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We seem to have a bit of a split in the community on dervish dance
So every magus joins up with the church of saranrae (their doors are always open. In no small part because they keep redeeming thieves who subsequently steal the doors)
Then slashing grace comes out. Magi skip the dance lessons and pick that up instead. Then the faq closed that off
Slashing Grace does not allow most shields, but bucklers work because they don’t occupy the hand. Flurry of blows, brawler’s flurry, two-weapon fighting, and spell combat all don’t work with Slashing Grace. Attacking with natural weapons beyond the weapon you chose for Slashing Grace also does not work. Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon. Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”
No problem. PFS gave everyone with slashing grace a much needed free rebuild. Everyone back in the church of saranrae right....?
Well, maybe not. People seem split on whether dervish dance should work with spell combat now, and spell combat is kind of a big deal to magi. Unlike slashing grace if you took dervish dance to get your magusflurry on you're stuck with it.
Why it should work: Dervish dance shuts off if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand. Magus flurry (the interaction of spell combat and spellstrike) has a spell in your other hand, not a weapon or shield. It's not only not a weapon , its not carried, the other hand is just being used to cast a spell which your sword arm uses.
Magusflurry won't work with slashing grace because your other hand is "otherwise occupied" with casting a spell not because it's a weapon.
Why it shouldn't work The entire point of dervish dance is the same as slashing grace: to give fencing, a historically important fighting style, some unique advantage in a world of two handed weapons, monk flurry magus flurry and two handed fighting. There's no point in writing an faq specifically to stop magi from using it with spell combat but allowing it to work with it's good twin dervish dance. Using your other hand to cast a spell or two weapon fight violates the intent of keeping a weapon or shield out of your other hand, which is to keep you from two weapon fighting.
Full disclosure, i do not think that it should work. I tend to be more intent based in my rules readings than some and find that technicalities rarely work out the way people pointing them out hope. If people had dervish dance pre errata i realize they're stuck with it and had no reason to think it shouldn't work but post errata that should have been a really big warning sign.
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As I have been so often reminded, each FAQ question must be read in a vacuum and cannot be applied to other rules issues.
Normally I'd tend to agree with you, and say that precedence says they should work the same.
But until someone clarifies it, I don't think a PFS GM should be extrapolating FAQ answers that don't exist.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Southwest
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The advent of Two-Weapon Grace makes me pretty sure Dervish Dance doesn't work the way people want it to. There is no way 1 feat = 2 feats that were created AFTER the first.
In addition, Two-Weapon Grace counts as Double Slice for the purposes of qualifying for the Two-Weapon Rend feat.
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The advent of Two-Weapon Grace makes me pretty sure Dervish Dance doesn't work the way people want it to. There is no way 1 feat = 2 feats that were created AFTER the first.
Until that's actually clarified, or its clarified that casting a spell is considered "holding a weapon", then we don't get to make that decision. Especially since Dervish Dance has been interpreted working a certain way for years. Once the developers FAQ it, then we can have that discussion.
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I've never allowed it to work. Just because it's popular in Guides doesn't mean it's correct.
The Slashing Grace FAQ really solidified it for me.
FAQs are not meant to be read in a vacuum. Nothing in Pathfinder is.
But even with that aside, Spell Combat being treated like Two-weapon Fighting nixes Dervish Dance, since you are carrying wielding a weapon in your off-hand.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Southwest
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As someone who is thinking about rolling up a magus, without dervish dance, a dexterity-based magus is impossible, right?
I'm lost as to why people think this... Agile and Weapon Finesse are real things that exist.
As someone who plays a class much more feat starved than the Magus, I'm always amazed that it has become a Dervish Dance or bust class. It is a very powerful class as STR based and with a small nuance of determination it is a very powerful class as DEX based.
So you go a few levels without adding DEX to damage until you pay for Agile, boo-hoo, you get a free attack at level 2. You should be able to swing Agile by level 5 when everyone else gets their extra attack. AND GOOD LORD don't get me started on shocking grasp.
I think many of us roll our eyes at this because of all classes, the Magus and the Gunslinger are the most powerful and those players tend to be the most cheesy and vocal about being denied their cheese.
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People seem split on whether dervish dance should work with spell combat now
Are you asking whether is should work (for reasons of game balance, etc) or whether it does work by RAW?
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The rules are very clear on whether it works. Whether you think it should work is another matter, but RAW it works. It says WEAPON or SHIELD. It's extremely specific in saying that's all it cares about.
I absolutely agree that if Slashing/Piercing Grace don't work that it's a bit silly that this does, but that's how it was written and we have no Campaign Clarifications stating otherwise. Spellcasting is not holding a WEAPON or SHIELD in your offhand.
You can even carry some rope or your favorite potion in your other hand while using Dervish Dance since it only cares about weapons or shields which the Grace feats don't allow. It just cares about different things than Slashing/Piercing Grace.
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nothing has changed for dervishes, it's working now like it always has. Magus don't carry weapons or shields in off hands since that would also stop their spellcombat and that's all that dervish needs to work.
And we've been told by DEVs that FAQs are about their items only, if it's supposed to be broad it'll say it's broad. The slashing grace FAQs don't touch or mention dervish dance, nor say that they are general rules for more than slashing grace.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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As someone who is thinking about rolling up a magus, without dervish dance, a dexterity-based magus is impossible, right?I'm lost as to why people think this... Agile and Weapon Finesse are real things that exist.
As someone who plays a class much more feat starved than the Magus, I'm always amazed that it has become a Dervish Dance or bust class. It is a very powerful class as STR based and with a small nuance of determination it is a very powerful class as DEX based.
So you go a few levels without adding DEX to damage until you pay for Agile, boo-hoo, you get a free attack at level 2. You should be able to swing Agile by level 5 when everyone else gets their extra attack. AND GOOD LORD don't get me started on shocking grasp.
I think many of us roll our eyes at this because of all classes, the Magus and the Gunslinger are the most powerful and those players tend to be the most cheesy and vocal about being denied their cheese.
The real issue at hand here are Dex-based Bladebound Magi who never hand the option of Agile and no longer have the option of any of the Grace feats.
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People seem split on whether dervish dance should work with spell combat nowAre you asking whether is should work (for reasons of game balance, etc) or whether it does work by RAW?
The rules are very clear on whether it works. Whether you think it should work is another matter, but RAW it works. It says WEAPON or SHIELD. It's extremely specific in saying that's all it cares about.
The answer is not merely raw/not raw its a matter of where you set an semi arbitrary persnicket meter when reading the many various rules that could impact the decision.
Weapon or shield in your off hand if you set the persnicket meter high it works because the spell isn't a weapon or shield, but
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. (... and i meant to have this line in the opening post. kinda important)
if your persnicket meter is set that high you what you're doing is explicitly called out as two weapon fighting and that spell works like a weapon, so dervish dance should shut off.
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But even with that aside, Spell Combat being treated like Two-weapon Fighting nixes Dervish Dance, since you areCan you show where it ever says you're wielding a spell?carryingwielding a weapon in your off-hand.
Even if it shows you are wielding a spell, can you show how that should translate to carrying a weapon?
Wield != Carry
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Disagree. Much like TWFing.
If we go with your interpretation can I take weapon focus [spells] since I can wield spells as a weapon? What about weapon specialization [spells]? That interpretation where you're wielding the spell as an actual weapon rather than it's simply clarifying that it's like the off-hand for penalties creates wayyy more problems.
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But even with that aside, Spell Combat being treated like Two-weapon Fighting nixes Dervish Dance, since you areCan you show where it ever says you're wielding a spell?carryingwielding a weapon in your off-hand.Even if it shows you are wielding a spell, can you show how that should translate to carrying a weapon?
Wield != Carry
Carry is imprecise and poor wording, and we know this to be true. Dervish Dance was printed not under Pathfinder, but D&D.
We must take that into account when interpreting its meaning.
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Disagree. Much like TWFing.
If we go with your interpretation can I take weapon focus [spells] since I can wield spells as a weapon? What about weapon specialization [spells]? That interpretation where you're wielding the spell as an actual weapon rather than it's simply clarifying that it's like the off-hand for penalties creates wayyy more problems.
Weapon Focus (weapons) isn't valid, but you can indeed choose Weapon Focus (ray).
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I genuinely wish the PFS board had a Campaign Clarifications button instead of an FAQ button so we had a better chance of getting this cleared up.
Until today I have literally never, and I truly mean never, heard of someone denying magus Dervish Dance.
Weapon Focus (weapons) isn't valid, but you can indeed choose Weapon Focus (ray).
You're right, that was too broad. Weapon Focus (Shocking Grasp) or Weapon Focus (Touch Attacks) then.
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But even with that aside, Spell Combat being treated like Two-weapon Fighting nixes Dervish Dance, since you areCan you show where it ever says you're wielding a spell?carryingwielding a weapon in your off-hand.Even if it shows you are wielding a spell, can you show how that should translate to carrying a weapon?
Wield != Carry
Carry is imprecise and poor wording, and we know this to be true. Dervish Dance was printed not under Pathfinder, but D&D.
We must take that into account when interpreting its meaning.
Where does it say this?
Carry is clear to mean hold in hand. Wield is very unclear and sometimes maybe means hold in hand for pathfinder.I would NEVER assume that carry was supposed to translate to wield, that's working the wrong way, carry is one possible meaning for wield.
So I'm going to need some support for "Carry is imprecise and poor wording" to "know this to be true" for pathfinder.
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Disagree. Much like TWFing.
You can take weapon focus in some spells (rays are specifically called out)
Even if you don't agree that it shouldn't work, surely you can see where a dm can legitimately question it.
the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast
its therefore and offhand weapon in your off hand
So dervish dance shuts off.
Arguing that that's not legitimate (not THE legitimate conclusion, but A legitimate conclusion) requires a technical definition of carry which the game doesn't have. Wield doesn't really have one either but thats abother 5 threads...
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What BNW is asking is whether a Campaign Clarification can be introduced to make it work.
A few people have had bad experiences walking into each other blind on this one. I would like to get everyone on the same page, whichever one that is.
If it doesn't work the dervish dancers need the same rebuild that the slashing gracers got, because that is a very important cog in the watch.
If it works the saranite tabernacle choir can go back to calling people that don't allow it dms and I'll fire up another kitsune in the litter called Flare de'Bonaire. And grumble about paizos inconsistent persnicket levels.
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...to make the already-struggling-magus more playable.
When folks make comments like this, it makes me go googly-eyed. I'm not sure how you can consider the Magus "already-struggling". Its one of the more powerful classes out there, even if you don't do a Dex-based version.
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Its one of the more powerful classes out there, even if you don't do a Dex-based version.
Magus isn't a powerful class by any metric.
However the AM-MAGUS build is strong enough to give the illusion that the class is in a good spot. It accomplishes this by having several key pieces that all syngergize; perfectly with each other. Removing any one of those pieces results in that illusion crumbling, and the class tumbling down into borderline uselessness.
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Its one of the more powerful classes out there, even if you don't do a Dex-based version.Magus isn't a powerful class by any metric.
However the AM-MAGUS build is strong enough to give the illusion that the class is in a good spot. It accomplishes this by having several key pieces that all syngergize; perfectly with each other. Removing any one of those pieces results in that illusion crumbling, and the class tumbling down into borderline uselessness.
Sure... hyperbole away if you like. Anecdotal evidence at the table has shown me, at all levels, that the Magus (dex, str, black blade, whatever) is extremely strong and competent. I've seen several, all of them slightly different across the gamut of types of magi you can make. I have never heard arguments such as you are making.
Therefore, I can only conclude that your supposition that Maguses struggle is just wrong.
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Yeah, I'm solidly in the "no" for a campaign clarification.
If we have to petition for more campaign clarifications, how about we make crappy things better rather than good things useless for once*?
We're never going to get a defining consensus on "wielding" as the nerf that was implemented to nuke slashing & fencing grace is mutually exclusive with the ruling of "wielding" that was required to prevent defending armor spikes and shields from being always on. It's OOTS "levels" without the humor.
*Prone Shooter change not withstanding.
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Sure... hyperbole away if you like. Anecdotal evidence at the table has shown me, at all levels, that the Magus (dex, str, black blade, whatever) is extremely strong and competent. I've seen several, all of them slightly different across the gamut of types of magi you can make. I have never heard arguments such as you are making.
Therefore, I can only conclude that your supposition that Maguses struggle is just wrong.
Yes, please, flippantly dismiss my point without engaging with it.
The fact the vast majority of Magi gravitate toward one specific weapon, speaks to a fundamental flaw within the class.
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Magi isn't the crazy powerful class it's made out to be.....unless you build in once specific way (Dervish Dance, Magical Lineage + Wayang Shadowhunter for Shocking Grasp, Intensify, Maximize, and Empower metamagic feats).
Without this build it's not crazy powerful. Seriously, try a str based magus without those traits on shocking grasp. You'll be decent, but not insane.
Alternatively, try a dex based magus with Dervish Dance, but without those traits. Same deal.
A well-built inquisitor or warpriest can easily be far more powerful than a magus unless you take that one specific build.
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Wait....Is all of this solved by just casting the spell before you hit with you scimitar? Because once the spell is done, the hand is empty right?
This doesn't work with the Grace feats because they specify they don't work with TWFing and similar abilities (and the FAQ even goes as far to explicitly list Spell Combat).
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for the sake of argument let's take the negative case, a spell in the off hand prevents the use of Dervish Dance.
Transferring the spell to your weapon hand is a free action by FAQ and then allows you to use Dervish Dance. This proves that Dervish Dance is usable in both cases.
No. Thats like arguing you can two weapon fight with 1 weapon by switching it between hands because thats also a free action and strengthens the case for intent heavy reading
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Magi isn't the crazy powerful class it's made out to be.....unless you build in once specific way (Dervish Dance, Magical Lineage + Wayang Shadowhunter for Shocking Grasp, Intensify, Maximize, and Empower metamagic feats).
Without this build it's not crazy powerful. Seriously, try a str based magus without those traits on shocking grasp. You'll be decent, but not insane.
Alternatively, try a dex based magus with Dervish Dance, but without those traits. Same deal.
A well-built inquisitor or warpriest can easily be far more powerful than a magus unless you take that one specific build.
As I have said, I've seen Magi built in several different ways without all the power-gaming monster builds. And they've all been incredibly strong.
But I'm more than willing to accept your assertion that they aren't as crazy powerful as they are cracked up to be, than "they are useless." Which is patently false.
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Sure... hyperbole away if you like. Anecdotal evidence at the table has shown me, at all levels, that the Magus (dex, str, black blade, whatever) is extremely strong and competent. I've seen several, all of them slightly different across the gamut of types of magi you can make. I have never heard arguments such as you are making.
Therefore, I can only conclude that your supposition that Maguses struggle is just wrong.
Yes, please, flippantly dismiss my point without engaging with it.
The fact the vast majority of Magi gravitate toward one specific weapon, speaks to a fundamental flaw within the class.
I didn't see a point wroth engaging with other than to say its a false assertion. Hyperbole is hard to engage with anyways, because there is usually no basis for such an over-exaggeration. And thus no statistics or even anecdotal evidence to discuss.
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Slashing Grace is a horrifically designed feat that arose from a long series of band-aids to poorly thought out design decisions. It originally had nothing to do with adding your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls. That was tacked on late at the last minute.
Dervish Dance has clear, unambiguous language. There's absolutely no good reason to change a feat that has worked well in organized play for 7 years.
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No. Thats like arguing you can two weapon fight with 1 weapon by switching it between hands because thats also a free action and strengthens the case for intent heavy readingfor the sake of argument let's take the negative case, a spell in the off hand prevents the use of Dervish Dance.
Transferring the spell to your weapon hand is a free action by FAQ and then allows you to use Dervish Dance. This proves that Dervish Dance is usable in both cases.
TWF specifically calls out that it has to be with different weapons thus preventing the swapping of weapon to other hands.
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Dervish Dance has clear, unambiguous language.
Two problems with that. With regards to the magus no one saying this is responding to the list of things people find ambiguous/ opposed to your view. So if im posting ambiguities and you say they re not there this really isn't much of a response if any....?
The second is that taking the statement literally goes completely around any intent the statement might have.
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Did my post about just casting the spell before you attack get passed over? Once the spell is no longer in your hand Dancing Dervish works fine, unlike the Grace feats which specifically call out not working anytime you use TWFing and abilities like it (even specifically calls out not working with Spell Combat).