Okay, okay, to start off, I know most bonuses don't stack with the same kind of bonus. However....
My level 10th level Herald Caller Cleric picked up the Proxy Summoning feat at 9th, and I have a Metamagic Rod of Giant Summoning.
Proxy Summoning
Righteous Might
And of course: Rod of Giant Summoning
So both the Rod of Giant Summoning and Righteous Might say they increase the size category, and both give size bonuses to ability scores. The Rod uses the Giant Template, while the spell is more of a straightforward change, akin to Enlarge Person.
If I was to summon an Ankylosaurus, for example, the Rod of Giant Summoning would increase it to Gargantuan. Then, I jump through the hoops of casting a touch spell to trigger Proxy Summoning, and then cast Righteous Might on my Super-Ankylosaurus.
So....uh....what happens? It becomes Colossal, but do the size bonuses stack, or no? Do I use the size modification table in lieu of one or the other? Or is it as simple as both stacking, do to the size increase?
Thank you all in advance for your suggestions. My GM is on the fence, so anything you all suggest would be great.
Last line of the spell: "Magical effects that increase size do not stack." Only 1 effective size increase and 1 actual size increase can be applied, for example Enlarge Person and the Impact weapon special ability.
Huh... the template gives 'size' bonuses, thats odd. No clue. I would have expected the template to just give increases, not typed bonuses.
I think we were reading it as the creature is summoned a size category larger, then Righteous Might is applied, so they would stack. Esentially not summoning a Huge Ankylosaurus at all, but rather summoning a Gargantuan Ankylosaurus.
I can absolutely see the argument the other way, however.
I can't see any way to argue that the size change from a Rod of Giant Summoning isn't a magical effect. The rod is a magic item that has the effect of applying the template, therefore it wouldn't stack with Righteous Might.
The Ankylosaurus is naturally huge, and is made gargantuan by the casting of a summoning spell while using the rod.
"The wielder can use the rod up to three times per day to augment her casting of a conjuration (summoning) spell, causing all of her summoned creatures to gain the giant simple template."
That makes it clear that the rod isn't causing the spell to find larger versions of creatures, it is causing the creatures to become larger.
^^^ may be right, but i have done it. i see the rod as you summoning a giant version of the creature, just like celestial. they are born that way.than the spell would work. talk to your GM. in the end it is there call. my table,you can do it.
I agree with your reasoning Jeff, but still not convinced it works.
Leave summoning, rods, and spell sharing shenanigans out of it.
You walk outside the tavern and find a Giant Rat in the alley. You cast animal growth on it. What happens?
Both animal growth and the Giant template give size bonuses to strength and con, and so won't stack, raw. Neither will the dex bonus if you Reduce Person on a Young human. It is weird.
I think these templates should not be giving "size" bonuses to attributes.
Jeff Morse wrote: ^^^ may be right, but i have done it. i see the rod as you summoning a giant version of the creature, just like celestial. they are born that way.than the spell would work. talk to your GM. in the end it is there call. my table,you can do it. It's fine for a house rule, but there is nothing that points to the rod working in that way. The rod adds the template, it doesn't find a creature that already has the template. If this is meant to be a houserule thread it should be moved from the rules questions forum.
I didn't mean for it to be a houserule; I wanted to officially confirm whether or not it worked.
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Okay... It says it causes it to gain the template. So it gives it the template. For how long? No duration listed. So it just has the template now. That Ankylosaurus is just bigger now, and when it goes back to wherever it came from it's friends and relatives will be rather confused. But it is no longer a magical effect. It just has a template. It was given that template by magic, but it is not a magical effect any longer.
So: I would say, RAW, the size increase stacks, the stat bonuses (Being typed bonuses of the same type) do not, so take the higher of the two for any particular attribute.
toastedamphibian wrote: Okay... It says it causes it to gain the template. So it gives it the template. For how long? No duration listed. So it just has the template now. That Ankylosaurus is just bigger now, and when it goes back to wherever it came from it's friends and relatives will be rather confused. But it is no longer a magical effect. It just has a template. It was given that template by magic, but it is not a magical effect any longer.
So: I would say, RAW, the size increase stacks, the stat bonuses (Being typed bonuses of the same type) do not, so take the higher of the two for any particular attribute.
It's fairly obvious that the template would only last as long as the creature is summoned. If the template was meant to last longer than the duration of the spell and apply when the creature returned home the item description would say so. However, even if we take your argument to be true; it's still a magical effect that applied the template, so the size increases wouldn't stack.
As the stat bonuses of both effects are size bonus they will not stack, and that seem an intended feature when speaking of size increasing magic, even if given by applying a template.
On the other hand animals with the giant template being unable to benefit from animal growth is weird.
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If the animal has the template naturally (through selective breeding for example) then it should be able to benefit from magical size changes, it is only when the template is applied by magical means that they wouldn't stack.
Gallant Armor wrote: If the animal has the template naturally (through selective breeding for example) then it should be able to benefit from magical size changes, it is only when the template is applied by magical means that they wouldn't stack. As a principle I agree.
The problem is that the template stat bonuses aren't inherent to the new form, they are size bonuses. The same kind of bonus that they will receive by the spells.
"A wizard did it" is such a ubiquitous occurrence that I find your argument utterly uncompelling.
Many creatures only exist at all because of magic.
Freak accident, wild magic, strange bloodline, a tinkering wizard, the hand of fate or divine intervention: the rules never say to treat a template differently depending on how you aquire it.
If you have a template that makes you bigger, you are just bigger. That is your natural state now, you've been fundamentally changed.
If the rod just wanted them to gain temporary size/stat bonuses, it would say that.
toastedamphibian wrote: "A wizard did it" is such a ubiquitous occurrence that I find your argument utterly uncompelling.
Many creatures only exist at all because of magic.
Freak accident, wild magic, strange bloodline, a tinkering wizard, the hand of fate or divine intervention: the rules never say to treat a template differently depending on how you aquire it.
If you have a template that makes you bigger, you are just bigger. That is your natural state now, you've been fundamentally changed.
If the rod just wanted them to gain temporary size/stat bonuses, it would say that.
PRD wrote: Giant Creature (+1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.
Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.
It can be the effect of anything , even evolution (there where giant sloths till 15.000 years ago). What matter, for the rules, is that it is a size bonus.
For the rules a giant version of some creature will not gain bonus to Str and Con by further increasing its size (it will gain the other effects, as those aren't size bonuses).
We are specifically debating the size category stacking. Everyone seems to agree that the "size bonus" to attributes don't stack. I feel the templates shouldn't be written that way, but that's not really relevant.
toastedamphibian wrote: "A wizard did it" is such a ubiquitous occurrence that I find your argument utterly uncompelling.
Many creatures only exist at all because of magic.
Freak accident, wild magic, strange bloodline, a tinkering wizard, the hand of fate or divine intervention: the rules never say to treat a template differently depending on how you aquire it.
If you have a template that makes you bigger, you are just bigger. That is your natural state now, you've been fundamentally changed.
If the rod just wanted them to gain temporary size/stat bonuses, it would say that.
Magic is magic, and the rules say magical size increases don't stack.
Some things are just left to the logic of the reader. If a rod alters the effects of a spell, they don't feel the need to explain that the altered effect only lasts for the duration of the spell. By your logic, the additional creatures summoned using a Cauldron of Overwhelming Allies should remain after the duration of the spell expires because the item doesn't indicate that their summoning time is linked to the spell used to summon them.
Another example would be Summon Guardian Spirit. If creatures gain the template permanently, a single use of the rod would allow for the guardian spirit to be summoned with that template throughout the caster's career, even if the caster never acquires the normal or greater versions of the rod.
Your the one who wanted to be anal about the use of the word "gain", not my problem if that results in consequences you don't like.
toastedamphibian wrote: Your the one who wanted to be anal about the use of the word "gain", not my problem if that results in consequences you don't like. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that a template gained by a spell would necessarily last longer than the duration of the spell. By default the effects of a spell last for the indicated duration and then they end. The same would be true of the template.
Even if the creatures did keep the template, it would still be gained through magical means, and thus other magical size increases wouldn't stack.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules to suggest that any of your assertions are true.
Skeletons gain a template through magic. Skeletons are not magical.
Thus, a template gained through magic is not necessarily magical.
Reincarnation can cause your size to change. Reincarnation is a spell. Your change in size is not a magical size alteration.
Templates are not spells, not spell like abilities, not supernatural abilities, and not magic items. They cannot be dispelled nor dismissed, nor rendered innert by an antimagic field. Source irrelevant, they are not magic in the rules sense.
Edit: I would further point out that by your insistence on the importance of the word "gain" and the wording of numerous feats and spells, one does not summon celestial or fiendish creatures, creatures from the outer planes, but rather summons perfectly ordinary creatures and then retroactively change their place of creation by then applying a template to them.
It's almost like they where telling you to apply the template, and not implying narrative causality.
toastedamphibian wrote: Skeletons gain a template through magic. Skeletons are not magical.
Thus, a template gained through magic is not necessarily magical.
The effect is magical even if the base form is not. The template would still be considered magical.
toastedamphibian wrote: Reincarnation can cause your size to change. Reincarnation is a spell. Your change in size is not a magical size alteration. In that instance your base form would change to another base form, which is entirely different from a size change to an existing base form.
toastedamphibian wrote: Templates are not spells, not spell like abilities, not supernatural abilities, and not magic items. They cannot be dispelled nor dismissed, nor rendered innert by an antimagic field. Source irrelevant, they are not magic in the rules sense. If the template was applied by a magic effect it would certainly be rendered inert by an antimagic field.
toastedamphibian wrote: Edit: I would further point out that by your insistence on the importance of the word "gain" and the wording of numerous feats and spells, one does not summon celestial or fiendish creatures, creatures from the outer planes, but rather summons perfectly ordinary creatures and then retroactively change their place of creation by then applying a template to them.
It's almost like they where telling you to apply the template, and not implying narrative causality.
The wording of the Summon Good Monster feat would indicate that those creatures naturally have the template, the only thing the creatures gain by being summoned is the Diehard feat. Alternatively, the specific wording of the rod indicates that you are summoning the base form and applying the template. This could very well be intentional to prevent stacking size increases.
Gallant Armor wrote:
The effect is magical even if the base form is not. The template would still be considered magical.
Based on?
Quote: If the template was applied by a magic effect it would certainly be rendered inert by an antimagic field. Incorrect. Skeletons, even those created by animate dead, are not destroyed nor suppresed by antimagic. Unless they changed that from 3.5.
Quote: The wording of the Summon Good Monster feat would indicate that those creatures naturally have the template... Expanded Summon Monster, Versatile Summon Monster, and Summon Neutral monster all say "apply".
toastedamphibian wrote: Gallant Armor wrote:
The effect is magical even if the base form is not. The template would still be considered magical.
Based on? The word magical. A magical effect is magical, hence the word magical. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
toastedamphibian wrote: Gallant Armor wrote: If the template was applied by a magic effect it would certainly be rendered inert by an antimagic field. Incorrect. Skeletons, even those created by animate dead, are not destroyed nor suppresed by antimagic. Unless they changed that from 3.5. From antimagic field:"Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned."
I missed that the first time. Undead are part of a specific exemption, there is nothing to indicate that this applies to all templates.
toastedamphibian wrote: Gallant Armor wrote: The wording of the Summon Good Monster feat would indicate that those creatures naturally have the template... Expanded Summon Monster, Versatile Summon Monster, and Summon Neutral monster all say "apply". The wording of those feats would indicate that the template is applied to the base form, the same as a rod of giant summoning.
You see "specific exemption" I see "clarification".
So Magical Beasts wink out of existence in your games? Must be Magic, it's right there in the name.
Neutral casters of Summon Monster "choose which template to apply".
Gallant Armor wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote: Gallant Armor wrote: If the template was applied by a magic effect it would certainly be rendered inert by an antimagic field. Incorrect. Skeletons, even those created by animate dead, are not destroyed nor suppresed by antimagic. Unless they changed that from 3.5. From antimagic field:"Elementals, undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned."
I missed that the first time. Undead are part of a specific exemption, there is nothing to indicate that this applies to all templates.
It applies to all creatures, unless summoned.
toastedamphibian wrote: You see "specific exemption" I see "clarification".
So Magical Beasts wink out of existence in your games? Must be Magic, it's right there in the name.
Neutral casters of Summon Monster "choose which template to apply".
The exception would apply to all base forms that require magic to exist. Magical effects applied to that base form are a different matter. If the giant template changed the creature type to magical beast then I can see your point, as is there is nothing to suggest that the changes would be considered a fundamental alteration.
Gallant Armor wrote: as is there is nothing to suggest that the changes would be considered a fundamental alteration. Templates
Quote: A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. All templates give precise directions on how to change a monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster.
In all honesty, the most compelling argument to me towards narrative intent is the name of the item. It is not a "Rod of Summoned Creature Enbiggening". It lets you summon giant creatures.
toastedamphibian wrote: Gallant Armor wrote: as is there is nothing to suggest that the changes would be considered a fundamental alteration. Templates
Quote: A template is a set of rules that you apply to a monster to transform it into a different monster. All templates give precise directions on how to change a monster's statistics to transform it into the new monster. Interesting point, but that was for the antimagic field tangent. It doesn't change the underlying rules on size increases not stacking.
"As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies."
Templates are not effects. Same with size changes due to monster advancement through hd or age category. Giant creatures are bigger.
Yes, giant creatures are bigger due to the template. The template has the effect of making them bigger.
A "fundamental alteration", not an ongoing effect. Like growth, or reincarnation.
A fundamental change is still an effect to the base form. If I cast Animate Dead on a corpse and transform it into a skeleton, that would have the effect of applying the skeleton template.
If you don't agree that the changes made by a template are effects, I think we are at an impasse.
Changes made by aging and natural growth are also effects then. Sorry, can't enlarge Timmy, your already bigger than when you where a toddler so it doesn't stack.
That is not what effect means as a game term, but hey, whatever you need to justify.
Aging is a natural process and as such wouldn't be considered an effect since it is the default. Effects require a cause of some sort, growing is just what happens when you age.
Unnaturally large creatures require a cause of some kind: selective breading, genetic mutation, magical intervention, etc. that sets it apart from normal growth.
The size increase from applying the giant template would be considered an effect as far as I can tell, what is the definition of effect as a game term in your opinion?
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