My current build is Oozemorph 4 (2 Morphic Weapons) and Brawler 2, with Feral combat training....
I'm having a hard time figuring out how the new "Shifters Fury" ability would interact(or if it even would) with Brawlers Flurry and Feral combat ?
Is it even worth considering 2 more levels of Oozemorph to get Shifters Fury ?
If i'm understanding Shifters Fury correctly, it's a distinct step down from TWF...
Say I have two morphic weapons at 6th level....I can attack +6/+6
With TWF I can attack +4/+4/+4
If I'm reading Shifters Fury correctly....my attack would be +6/+1
If I'm reading Shifters Fury correctly....my attack would be +6/+1
+6/+1/+1[1/2 str].
"all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks".
If I'm reading Shifters Fury correctly....my attack would be +6/+1+6/+1/+1[1/2 str].
"all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks".
So I'm better off with TWF and Feral Combat....
So I'm better off with TWF and Feral Combat....If I'm reading Shifters Fury correctly....my attack would be +6/+1+6/+1/+1[1/2 str].
"all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks".
Not really. You need Feral Combat and a level of monk with flurry. Feral combat, feat and FAQ, refers to flurry and the ability to use a natural weapon IN a flurry. At no point does it make your weapon a manufactured weapon. It just adds 'monk' to the natural weapon, leaving it unchanged for everything else. Nowhere does it allow natural weapons to be used in TWF.
I'm using Brawlers flurry, and Feral combat...which allows me to use my natural weapons with flurry.
I'm using Brawlers flurry, and Feral combat...which allows me to use my natural weapons with flurry.
Ok, so not better than TWF but better than a 2 level dip for brawler's flurry and taking a feat...? lets see:
shifters flurry with multiattack: +6/+1/+4brawlers flurry with feral: +4/+4/-1
I'm using Brawlers flurry, and Feral combat...which allows me to use my natural weapons with flurry.Ok, so not better than TWF but better than a 2 level dip for brawler's flurry and taking a feat...? lets see:
shifters flurry with multiattack: +6/+1/+4
brawlers flurry with feral: +4/+4/-1
....not sure that would make sense either....I would need one more natural attack to qualify for multi-attack, and if I took the levels to get the third morphic weapon they would be at full BA anyway, so I wouldn't need multi-attack in the first place right ?
....not sure that would make sense either....I would need one more natural attack to qualify for multi-attack, and if I took the levels to get the third morphic weapon they would be at full BA anyway, so I wouldn't need multi-attack in the first place right ?I'm using Brawlers flurry, and Feral combat...which allows me to use my natural weapons with flurry.Ok, so not better than TWF but better than a 2 level dip for brawler's flurry and taking a feat...? lets see:
shifters flurry with multiattack: +6/+1/+4
brawlers flurry with feral: +4/+4/-1
Even taking multiattack away, you're looking at fairly equivalent numbers:
+6/+1/+1 vs +4/+4/-1 [one has better first and third attack while the second has a better second one]. The main difference is that the second way is out a feat...Secondly, we're looking at a oozemorph 4/brawler 2 so I'm unsure why we'd be looking at a 4th level shifter to compare instead of a 6th level one. For the same 6 levels of investment, you have 3 attacks.
Thirdly, the FAQ states "all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks" when using shifters flurry, so multiattack is VERY important if you're using it.
So looking at 6th level oozemorph, the attacks are +6/+1/+4/+4 with multiattack [assuming retrain to get multittack at 6th] using shifters flurry or +6/+6/+6 without. Really, adding brawlers flurry only lowers your numbers and/or attacks.
Even taking multiattack away, you're looking at fairly equivalent numbers:
+6/+1/+1 vs +4/+4/-1 [one has better first and third attack while the second has a better second one]. The main difference is that the second way is out a feat...Secondly, we're looking at a oozemorph 4/brawler 2 so I'm unsure why we'd be looking at a 4th level shifter to compare instead of a 6th level one. For the same 6 levels of investment, you have 3 attacks.
Correct, I'm trying to determine which is the bigger bang for my buck...a 4th level oozemorph (2 morphic weapons) with Brawlers flurry and Feral Combat Training.(total 6th level)
Or a 6th level oozemorph (3 morphic weapons) with Shifters Fury and Multi-attack. (6th level characters, with same BA, in both cases).
Thirdly, the FAQ states "all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks" when using shifters flurry, so multiattack is VERY important if you're using it.
You meant Shifters Fury there correct ?
But I could only qualify for multi-attack with the 6th level oozemorph. The 4 level build doesn't qualify.So looking at 6th level oozemorph, the attacks are +6/+1/+4/+4 with multiattack [assuming retrain to get multittack at 6th] using shifters flurry or +6/+6/+6 without. Really, adding brawlers flurry only lowers your numbers and/or attacks.
You mean "Shifters Fury" again correct ?
By my reading (and correct me if I'm wrong) but if I keep advancing in brawler, I may never have more than the two morphic weapons, but with the scaling flurry....I end up with much better attack bonuses and more hits, than I would with Shifters Fury and Multi-attack.....the number of hit's from Shifters Furry make keep pace, but it looks like the extra attacks come later....and the attack bonuses fall behind using Brawlers Flurry.....or am I still horribly missing something....
Penalties with TWF are only -2 on Morphic weapons, +1 additional attack.
Penalties with Shifters Furry are -5, +1 additional attack.....Multi-attack reduces the penalties to -2 right ?
Also....does oozemorph even qualify for Multi-attack ?
It only has one Natural Weapon (Morphic weapon) ?
I have always read Multi-attack as needing three different natural Weapons (ex: Claw, Bite, gore)
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Multiattack:
Mindspin Ram: Gore, hoof, hoof + multiattack
Witchwyrd 4 slams + multiattack
Skum 2 claw, bite + multiattack
Lizard Scion, lizardfolk, Lizardfolk Berserker, Lizardfolk Stalker, Lizardfolk Vanguard 2 claws, bite + multiattack
Iron Rhinoceros gore, 2 chains + multiattack
Sahuagin (Four-Armed Mutant) 4 claws, bite + multiattack
several of those are out of a Bestiary. It's 3 natural weapons not 3 natural weapon types/forms.
"bigger bang for my buck": IMO it's oozemorph 6 with multiattack.
"Shifters Fury?": Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get that right. Extra attacks makes my brain think flurry.
Start
oozemorph 6th +6/+1/+4/+4 [1 hit higher and a extra hit with higher to hit]
oozemorph 4th/brawler 2nd +6/+1/+1
advancing in brawler 16th/oozemorph 4th
+18/+13/+08/+03, +18/+13/+08
advancing in oozemorph 20th
+20/+15/+10/+05, +18/+18/+18 [1 the same to hit, 6 better]
Now the ONLY way the brawler route is better is if you can expect every attack to hit as the secondary attacks get 1/2 damage: they are 'better' IMO as the second at +5 to hit better and the third +10.
If you want to go through a level by level analysis feel free, but IMO, you're ahead sticking with oozemorph at 6th and 20th.
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My current build is Oozemorph 4 (2 Morphic Weapons) and Brawler 2, with Feral combat training....
I'm having a hard time figuring out how the new "Shifters Fury" ability would interact(or if it even would) with Brawlers Flurry and Feral combat ?
Is it even worth considering 2 more levels of Oozemorph to get Shifters Fury ?
From what I gather, they could work, with all the I's dotted and T's crossed.
If a Shifter at 6th level has Two-Weapon Fighting (or Brawler's Flurry), he gets:
Two Main Hand manufactured attacks at full Strength.
One off hand manufactured attack at half Strength.
Two Shifter's Fury attacks at half Strength.
Other eligible Natural Weapons also at half Strength.
With an 18 Strength, Light Weapons, and Multiattack, the attack routine comes to +8/+3, +8, +8/+3, and +8, respectively.
Against super low A.C. opponents, this will do more damage than most any other party member in the group. Against enemies with considerable DR or high AC, it's just not effective, and these benefits are more likely to be an issue in the higher levels.
But keep in mind that Shifter's Fury wasn't made to superpower their already potent combat forms, but to make less powerful combat forms more capable in the higher levels.
Multiattack:
Mindspin Ram: Gore, hoof, hoof + multiattack
Witchwyrd 4 slams + multiattack
Skum 2 claw, bite + multiattack
Lizard Scion, lizardfolk, Lizardfolk Berserker, Lizardfolk Stalker, Lizardfolk Vanguard 2 claws, bite + multiattack
Iron Rhinoceros gore, 2 chains + multiattack
Sahuagin (Four-Armed Mutant) 4 claws, bite + multiattack
several of those are out of a Bestiary. It's 3 natural weapons not 3 natural weapon types/forms."bigger bang for my buck": IMO it's oozemorph 6 with multiattack.
"Shifters Fury?": Yeah, I don't think I'll ever get that right. Extra attacks makes my brain think flurry.
Start
oozemorph 6th +6/+1/+4/+4 [1 hit higher and a extra hit with higher to hit]
oozemorph 4th/brawler 2nd +6/+1/+1advancing in brawler 16th/oozemorph 4th
+18/+13/+08/+03, +18/+13/+08
advancing in oozemorph 20th
+20/+15/+10/+05, +18/+18/+18 [1 the same to hit, 6 better]Now the ONLY way the brawler route is better is if you can expect every attack to hit as the secondary attacks get 1/2 damage: they are 'better' IMO as the second at +5 to hit better and the third +10.
If you want to go through a level by level analysis feel free, but IMO, you're ahead sticking with oozemorph at 6th and 20th.
I can't imagine playing an Oozemorph all the way through level 20...just not enough versatility to hold my interest....
But this has very much made me re-think my build...
My main reason for going Brawler was Feral Combat.....
I may just go Oozemorph 6...Invulnerable Rager/Urban/Barbarian the rest of the way :P
My current build is Oozemorph 4 (2 Morphic Weapons) and Brawler 2, with Feral combat training....
I'm having a hard time figuring out how the new "Shifters Fury" ability would interact(or if it even would) with Brawlers Flurry and Feral combat ?
Is it even worth considering 2 more levels of Oozemorph to get Shifters Fury ?
From what I gather, they could work, with all the I's dotted and T's crossed.
If a Shifter at 6th level has Two-Weapon Fighting (or Brawler's Flurry), he gets:
Two Main Hand manufactured attacks at full Strength.
One off hand manufactured attack at half Strength.
Two Shifter's Fury attacks at half Strength.
Other eligible Natural Weapons also at half Strength.With an 18 Strength, Light Weapons, and Multiattack, the attack routine comes to +8/+3, +8, +8/+3, and +8, respectively.
Against super low A.C. opponents, this will do more damage than most any other party member in the group. Against enemies with considerable DR or high AC, it's just not effective, and these benefits are more likely to be an issue in the higher levels.
But keep in mind that Shifter's Fury wasn't made to superpower their already potent combat forms, but to make less powerful combat forms more capable in the higher levels.
......digesting.......
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Two Weapon Fighting says you make attacks with one main hand and one off hand weapon.
Natural Weapons don't count as either in regards to two-weapon fighting, and can be used in conjunction with both weapons, following the secondary natural attack rules.
Shifter's Fury says the ability allows "gaining a [second] iterative attack [at a -5 penalty] as if it was a manufactured weapon." This means it's still a natural weapon for all other purposes, meaning it stacks like other Natural Weapons would.
**EDIT** Typing on a phone isn't very fun or accurate for me and my Freddy Flintstone fingers...
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But this has very much made me re-think my build...
My main reason for going Brawler was Feral Combat.....I may just go Oozemorph 6...Invulnerable Rager/Urban/Barbarian the rest of the way :P
IMO the thing that pushed straight oozemorph is sifter's fury allowing your other natural attacks, once you get 3+ attacks multiattack means those are only -2 full BAB. It makes them quite accurate and means that even with power attack/piranha strike every attack has a good chance to hit.
I do agree with Darksol that you have to watch out for DR and/or high armor: I'd prioritize an amulet a mighty fists and focus JUST on magic pluses to buff to hits and bypassing as many DR's as possible.