Skald + Barbarian = Bad Combination?


Advice


If I understand correctly, the Skald's Inspired Rage is a morale bonus so it won't stack with the Barbarbian's Rage...and the Skald's Inspired Rage won't allow the Barbarian to use the Barbarian's Rage Powers...so is a Barbarian better paired with a Bard rather than a Skald since Inspire Courage would actually grant bonuses? Or am I missing something?


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If the Barbarian wants to use their own Rage Powers, they need to expend rounds of their own rage. If it isn't a major battle or if the Skald is giving rage powers that are more advantageous in the battle, they can use the Skald's rage. Note that even when taking the Skald's raging song, they have the option of using their own rage modifiers -- it just blocks the rage powers and prevents them from getting fatigued.

Provided they are going for different rage powers, I think there are times that it is useful. They just don't get as much from it as a fighter.


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Which is kind of terrible design, from a world perspective. I mean, Skalds are Bards for Barbarian tribes and yet their people do not benefit from their song. Instead, they get more use from a civilized Bard using Inspire Courage.

Weird, right?


use the barbarian archetype that makes you gain dex instead of con and str and problem solved :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree that it is counter intuitive unless you assume much of the tribe is warriors. The warriors take the song always, while the Barbarian heroes are able to do things without the song.

As a PC group, just make sure that the Barbarian and Skald go for different rage powers. That way there will be times that the Barbarian will benefit from taking the song.

Urban Barbarians (or Skalds) can pump Dex.


Alternatively, you could do Skald + Unchained Barbarian, it's functionally the same if you're looking strictly at the attack/damage increases.

Regular Barbarian + Skald isn't necessarily bad though... just not optimal without careful planning.

Silver Crusade

ShroudedInLight wrote:
Which is kind of terrible design, from a world perspective. I mean, Skalds are Bards for Barbarian tribes and yet their people do not benefit from their song.

No they benefit, they can use their own bonuses without spending their rage rounds and aren't fatigued afterwards, and get all the rider effects for the Skald's rage.


What about Skald + Unchained Barbarian?

Liberty's Edge

I've always thought they were a good combination.

Barbarian on their own has X rounds of rage and can use rage powers in X of those rounds.

Barbarian with a Skald has up to X+Y rounds of rage, gets Skald rage powers for Y of those rounds and Barbarian rage powers for up to X of those rounds (less if they 'overlap' with Skald song so that they are getting BOTH Skald and Barbarian rage powers in the same round).

I'm not seeing the 'downside'. They lose nothing and gain a lot.

Now Skald + Barbarian + Bloodrager + Anger Phantom Spiritualist with Furious Spell... that's some good times. :]


CBDunkerson wrote:
less if they 'overlap' with Skald song so that they are getting BOTH Skald and Barbarian rage powers in the same round

Nope.

"When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects."

Rysky wrote:
No they benefit, they can use their own bonuses without spending their rage rounds

Nope.

"However, inspired rage does not allow the ally to activate abilities dependent on other rage class abilities, such as rage powers, blood casting, or bloodrager bloodlines; the ally must activate her own rage class ability in order to use these features."

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Which is kind of terrible design, from a world perspective. I mean, Skalds are Bards for Barbarian tribes and yet their people do not benefit from their song. Instead, they get more use from a civilized Bard using Inspire Courage.

Weird, right?

That was precisely my concern, yes. I'd expect a Barbarbian + Skald to be better than Barbarian + Bard since, say, a Rogue + Skald is worse than Rogue + Bard. I thought Skalds would be specialists at buffing STR types at the cost of not buffing others at much (or at all for spellcasters casting spells).


A further complication is the April 2015 Advanced Class Guide FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?

No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.

Thus, no character can combine a skald's Raging Song with the Urban Barbarian's Dex-improving Rage nor the Unchained Barbarians non-attribute Rage, because that would be two rages at once.

CBDunkerson's idea of using the Raging Song when not using personal Rage works, since those don't occur at the same time. But that becomes a minor benefit past low levels, when the barbarians have enough rage rounds to last the day.


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Balkoth wrote:
Rysky wrote:
No they benefit, they can use their own bonuses without spending their rage rounds

Nope.

"However, inspired rage does not allow the ally to activate abilities dependent on other rage class abilities, such as rage powers, blood casting, or bloodrager bloodlines; the ally must activate her own rage class ability in order to use these features."

Uuuuuuuh... Rysky's right though.

Inspired Rage wrote:
If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian’s rage, bloodrager’s bloodrage, or skald’s inspired rage), she may use the Strength, Constitution, and Will saving throw bonuses, as well as AC penalties, based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald (still suffering no fatigue afterward).


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is undefined if an Unchained Barbarian or Unchained Bloodrager can use their own Dex bonus or not. I am inclined to allow it.

Skald + Bloodrager doesn't work very well since it prevents the Bloodrager from using their bloodline powers. Skald + Barbarian (unchained or CRB) can work together though. Pick which set of rage powers you want and decide if you can risk becoming fatigued afterwards.

Grand Lodge

I beg to differ. Bloodrager and skald work incredibly well together. Just grab a bloodline valet familiar instead of a bloodline power as a bloodrager, and pick up Amplified Rage. I'm a huge advocate for that. +8 morale to str/con at level 2 when using inspired rage.

Liberty's Edge

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Balkoth wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
less if they 'overlap' with Skald song so that they are getting BOTH Skald and Barbarian rage powers in the same round

Nope.

"When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects."

Hmmm... when that FAQ came out I took it to mean that you can't stack rage bonuses to Str, Con, Will saves and the like. However, I can see where it could certainly be taken to mean that you only benefit from one set of rage powers or the other. However, even in that case the Barbarian still isn't losing anything... they have just as much access to their own rage powers as before... plus some number of additional rounds of rage (w/o fatigue) from the Skald with Skald rage powers.

Balkoth wrote:
Rysky wrote:
No they benefit, they can use their own bonuses without spending their rage rounds

Nope.

"However, inspired rage does not allow the ally to activate abilities dependent on other rage class abilities, such as rage powers, blood casting, or bloodrager bloodlines; the ally must activate her own rage class ability in order to use these features."

Here you are clearly off base. A Barbarian DOES get their own rage bonuses without spending rounds of rage while benefiting from inspired rage;

"If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage), she may use the Strength, Constitution, and Will saving throw bonuses, as well as AC penalties, based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald (still suffering no fatigue afterward)."

Sovereign Court

Pick Urban Skald and Community-Minded Trait. On your turn, pick Dex for Urban Skald. Everyone accepts because you are giving them bonus Dex until their next turn... that will last for another 2 round after their turn comes up and they decide to use their own rage, or not accept (casters).


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Syries wrote:
I beg to differ. Bloodrager and skald work incredibly well together. Just grab a bloodline valet familiar instead of a bloodline power as a bloodrager, and pick up Amplified Rage. I'm a huge advocate for that. +8 morale to str/con at level 2 when using inspired rage.

I don’t know how you are getting +8 to Strength and Constitution. As others in this thread have quoted multiple times, the FAQ makes you choose your source of rage. You can use the modifiers from your own rage or the Skald’s raging song — not both.

Bloodline powers tend to be a big deal for Bloodragers, which is why I believe they give up more when accepting a Skald’s raging song than a Barbarian would and the higher level you get the more important it becomes.


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BretI wrote:
Syries wrote:
I beg to differ. Bloodrager and skald work incredibly well together. Just grab a bloodline valet familiar instead of a bloodline power as a bloodrager, and pick up Amplified Rage. I'm a huge advocate for that. +8 morale to str/con at level 2 when using inspired rage.

I don’t know how you are getting +8 to Strength and Constitution. As others in this thread have quoted multiple times, the FAQ makes you choose your source of rage. You can use the modifiers from your own rage or the Skald’s raging song — not both.

Bloodline powers tend to be a big deal for Bloodragers, which is why I believe they give up more when accepting a Skald’s raging song than a Barbarian would and the higher level you get the more important it becomes.

Syries refers to the Amplified Rage valet familiar trick.

Amplified Rage (Teamwork)
Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, rage class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).

A valet familiar copies all its master's teamwork feats, so it has Amplified Rage, too. Its Amplified Rage might be inactive, since it is not an orc or half-orc and lacks the rage class feature; nevertheless, it still counts as an adjacent ally with the feat. Next, we need to get the familiar raging, so that it counts as an adjacent raging ally with the feat. Rage spell or Inspired Rage can do that. Thus, that particular bloodrager loves to work with a skald.


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Jae Wolftail wrote:
Uuuuuuuh... Rysky's right though.
CBDunkerson wrote:
Here you are clearly off base. A Barbarian DOES get their own rage bonuses without spending rounds of rage while benefiting from inspired rage;

Let's not talk past each other.

At levels 1-7, 11-15, and 20 a Barbarian or Bloodrager can gain +2 Str/+2 Con/-1 AC (and some Will in there) by accepting the Skald's rage but using the Barbarian's or Bloodrager's bonuses. However, this means the Barbarian loses every Rage Power and the Bloodrager loses their Bloodline powers AND their spellcasting. That's not worth the 2 Str/2 Con unless Rage is being deliberately rationed (or you're super low level, I suppose).

So in a big battle where everyone is going all out and people are novaing, a Barbarian or Bloodrager is not going to get any benefit from the Skald's raging song.

CBDunkerson wrote:
However, even in that case the Barbarian still isn't losing anything... they have just as much access to their own rage powers as before... plus some number of additional rounds of rage (w/o fatigue) from the Skald with Skald rage powers.

But the Bard would be giving them the Inspire Courage bonus WHILE the Barbarian is raging. That's the whole problem. The bard can raise the Barbarian to greater heights than a Skald. Which doesn't seem to make any conceptual sense.

Liberty's Edge

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Sounds like a play style issue. You're treating having extra rounds of rage bonuses to Str and Con as being of little value and instead looking for options to 'nova' powers on top of each other for a brief period.

If your game trends towards the '15 minute adventuring day' then yes the benefits a Skald can grant to a Barbarian are limited. If you instead have long slogs where everyone has to ration daily abilities for the right circumstances then a Skald is of tremendous value to a Barbarian.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:

Sounds like a play style issue. You're treating having extra rounds of rage bonuses to Str and Con as being of little value and instead looking for options to 'nova' powers on top of each other for a brief period.

If your game trends towards the '15 minute adventuring day' then yes the benefits a Skald can grant to a Barbarian are limited. If you instead have long slogs where everyone has to ration daily abilities for the right circumstances then a Skald is of tremendous value to a Barbarian.

But the Bard is useful in either game, making it better than the Skald. That's the issue people have. Not that the Skald is useless to a Barbarian, but the Bard is better. Doesn't fit the concept very well.

I like the Skald, but it does occupy a weird design space. It can be incredibly potent but only when buffing the right party.


If you can, Skald and Bard make a pretty good mix.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:

Sounds like a play style issue. You're treating having extra rounds of rage bonuses to Str and Con as being of little value and instead looking for options to 'nova' powers on top of each other for a brief period.

If your game trends towards the '15 minute adventuring day' then yes the benefits a Skald can grant to a Barbarian are limited. If you instead have long slogs where everyone has to ration daily abilities for the right circumstances then a Skald is of tremendous value to a Barbarian.

But the Bard is useful in either game, making it better than the Skald. That's the issue people have. Not that the Skald is useless to a Barbarian, but the Bard is better. Doesn't fit the concept very well.

I like the Skald, but it does occupy a weird design space. It can be incredibly potent but only when buffing the right party.

Better in some cases.

Skald has better weapon and armor proficiencies and good Fort save. They are more likely to mix it up in melee than a Bard. Assuming they pick different rage powers, the Barbarian can choose which is more advantageous for that fight. They also get Uncanny Dodge like the Barbarian does.

If the fighting day is always less than a Barbarian’s rounds of rage, then their rage song doesn’t help the Barbarians. In times where you have a longer than normal adventuring day, or when you need to move long distances via Song of Marching the Skald’s song is very useful.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You definitely can make it work, I don't think anyone was arguing that.

But that doesn't take away from the point that the two classes don't mesh very well in that their main damage boosting abilities are partially exclusive with each other, which is a shame and kind of uninuitive given their themes.


CBDunkerson wrote:
instead looking for options to 'nova' powers on top of each other for a brief period.

How would you define a "brief period?"

CBDunkerson wrote:
If your game trends towards the '15 minute adventuring day' then yes the benefits a Skald can grant to a Barbarian are limited. If you instead have long slogs where everyone has to ration daily abilities for the right circumstances then a Skald is of tremendous value to a Barbarian.

Well, let's bring some actual numbers into this. The party is level 9 currently and the two characters in question are a level 9 Skald and a level 5 Bloodrager/4 Dragon Disciple. The BR/DD has 4 (base) + 8 (levels) + 3 (Con) + 5 (FCB) = 20 rounds of rage per day.

On top of that, the BR/DD is reliant on their Bloodrage to grow their claws and their bite -- without those natural weapons the BR/DD is massively weaker.

But from what I hear, fights in "optimized" parties tend to last 2-3 rounds. Let's say 3 rounds -- that means the BR/DD has enough rage rounds for 6 encounters, close to 7. However, a lot of people report closer to 4-5 rounds...again, let's go with the higher number of 5. That's still 4 encounters of 5 rounds each assuming the BR/DD is raging every round for the entire fight.

My days, frankly, are longer than either of these due to tougher fights and maximized HP on creatures. But the players know not to pop Rage immediately on easier fights or to end it early during wrap up.

Perhaps most importantly -- how many rounds of song do you think the SKALD has? Because the Skald is buffing other people in the party (and himself). Or do you think the Skald is avoiding singing until the BR/DD is out of rage?

And yes, sometimes there's only one or two significant fights in a day. Those fights have also lasted 15-20 rounds -- which is within the BR/DD's daily limit. Not to mention the BR/DD could spend one feat (Extra Rage or whatever it's called) to gain 30% more rage rounds per day if he felt it was worth it.

P.S. Here's an example of a recent day the party faced at level 9 (six people, slightly above WBL, some extra consumables, books restricted mostly to CRB/APG/ACG)...

A. 16 Winter Wolves (CR13 total)

B. Three Frost Giants (CR12 total) and six Winter Wolves (CR10 total), so something like a CR 13 fight technically.

C. Four Frost Giants (CR13 total).

D. Four Remorhaz (CR11, though one had templates so probably CR12).

E. Seven Frost Giants (CR 14ish total...but somewhat spread out over a large valley so the party could sort of divide and conquer).

F. Two Frost Giants (CR11) and four Winter Wolves with one templated Winter Wolf, so something like CR12-13 total.

At this point there was still another encounter...

G. the Frost Giant Jarl (CR11) and a Rage Demon (CR11), total of CR13, but in a practical sense the most dangerous encounter of the day. However, the PCs were battered and a bit careless/splurging earlier and decided to hide and rest...which resulted in the two "bosses" fleeing and causing a bunch of havoc and some negative results for the PCs.

But hey, maybe that's a 15 minute adventuring day from your perspective!

However, when the party wanted to rest...both the Skald and the BR/DD were low on Rage Rounds. Because, again, the Skald was buffing himself and several other party members throughout all of those fights.

Liberty's Edge

Balkoth wrote:
However, when the party wanted to rest...both the Skald and the BR/DD were low on Rage Rounds. Because, again, the Skald was buffing himself and several other party members throughout all of those fights.

In that case, I'm not seeing the problem. The Skald COULD be useful to the Bloodrager... but apparently the composition of the rest of the party makes them MORE useful there.


CBDunkerson wrote:
In that case, I'm not seeing the problem. The Skald COULD be useful to the Bloodrager... but apparently the composition of the rest of the party makes them MORE useful there.

Because if the Skald was a Bard he'd have been useful to the rest of the party AND the Bloodrager throughout all of those fights. That's the problem.

Alternatively, if the Bloodrager was a Fighter/Ranger/Slayer/Paladin/etc then he'd be getting the Skald's buffs throughout all of those fights. That's the other problem.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
CBDunkerson wrote:
In that case, I'm not seeing the problem. The Skald COULD be useful to the Bloodrager... but apparently the composition of the rest of the party makes them MORE useful there.

You can say you don't think it's a problem but it seems a bit disingenuous to say you can't 'see' what the issue is. The asynergy between the two classes is kind of self evident, as is why people might be irked by that given their thematic overlap and just how damn niche the skald is already.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah. I mean, the Skald's a pretty solid class on it's own. Great skills, 6th level casting, martial weapon proficiency, medium armor. It's a little too MAD and fragile to be the world's best tank, but it's a good class. But it's meant to be a party buffer. And thematically, it seems like something which would work BEST with a whole tribe of barbarians, propelling them to even further heights of bloodlust and rage. Yeah, the Skald is still good on it's own, and there are situations where it excels over the bard.

But it is weird that bards are better at inspiring barbarians. Given Bards are also better at buffing dex based characters, ranged characters, and casters, it feels weird to not let Skalds have this one thing.

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