Player's guide?


War for the Crown

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pauljathome wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
When a lot of things happen at once......

But it isn't quite that simple. On several occassions in several threads Paizo employees have stated or strongly implied that one of the reasons that THIS particular product has slipped as much as it has is because it is Free. And my point has always been that this is NOT seen as "a free product provided to us by Paizo because they're great people", its seen as part of the integral product that is an Adventure Path.

This. This here is the core of how I feel at the moment - TWO books into the AP and still no Players Guide. The Players Guide (offered free or not) is part and parcel of what I feel I'm paying for when I subscribe to these Adventure Paths. It's "Free" so that players and potential customers can take a look, kick the tires, and/or prep their new characters for starting the AP, but make no mistake - as a subscriber it's part of the AP that I'm purchasing. At least that's how I feel.

The coffee analogy is great and all, and I'm always happy to see James posting when stuff like this happens (it tells me Paizo IS paying attention, really), but if Paizo does a post-mortem on this ball being dropped (and they really should - like any good Project Management, finishing with a post-mortem is vital) - I hope they consider the following:

-Impact of unforeseen events (Flu, etc). Murphy LIKES to show up and mess things up when you can least afford him to. I hate Murphy. My takeaway? I always plan for Murphy and his damn Law to try and make a cameo in my best laid plans.

-Resource management: it's not like Paizo doesn't know about 'upcoming coffee conventions', or the timing of the 2E Release. My guess, Paizo was close to red-lining their folks and all it took was some key people being felled by flu (say hi to Murphy) to kill off any slack built into their projects (if there was any) - so, something had to give - and it was the Player's Guide for this AP.

I'm not paying for 2E (yet) but I AM paying for this current AP (and future ones). I hope Paizo focuses MORE resources onto fixing this lapse and get the Players Guide out before HALF of the AP has been released - and if that means taking the foot off the 2nd Edition gas for a week or so, DO IT.

My compliments to Paizo on this: The first two installments of this AP have really been quite extraordinary. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all comes together and it's because it's such a good AP, so far, my frustration in not having a timely Player's Guide to go with it is exacerbated.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I haven't even read through the first book yet.


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I'm very grateful for the Player Guides. I always get a couple printed out and pass them around before beginning a new AP - they're a terrific way to get people into the setting and to spark questions. I was really disappointed when the first iteration was abandoned (the first RotRL and Savage Tide ones) and when the second attempt via player companions was discontinued. I greatly appreciate that you managed to find a third way - even players who aren't that into the setting will usually give them a skimread.

That said, they're hardly essential so thanks very much for continuing your commitment to put them out, even in the midst of what (I believe) is traditionally 'crunch time' at Paizo.

Dark Archive

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Is it weird that I actually consider it great if people are delaying their campaign because player's guide isn't out because I that strongly believe that you should read as many parts of ap as possible before running it? <_<

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

People complaining about the lack of a PG shows how much those products are popular and used because of the value they bring and the quality and efforts that Paizo people invest in them.

I sincerely hope that Paizo looks at downloads rather than sales when assessing a product's importance to customers when they prioritize their work


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"This is a perfect storm type situation. It happened in part because we are super busy with projects that we hope you'll really like. But it hasn't happened before, and it shouldn't happen again." -- This is a good explanation! Everyone knows that perfect storms happen sometimes. You guys did sixteen free Players Guides on time, so being a bit late with $17 ain't no big thing.

"This is a free product, and we treat it as a 'labor of love' to be worked on in the moments we can spare from more important activities" -- That was a less good explanation. It might be true; but.

Doug M.


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My biggest gripe in all this was the radio silence from Paizo. Obviously, I wasn't expecting someone to show back up to this threat every day and say "not today", but the weeks of silence while everyone was (for the most part) politely posting their opinions on the matter and trying to stay positive has left me a bit bitter. It was like they weren't even acknowledging that it was a problem after the initial "it's not coming out on time; flu, amiright?" I was pleased to finally see Adam Daigle post something, and now James Jacobs, who was much more involved with discussing people's concerns and trying to put some perspective on it all (nothing against Adam; if I understood him right, he wasn't at all involved with this product and wasn't obligated to say anything anyway).

Despite someone finally coming forward and addressing this, I still have two problems: First - and maybe I'm alone here - the huge stretches of silence were never actually addressed; when something goes wrong with free coffee refills, an employee would still revisit the customer at regular intervals, re-apologize, re-address the situation, explain what's being done to fix the problem, and give some sort of assurance that the coffee refills won't be gone forever and the customer hasn't been forgotten. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for Paizo to kiss my butt like I'm an angry restaurant customer and hold my hand until the horrible delay has ended, but two weeks of silence following a single comment from someone who wasn't even involved in the product still seems - I'll use the term again - like it's creeping into negligence territory.

My second problem has to do with everyone who's been politely asking for Paizo to at least post the campaign traits. James did a great job of explaining how a small bump in one department can ripple out and affect other departments, and that a bunch of bumps can magnify this even further. However, I have a hard time believing that the campaign traits at least aren't done. Not only were they still not posted, but James didn't even acknowledge this request. And even if they weren't done, informing us that this was the reason Paizo couldn't post them would have been very good to know. I guess this is still largely related to my first problem - even though it's great to see James posting and acknowledging our frustration and informing us that it's so close to coming out, most of his posts were in Paizo's own defense, and didn't seem to have much more of an agenda than saying "it's not our fault, don't be upset; if you're upset, you're being unreasonable", instead of saying "we get it, we're sorry that this happened, we're working as hard as we can to fix it, but in the mean time, here's a bone [post campaign traits]. Now that you guys have that, and I've apologized, let me explain free coffee refills so we can all look at this with some perspective."


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CorvusMask wrote:
Is it weird that I actually consider it great if people are delaying their campaign because player's guide isn't out because I that strongly believe that you should read as many parts of ap as possible before running it? <_<

I wouldn't say weird. But kind of a jerk response to be happy that there's pressure on everyone to play things your way rather than having as much ability to decide for themselves as possible.

On that note, I really hope the lesson Paizo takes from this is that they don't try to tie in the traits into the first adventure unless they plan to reprint the traits inside the adventure. It usually works out well, so I don't say that lightly, but even when everything has gone completely perfectly, I'd still rather any published adventure be as complete and self-contained as possible.


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Life is too short for me to get upset over a late player's guide.

And Paizo does a better job of keeping us informed then any other RPG company out there.


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captain yesterday wrote:

Life is too short for me to get upset over a late player's guide.

And Paizo does a better job of keeping us informed then any other RPG company out there.

Product slippages happen. It used to happen all the time in the first half of each year, even with their core product (the APs).

We all set our own standards, of course. For me the fact they bother producing player guides (including this one) is terrific. I’d rather have them be late 10% of the time than have them decide they are too much trouble to fit in the schedule and cut them.

If they do have to let a product slip, I’m glad it’s something like this, not a more substantial product (as used to be routine).

Dark Archive

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AnimatedPaper wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Is it weird that I actually consider it great if people are delaying their campaign because player's guide isn't out because I that strongly believe that you should read as many parts of ap as possible before running it? <_<
I wouldn't say weird. But kind of a jerk response to be happy that there's pressure on everyone to play things your way rather than having as much ability to decide for themselves as possible.

Hmm, that can be interpreted as me being happy about it? Weird, I just thought it was more logical that way. Still, taking notes on that being rude sentiment to express. Thank you for answering!


The Raven Black wrote:
People complaining about the lack of a PG shows how much those products are popular and used because of the value they bring and the quality and efforts that Paizo people invest in them.

Bingo. People *like* the Players Guides. Like them and use them. To extend the coffee metaphor, if it was watery bad coffee nobody would much care if they stopped serving it.

Quote:
I sincerely hope that Paizo looks at downloads rather than sales when assessing a product's importance to customers when they prioritize their work

Just eyeballing this thread, it looks like a majority of the posters are AP subscribers. These are, by definition, people who are strongly invested.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm an AP subscriber. Been one since ALMOST THE FIRST ISSUE BECUASE I WAS DUMB AND WANTED TO TRY AND SEE IF THOSE BOOKS ARE WORTH ANY MONEY FIRST (yep, that's me being invested and mad about not being a Charter Subscriber).

I'm not upset. I've seen mountains die and empires fall, and over the last 11 years Paizo has provided me with enough quality entertainiment so that any slips in free products are not an issue.

Besides, running APs before having all 6 books is not the wisest thing to do.


We have dumped WIS on this one... we cannot wait... start date is this Friday! :)

(but we'll do fine without the Player's Guide, and I'm allowing retroactive insertion of campaign trait)

Silver Crusade

Cuup wrote:
My biggest gripe in all this was the radio silence from Paizo.

I don't agree with this.

When something slips the following happens
1) Everybody tries really, really hard to get it out as quickly as possible
2) Time moves on and other things on the schedule get ready to go through the various chokepoints (editorial review, creating the PDF, uploading it, whatever)
3) Paizo has to make decisions about where to allocate resources. Does this Guide take priority over something else?
4) Those decisions to some extent depend on other factors. Does the Guide get completed? Does it pass the editorial review? Does the OTHER product pass ITS Editorial review?

With the best will in the world Paizo just can't predict how all of those factors are going to play out in advance. Tentative schedules probably changed frequently.

Paizo wasn't telling us because they just didn't know.

And giving estimates that they miss is frequently worse than not making an estimate at all.

At the point Adam spoke I have absolutely no doubt that he genuinely believed that the Guide would come out in substantially LESS than 2 weeks. He was VERY careful to not promise us anything because he knew that stuff could still happen.

And, apparently, did :-)

Grand Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:
I'm an AP subscriber. Been one since ALMOST THE FIRST ISSUE BECUASE I WAS DUMB AND WANTED TO TRY AND SEE IF THOSE BOOKS ARE WORTH ANY MONEY FIRST (yep, that's me being invested and mad about not being a Charter Subscriber).

Ha ha! Loser!

-Skeld ;)

Sovereign Court

dot


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pauljathome wrote:
Cuup wrote:
My biggest gripe in all this was the radio silence from Paizo.

I don't agree with this.

When something slips the following happens
1) Everybody tries really, really hard to get it out as quickly as possible
2) Time moves on and other things on the schedule get ready to go through the various chokepoints (editorial review, creating the PDF, uploading it, whatever)
3) Paizo has to make decisions about where to allocate resources. Does this Guide take priority over something else?
4) Those decisions to some extent depend on other factors. Does the Guide get completed? Does it pass the editorial review? Does the OTHER product pass ITS Editorial review?

With the best will in the world Paizo just can't predict how all of those factors are going to play out in advance. Tentative schedules probably changed frequently.

Paizo wasn't telling us because they just didn't know.

And giving estimates that they miss is frequently worse than not making an estimate at all.

At the point Adam spoke I have absolutely no doubt that he genuinely believed that the Guide would come out in substantially LESS than 2 weeks. He was VERY careful to not promise us anything because he knew that stuff could still happen.

And, apparently, did :-)

That's all fine, and like I said, I understand how wonky a publishing schedule can become when an unexpected domino falls. As I said, if they didn't know what the next move was, how long it would take to figure out the next move, etc. (obviously, they didn't), that's OK. My problem was that nobody seemed to be concerned with "hey, it's been over a week since we told everyone that we were delayed. Should we just pop in and let them know we haven't forgotten about this product and we greatly appreciate their patience?" And then when someone finally DID come address this, it was largely to just remind us that the delay wasn't their fault. We can slip into a semantics war, here, but let me just go on record saying that I agree that it probably isn't anyone's fault; sometimes unforseen delays happen. And, from what I've seen on this thread, most people agree with this. Back to my problem, though, James spent most of his energy on this thread addressing the tiny minority that was crying foul to the delay, instead of maybe addressing something productive, like all the other people politely asking for the campaign traits - either posting them or saying that unfortunately, they're not available at this time.


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I think it’s worth remembering that delays like this happen all the time. People who are really stressed about this specific product (or product line) may not be aware that there are plenty of other delays/adjustments/tweaks happening across the site.

Of course we all want to hear about the specific product we’re interested in. I certainly have no gripe with people asking repeatedly. However, if the staff were to monitor and respond to such requests for anything but the most core releases they would be spending a lot of time (there are many queries about product releases, scheduling and delays) to the point where multiple posts of “nothing yet” or “hopefully next Tuesday” would likely end up causing other delays.

Granted I don’t care about this specific productunless it’s not ready by issue six, so it’s easy to be sanguine about it. Nonetheless, the same is true of products I DO care about. I personally find it helpful (for my stress levels) take a “no news is good news” approach. Paizo do generally update things when something is released late (so it’s unlikely to slip off the radar and come out without you noticing, if you’ve been posting requests for it).

They aren’t going to sit on a completed Player Guide for no good reason. Nor are they going to withhold the traits for no good reason. In my view, the fact they haven’t said anything should be interpreted as “it’s not ready yet and we don’t have a preview of the campaign traits available”.

Them actually articulating that is insignificant effort for just one product but not when you consider everything they’ve got going and how much energy it would take to track down all those requests and to answer all of them. They’d likely miss many of them and it also doesn’t really achieve anything to have them “announce” that they’re still not ready to release something.


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Personally, I'm super excited for this Player's Guide, I've never run or played in an intrigue themed campaign and so I'm curious on what they suggest.

That said, I've been around this hobby for over thirty years now and so I appreciate how forthright Paizo is and how minimal their delays are in comparison to other companies, both currently and historically. :-)


Yes, I'm super curious as what's in the Player's Guide now that I'm almost done prepping the first AP book for Friday! 34 hours remain before campaign start... :)


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Delays... don't talk to me about delays...

Anybody here play the L5R CCG during the last two edition releases before AEG sold it? Remember how Emperor Edition, a core, legality-altering set went from a November release to a January release? And then to a February release? Remember how there were tournaments slated for the new legality before those dates?

Remember how it happened again with Ivory Edition?

Remember how, after buying the IP and turning it into an LCG, FFG gave absolutely NOTHING of substance for like, a year, because they believe in more "traditional" customer-company communication?

Yeah. This? This I can wait on.


LOL
Even Roll20 has a changed blurb on their moudule of this, goes live this morning.

Was "Players guide will be included", now it has

"Will include the fully converted War for the Crown Player's Guide soon after it is released by Paizo. This item will be patched to include this."

:)

Tom


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They did say on their twitter in a reply that the guide should be out before the end of this week.

So today or tomorrow I guess.

Silver Crusade

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GayBirdGM wrote:

They did say on their twitter in a reply that the guide should be out before the end of this week.

So today or tomorrow I guess.

Am I the only person seriously peeved that Paizo puts out information seemingly at random in seemingly random places and NOT on their own website?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pauljathome wrote:


Am I the only person seriously peeved that Paizo puts out information seemingly at random in seemingly random places and NOT on their own website?

I agree that it's not quite the most efficient way of putting the information into the hands of the people that need or want it.

I'm betting it comes out tomorrow. Feel free to prove me wrong, Paizo.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I wonder who's responsible for Paizo's Twitter account.

The tweet in question is here, by the way.


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pauljathome wrote:
Am I the only person seriously peeved that Paizo puts out information seemingly at random in seemingly random places and NOT on their own website?

I have to admit to being more and more reminded of a certain other company who designed what Pathfinder is based on when it comes to getting information here lately. :-(


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It's up!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Does anybody wants some BBQ sauce for that crow they're about to eat?


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Gorbacz wrote:
Does anybody wants some BBQ sauce for that crow they're about to eat?

{smacks toothy bag with rolled up newspaper} NO! Tengus are friends, not food.


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The wait is over! Get your red hot Player's Guides.

Doug M.


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YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Couldn't come at a best time! my game starts tomorrow night at 6pm!

:) :) :)


pauljathome wrote:
GayBirdGM wrote:

They did say on their twitter in a reply that the guide should be out before the end of this week.

So today or tomorrow I guess.

Am I the only person seriously peeved that Paizo puts out information seemingly at random in seemingly random places and NOT on their own website?

They aren't the only one doing it, but they could do way worst.


Woohoo, it's here! And it sounds like the character I had in mind works plenty well!


Hurray! Its finally out! It even has stuff I wanted for my noble.


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And now I want to make a character with a Swan animal companion.


I suppose "Patriot" as good a label as any...


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Oddly enough, Paizo's dice machine is prophetic. It said the 23rd, and it was right. Maybe we should use it more often.


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Mudfoot wrote:
Oddly enough, Paizo's dice machine is prophetic. It said the 23rd, and it was right. Maybe we should use it more often.

Came out on the 22nd here.


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Ensign 5th Account wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
Oddly enough, Paizo's dice machine is prophetic. It said the 23rd, and it was right. Maybe we should use it more often.
Came out on the 22nd here.

*shrug* He rolled the dice on the 16th in the US. Adding the results of the dice to the 16th yields the 22nd. (I.e., the dice correctly predicted the elapsed time between the day of the roll and the day of the product's release.)


Never mind your narrow parochialism. I'm talking UTC, the well-deserved, natural and internationally agreed basis for the world's timekeeping.

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