So I recently started playing a campaign as an OATHBOUND PALADIN with the OATH OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL - Essentially I lose Smite (and smite related stuff) and replace it with BARDIC PERFORMANCE.
This is a pretty big change, and essentially makes me a bard with full BAB, amazing saves and full martial weapon/armour proficiencies, but with significantly worse spell-casting and skills.
I've looked around a bit and haven't seen it discussed in guides - or even mentioned much in conversation around here - so I thought I'd start the conversation.
What do you think of the Oath of the People's Council Paladin?
1. Is it good/bad?
2. What do you think works well?
3. What do you think doesn't work well?
4. What unique things can they do that a normal Paladin can't?
5. What unique things can they do that a Bard can't?
Just to get the ball rolling I'll start (and I'm new to this so feel free to refute anything I say here)
1. It's good. Probably not as good as a bard, but I just started so we'll see.
2. Full BAB Full weapons/armour & Divine Grace mean you can tank. If you go down, so do your buffs, with the Paladin defenses you'll never go down, so that stops being a problem. Also, Paladin Auras plus Bardic Performance is a powerful combo.
3. Skill points and spells. For a "support" character you're fairly limited in your support. It's seems important to pick your skills/spells/mercies very carefully. This character wouldn't fill the usual support role.
4. IOMEDAE, god of Paladins. Scroll down to "Divine Fighting Technique". A Paladin can replace her 3rd/9th level mercies with significant boosts to her buffing ability. The 3rd level one takes your full round action, but at this point in the game it's twice as powerful as your Bardic Performance. The 9th level benefit is basically the same but now it doesn't cost you an action and lasts 1 minute (EDIT: I didn't make this clear, these bonuses DO stack with bardic performance, thanks avr for pointing this out).
5. I guess this is where I'm stuck. Aside from Iomedae's Divine Fighting Technique, I'm not sure when you'd take this over a bard (except in my case where we're playing a 5-man all-divine party). If you want a bard with a reach weapon and combat reflexes this will be better at that, and the auras seem to have synergy, but the lack of versatility makes it seem like a downgrade to me.
What are people's thoughts?
Is there a guide that I somehow missed?
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1. It's good. Certainly I think this is something that Paladins should be able to do. It's cool to have a very fighty party support option.
2. It's really really tough for a bard. You're packing Lay on Hands/mercies alongside your performance, and as you've pointed out, Paladin Auras.
3. The Paladin's lack of feats is a little more felt when you don't have smite. Granted, you're still good at smacking things as you have full bab/performance. And yes, it's wierd getting two skill points per level.
4. One unique thing it can do is run VMC cavalier and jump into Battle Herald (and retain mostly full Lay on Hands progression via Order of the Star). This is a really awesome way to play one, both mechanically and flavourfully, as long as you don't mind having barely any feats at all.
5. See above. Bards have to make a lot of sacrifices if they want to prestige. This route does not. Otherwise, you're a bard that can run Shield Other and Lay on Hands.
It looks like a front line character with a sideline in bard rather than a support character per se to me. Trying to play it as a bard might be a mistake, and probably the overlap without synergy between Iomedae's DFT and bardic performance would have me take the one or the other rather than both. Edit: no wait, that's a sacred bonus. Stacks beautifully with a competence bonus. Go for it.
What you get to support others that a bard doesn't is obviously lay on hands and mercies. If you want to support others taking feats and magic items which focus on that might help (e.g. greater mercy, word of healing, merciful vambraces).
For a "support" character you're fairly limited in your support. It's seems important to pick your skills/spells/mercies very carefully. This character wouldn't fill the usual support role.
There's no reason to have all support stuff on on character. Indeed, it's generally better to spread it out, as that not only limits the risk of the supporter being taken out, but it's also generally a better yield-to-investment ratio.
For instance, there's no reason why the knowledge skills and the "face" skills need to be on one character.
So I had a thought: What do people think of the OotPC as a base for an Oradin?
I know the standard is Hospitaler for those bonus channels (which turn into bonus LoH), but this buff seems even better to me ... or do you think the progression of the buffs would be too slow?
I also had a thought, Paladins have some amazing items like BRACERS OF THE MERCIFUL KNIGHT to boost their class abilities, is there anything similar for a bard (something to boost bardic performance)? I haven't really played a bard, so I'm not super familiar with them.
Sorry I haven't really had a chance to actually reply to people here, so I'll give it a go now.
1. It's good.
2. It's really really tough for a bard.
3. The Paladin's lack of feats...two skill points per level.
4. One unique thing it can do is run VMC cavalier and jump into Battle Herald.
5. Prestige <class>. <Also> you're a bard that can run Shield Other and Lay on Hands.
Yeah I like the idea of a tough bard. Handing out those buffs makes the whole party better, which makes you a target, but you're a tough target. Good way to think of it.
I'll check out Battle Herald, it sounds thematically like my thing for this character, so it might end up being my plan (not sure if we can VMC this campaign).Trying to play it as a bard might be a mistake. Iomedae's DFT Stacks beautifully with a competence bonus. Go for it.
Lay on hands and mercies. Feats and magic items which might help (greater mercy, word of healing, merciful vambraces).
Iomedae's DFT is amazing, when I found that it blew my mind (I'm playing a full divine party who are all followers of Iomedae, so that was just super lucky).
Merciufl Vambraces are a great find.There's no reason to have all support stuff on on character.
What I was trying to say there was that this archetype might not appeal to the kind of people who want to play this type of character as much as a regular bard would. I do get with what you're saying though, and it's good advice. I think the idea of a "Tanky Bard" is a good way of thinking about this archetype (SUPER tanky).
Does anyone have any other thoughts? Are there any nice bard items that I should pick up?
Necro'ing for.. reasons..
5. Bards have to make a lot of sacrifices if they want to prestige. This route does not. Otherwise, you're a bard that can run Shield Other and Lay on Hands.
This is a great point - this would be a better entry into Pathfinder Chronicler than bard - loss of spellcasting progression is much less painful. Meanwhile boosts to your Charisma continue to help saves and lay on hands.
Not perfect by any means, but better I think.
<Pathfinder Chronicler>
Man I've always thought the Pathfinder Chronicler was a pretty underwhelming prestige class, but going this route makes it look pretty appealing. Thank you Majuba, that's an excelent find!
Just as an update: Our original party was 3 Paladins (Including me as an OotPC), a Cleric and a Slayer. The Cleric quit, so I remade my Paladin as an Evangelist Cleric. Still happy to hear anyone's thoughts on the OotPC-Paladin, but I won't be able to use most of your advice until a later campaign (some of it will still translate).
If anyone has any other ideas I'm interested in what other multiclass/prestige-class options people can think of.
Otherwise thanks people =)
It's also a good alternative to the Exemplar Brawler for a purely martial Battle Herald, by the looks of it.
No flurry, sure, but good stuff in its place, and a better reprenstation. I like it.
Improvements to inspire courage? Grab a Dervish Sikke to increase your inspire courage bonus by +1. Banner of Ancient Kings adds 4 to your class level to determine the bonus of your inspire courage, +4 initiative, can be stacked with Flagbearer, and requires 2 hands.
There's also Banner of the Scarlet Rose which requires only 1 hand, gives a +2 shield bonus, and adds a flat +1 improvement to your inspire courage. But it doesn't stack with the Dervish Sikke.
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Depending on your GMs take on paladin deities, you could play a Paladin of Desna and take her Divine Fighting Style with a starknife and be even more Charisma-focused.
Hero's Hauberk armor would net you a luck bonus to skill and ability checks while performing and reduce penalties, which could be useful for stuff like Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting. Throw on Harmonizing to gain a pseudo-Lingering Performance and a boost to Perform. Poet's Cloak would let you have the option of a 4th level Raging Song.
Flagbearer+Banner of the Ancient Kings has been mentioned.
If you did go something like VMC Cavalier, dropping your paladin spellcasting for Tempered Champion would net you some bonus combat feats, which would be even more worthwhile if you planned on going into Battle Herald where you wouldn't have spellcasting scaling anyways.
Divine Defender would let you boost allied defenses. Warrior of the Holy Light would also give you more aura bonuses, though of a type largely redundant with bardic performance.
An odd choice, and one that painfully costs Divine Grace, is Empyreal Knight, which gives you the ability to summon celestial creatures and have a flying mount.
I disagree that this is good if you're going for mechanics - if flavor, then consider my opinion as naught. Bardic Performance is top-notch, but the first reasons to be a Paladin are Smite Evil and Aura of Justice, because they are the best buffs in the game hands-down, and they are essentially what makes a Paladin a Paladin, and the second reason to go Paladin is LoH/Mercies.
With your build, Auras/BP are great and it's super that they stack, but you need to be within 10 ft for that, so it's really only going to affect your 2nd/3rd/4th melee class if you have them, considering that you are also a melee character.
Basically here's how I get down, and again, this is my own personal opinion based on mechanics, if you're going to Bard, then Bard, if you're going to Paladin, then Paladin. Personally, I view each of these classes to be absolutely instrumental to a group in their own forms, and I truly believe that amalgamating them with positives/negatives of the other class will net you a bastard class, essentially a loss in actual effectivity in either roll you wish to perform.
Obviously, I'm a naysayer on this, mechanically-speaking ONLY. BUT, if this is a flavor thing of the character that you want to play, then please forgive my previous comments. I view flavor > mechanics. So if this is the character you wish to play, then so be it, and damn them all if they say otherwise. Besides, I'd rather have this character as a fun-flavor character, if this character's true intention is indeed a flavor character, than any min-maxed Bard or Paladin in my group any day. Otherwise, if you're going for a predefined mechanical role and trying to fluff it up with this archetype/order, I'd rather have the Bard OR the Paladin in their truest forms.
This is my own two cents, so take it as that much.
Improvements to inspire courage? Grab a Dervish Sikke to increase your inspire courage bonus by +1. Banner of Ancient Kings adds 4 to your class level to determine the bonus of your inspire courage, +4 initiative, can be stacked with Flagbearer, and requires 2 hands.
There's also Banner of the Scarlet Rose which requires only 1 hand, gives a +2 shield bonus, and adds a flat +1 improvement to your inspire courage. But it doesn't stack with the Dervish Sikke.
Actually they would most likely stack.
the banner states " This benefit does not apply to spells that grant competence bonuses, nor does it stack with other item effects that increase competence bonuses."
and the sikke states " In addition, the bonuses granted by a bard’s inspire courage and inspire competence class features are increased by 1"
the sikke doesn't directly enhance the competence bonus so by RAW they would stack, as the banner increases the competence bonus by 1 and the sikke increases bonus granted by bardic performance. It is a subtle difference but an important one.
<Dervish Sikke>
Wow, never heard of the Dervish Sikke, thanks!
<Hero's Hauberk ... Poet's Cloak ... Archetypes>
Hero's Hauberk is amazing, Poet's Cloak is super fun if not as useful (gives you an alternative performance, but it won't stack). I think your advice on archetypes and prestige classes is good.