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Let me start with kindly asking that all comments, arguments etc. regarding the Cavalier being a mount centric class be left at the door. I realize there is a focus on having a mount but there are many aspects of the class that I really like that a class like the Fighter for example just doesn't have. It may help to state that I'm going for a "white knight" type of character and don't have much interest in playing a Paladin.
With that said I've been looking over Ultimate Combat and the APG to try and work out a good setup for a Cavalier with less focus on being mounted and something more like a knight errant. A travelling force for good, who is just and chivalrous without being bound by the same sort of strictness as a Paladin and of course minus the focus on being mounted.
I will say that I'm not as familiar with everything as I would like and thus I sort of have a feeling that I may be underestimating the Cavaliers ability while not mounted in the first place. If this is the case please feel free to school me :P
From the ones I have seen in play, you do not have to be mounted to be effective. I think one Archetype in UC takes away the mount, another I think may change it t you gain it late.
Another point, you do not have to be mounted to charge :)
The Musketeer abandons the mount for firearms-related stuff. Have gun, will travel ;)
The Emissary gives up the various tactical abilities to be more mobile and better at fighting on foot.
The Honor Guard gives up the charge-related things to be a bodyguard.
The Beast Rider gives up the standard mount for the ability to ride exotic creatures. Hello, Mr. Shining-knight-on-a-T-rex.
The Gendarme gives up the tactical stuff to be even more of a mounted combat beast.
The Luring Cavalier focuses on ranged combat and baiting enemies into traps and such.
The Standard Bearer gets early Banner and better Banner abilities in exchange for later mount acquisition and loss of some charge stuff.
Strategist gives up Banner stuff for focusing on the Tactician ability.
That's a basic summary of the UC Cavalier archetypes.
Note you could reflavor a samurai. There's also the 'Ronin' order which can be taken by cavaliers and makes them literally a knight-errant.
Take one level of standard bearer / strategist, then the rest in levels of Tactician fighter.
Much more versatile and you only lose the order.
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Take one level of standard bearer / strategist, then the rest in levels of Tactician fighter.
Much more versatile and you only lose the order.
Part of the reason I am set on playing a Cavalier is the order, I really like the flavor it gives and I feel like I could have a lot of fun with it RP wise.
Thanks for the replies so far, the musketeer seems like it could be fun. Would give me some ranged options though I'm kind of on the fence about firearms.
The Ronin order is a cool idea though I do kind of have my heart set on the Order of the Blue Rose as it is very in line with the sort of character I would like to play.
As for the Emissary archetype, I had considered it but in the end did not want to lose my banner.
I do admit I'm probably being a bit picky, mostly because I had an idea of the sort of character I wanted to play already in mind.
:edit: Just wanted to add that I was looking over the firearms sections of Ultimate Combat and discovered the Axe Musket. I do believe I may have found my answer, particularly due to it being a double weapon so I could use it as a sidearm and use it as a musket on rare occasions. However I am unsure if I would be able to choose this option as my firearm if I were to take the musketeer archetype, does anyone know if there are any restrictions stated anywhere regarding this?
It would certainly give me a very interesting character to RP.
Also, upon closer inspection of the standard bearer archetype it is very appealing to me. I believe this or musketeer with the axe musket are going to be what I end up choosing from.
There's nothing that says you can't play a fighter who belongs to an order. If you're willing to forsake the actual mechanical benefits and focus on the roleplaying, a straight fighter would certainly be viable.
Or use your mount as a glorified animal companion. You don't need to use a horse, if you get GM permission.
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Or use your mount as a glorified animal companion. You don't need to use a horse, if you get GM permission.
I had been looking things over and considered this as well, especially with the Beast Rider archetype. The thought of riding around on a lion and fighting beside it is pretty awesome, if not a little comical but I'm sure with the right backstory I could make it work.
I wouldn't go Beast Rider. If you ever multi class, you can take a feat to set the mounts level off of your character level. You can't do that if you go beast rider. If you Do ask for a nonstandard mount, don't ask for a lion if your GM knows anything about optimization. Axe Beaks are fun, as are wolves.
Is this a Golarion game?
What about the blue rose order do you like? There's a trait that gets rid of the penalty for using non-lethal hits with slashing weapons.
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I wouldn't go Beast Rider. If you ever multi class, you can take a feat to set the mounts level off of your character level. You can't do that if you go beast rider. If you Do ask for a nonstandard mount, don't ask for a lion if your GM knows anything about optimization. Axe Beaks are fun, as are wolves.
Is this a Golarion game?
What about the blue rose order do you like? There's a trait that gets rid of the penalty for using non-lethal hits with slashing weapons.
Not sure what exactly the setting will be for the game, very early planning stages at the moment as I live in a pretty rural area so it generally takes longer for things to get organized.
Yea I'm definitely going with the order of the blue rose, not only is the fluff appealing I really like the skills.
The Musketeer abandons the mount for firearms-related stuff. Have gun, will travel ;)
Except in UC the Musketeer keeps Cavalier's Charge, but does not gain a mount. This to me seems like a wasted class feature, there hopefully has been or will be an errata that replaces this under the Musketeer archetype.
A calavier minus his mount can still be reasonably effective, should you follow the sacred melee mantra.
Follow this and you're probably pretty safe. Follow this and the bard and cleric can hold their own in combat, and you have the benefit of full BAB! While you probably wont stack up to the fighter's weapon specialisation and weapon training in the long run, you'll be able to dole out a moderate amount of hurt. (Keep in mind that TWF might stack well with your challenge ability if you want to go sword and board, though.)
A calavier gets a couple of free feats, an amazing boost to his damage a few times a day, and (eventually) a workable tactician ability (something the UC fighter variant lacks). Take a lance. This will give you a decent reach weapon whilst unmounted, and when you do choose to mount up for that glorious charge at the enemy, power attack and a lance make you a force to be reckoned with. Your main weapon has a great deal more flexibility.
Now, I'd also reccomend having a look at the Holy Tactician paladin from UC. It's all kinds of amazing, though it does lose out on the order and it's mount. (More than worth it, though.)
If you're willing to be a corruptable soldier for good, take a Paladin. Not every one of them has a stick wedged somewhere unfortunate.
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Well that depends on what kind of combat style you want to do with your cavalier. Do you want to hurt people, control people, or support people? The cavalier cna do those three very well.
The thing about mounted combat is you need a total of three feats to as a requirement so as long as you get them eventually you're pretty much done. That being said there are archetypes that do away with the mount or strip out enough of the mount abilities that having one is not required.
The thing to keep in mind about cavaliers is that you don't have to ever have a mount. None of your abilites require you to be mounted on your mount. You can be mounted on a pahntom steed, a cohorted creature, anything that takes your fancy. The mount is only tacked on to the class as a necessity to go along with the other mounted abilities. You can simply not have one. Or you can go beastrider and use your lion as a pal of yours but you don't have to ride him unless necessary.
As for Order I would go Lion. It's a safe option with no real bad abilities and edicts that are classic knighthood. You swear to a sovereign, you serve the sovereign, nothing more, nothing less.
I have a few "mountless" builds here's the one that I consider "Classic" two handed.
1 Power Attack
1 Paired Opportunist
3 Iron Will
5 Furious Focus
6 Lunge
7 Step Up
9 Outflank
9
11 Following Step
12 Step Up and Strike
Up to twelth is a good stop as any as by then im sure you'll figure out where to go. It's pretty straight forward and easy. If you want to talk about support I'd go dragon and get the houndmaster or strategist archetype.
1 Combat Expertise
1 Combat Reflexes
1 Paired Opportunists
3 Improved Trip
5 Power Attack
6 Swift Aid
7 Greater Trip
9 Felling Smash
9 Outflank
11 Practiced Tactician
12 Coordinated Charge (if Strategist)or Iron Will
Here you basically fight dirty and use swift aid to open people up to a savage beating. Against a challeneged target that you use the aid another action to provide really good attack bonuses.
These aren't the msot optimal builds yet but they do demonstrate an unmounted cavalier can function without the feat chain.
Centaur! :p
Seriously though. Good question. I'd be interested in unmounted knights (cavaliers) myself. :)
For me, If i could build a new cavalier..
Strategist. Order is Order of the Cockatrice. I'd eventually take one level of bard to get inspire courage, and then follow up with War Herald.
My last few levels or so would be low Templar or more cavalier. This kind of build completely focuses on the strategic portion of the cavalier, giving up the mounted portion.