If you do the math maxing out Dex and getting light armor is only on average minus -1 compared to heavy armor.

I made the same change. I feel like it balances it out better, and most players seem to be picking photon over grav.

[MagicA]

see thats also why i was thinking of making this change
most melee solarians are going ot be spending 99.9 of combat in photon mode so an ac bonus fro graviton would be next to useless

so i feel taht the use of the key ability mod in place of dex in light armor isnt a bad change up you know

[JetSetRadio]

So I think a good question that I haven't asked is why are you improving Cha over Dex? What revelations are you going to be picking? The Solarian of my group uses his Dex more than his Cha.

Also, wouldn't a ranged Solarian just break the game by putting all there points in Dex and Cha making them break the game for other characters?

[MagicA]

well for this specific tweak
1. the cha modifier would be used in place of dex for their armor not in comination
2. this build would still be improving dex because well dex so so so damned much for a character in Starfinder (initiative, reflex, acronatics, piloting, stealth, sleight of hand, ranged attacks, etc)

so theyre still incentived to upgrade dex but their key ability will do more for them and not feel that useless as it does now beyond resolve and revelation dc's

[JetSetRadio]

Woah! I did not see that part. Well yeah right on. If it isn't a combo then it's not that bad. Still using mine because I feel without it my player would never go in graviton.

[MagicA]

i mean that's fair but i feel that even with the ac bonus
due to just how much photon mode and its revelations are just more conducive to melee, then a melee solarian will be in photon more often than not

[HWalsh]

JetSetRadio wrote:

Is that math right? I just tried to add up the same numbers and at level 10 it looks like there is bonuses missing. It does it again at lvl 15.

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MagicA wrote:

level 10 (with str +4 and cha +2 upgrades)

str 22
dex 17
con 12
int 12
wis 10
cha 20

level 15 (with str +6 upgrade and cha +4 upgrade)
str 24 (+2 upgrade)
dex 18 (1 point = +1)
con 14 (1 point = +2)
int 12
wis 10
cha 22 (+2 upgrade)

Don't you get 2 more bonus points? At work in a break room so I might be wrong.

The "Standard Melee Array" (for a human) with Mercenary, Ace Pilot, Themeless, or Icon looks like this:

01: 16/13/10/10/10/14
05: 18/15/10/10/12/16
10: 19/17/10/12/14/16
15: 20/17/12/12/16/18
20: 20/18/14/14/18/18

PU: 26/20/14/14/18/22 (+6 Str, +4 Cha, +2 Dex)

This build usually necessitates purchasing Heavy Armor and Iron Willed in order to make up for the required stats. There is a version that reverse the Con and Wis, but usually that is a poor idea as there are more Wisdom skills than Con skills, which is 0. There are a couple that hold off on adding +2 to Charisma at 5 going for +2 to Intelligence we well. This tends not to affect the final array tally.

[HWalsh]

Honestly there are really 2 fixes that would "Fix" the Solarian in my opinion:

1. Move Solarian to 6+Int Skills per level. They desperately need it.

2. Allow a Solarian to use their Charisma Bonus in place of their Constitution or Wisdom Bonus for the purposes of saves (Choose one, when the power is granted). The Solarian would use whichever is higher.

This gives the Solarian more leeway in where/how they place stats.

It keeps an emphasis on Strength/Dex/Charisma but allows them to actively build around it.

01: 18/14/10/10/10/11
05: 19/16/10/10/12/13
10: 20/18/10/10/14/15
15: 21/19/10/10/16/17
20: 22/20/10/10/18/18

PU: 26/26/10/10/18/20

This allows for a Light Armored Melee Solarion to not lose out on skills *and* KAC/EAC - The downside, they are lacking SEVERLY in Resolve at low levels to the point of being very dangerous.

Note:

This mimics one of the Standard Operative builds as well:

01: 11/18/10/14/10/10
05: 11/19/12/16/12/10
10: 11/20/14/18/14/10
15: 11/21/16/19/16/10
20: 11/22/18/20/18/10

PU: 11/26/20/20/24/10

This also is why the Operative has the highest saves in the game.

+6/+12/+12 base

Fort +17 (+6 Base, +6 Ring, +5 Con)
Ref +20 (+12 Base, +8 Dex)
Will +19 (+12 Base, +7 Wis)

vs the Melee Solarian, who can, at best (without feats, as the Operative does above) using one of the standard builds, get to:

Fort +14 (+12 Base, +2 Con)
Ref +17 (+6 Base, +6 Ring, +5 Dex)
Will +16 (+12 Base, +4 Wis)

[JetSetRadio]

MagicA wrote:

i mean that's fair but i feel that even with the ac bonus

due to just how much photon mode and its revelations are just more conducive to melee, then a melee solarian will be in photon more often than not

You mind rewriting this with punctuations? I am completely lost.

[MagicA]

@Hwalsh part of this was to help kinda reduce the fear tax on melee solarians while keeping their ac competitive

@jetsetrario
What I wa trying to say was this. A melee solarian is more often than not better served being in photon attunement because photon attunement offers them more melee bonuses. Bonus damage, mobility boosts, resistances etc depending on the revelations chosen
Whereas on graviton very little there is enough to make a melee solarian choose to attune to graviton over photon