Nudism in SF


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quindraco wrote:
What do you do when you find out the Vesk are turned on by absolutely any kind of hat?

This is my new favourite Starfinder fact.


I mean, its not a fact any more than Triune giving out kittens or Nyarlethothep being three halflings sharing a trench coat, but it is a theory that does not contradict any observations.


If anyone makes Vesks turned on by hats in their game, please let me know how it went.


CorvusMask wrote:


On the actual topic, I wonder if Kasatha would be anti nudists since they are described as traditionalists and consider uncovered mouth obscene, or if they would be okay with nudity as long mouth is covered xP

Fritz Leiber's "Coming Attraction" posited a future human culture where uncovered faces were considered notably more obscene than any other body part, and made it work. Great story, and incredibly cyberpunk-feeling for something written in 1950.


Cyberpunk is often full of cool but strange stuff like that. I mean, going from the new Blade Runner movie, nudity probably isn't a big deal there when you've got multi-story, nude, holographic women as advertisements.


Azalah wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Suddenly, I have this vision of a whole bunch of living floating spheres with lots of eyes showing up to crack down on the recent upswing in lack of modesty . . . .

That sounds like something a very religious organization would do. They already do it in real life.

Yes, but as far as I know, very religious organizations in our world can't get THESE BEHOLDERS . . . .


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Azalah wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Suddenly, I have this vision of a whole bunch of living floating spheres with lots of eyes showing up to crack down on the recent upswing in lack of modesty . . . .

That sounds like something a very religious organization would do. They already do it in real life.

Yes, but as far as I know, very religious organizations in our world can't get THESE BEHOLDERS . . . .

Maybe. Maybe. But what is right and wrong as far as religions go is all in... The eye of of the beholder!

Yeah, that was bad, but I regret nothing.


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Azalah wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Azalah wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Suddenly, I have this vision of a whole bunch of living floating spheres with lots of eyes showing up to crack down on the recent upswing in lack of modesty . . . .

That sounds like something a very religious organization would do. They already do it in real life.

Yes, but as far as I know, very religious organizations in our world can't get THESE BEHOLDERS . . . .

Maybe. Maybe. But what is right and wrong as far as religions go is all in... The eye of of the beholder!

Yeah, that was bad, but I regret nothing.

You mean "but eye regret nothing".


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I am sure some people will regret beholding these puns.


We might need a poll rather than just eyeballing it.


Well this thread has turned j-ocular.


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I agree. We have lost sight of what this thread is about. We need to turn a blind eye to this nonsense.


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We cone’t let people get away with these jokes! Spare the rod, spoil the pupil. Iris my case.


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I don't see how this is helping. We must keep our eyes peeled for further off-topic stuff. What other race's perception of nudity shall we go into next?


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Nudity... is a three-edged sword.


Vorlon Brando wrote:
Nudity... is a three-edged sword.

Are you going to expand on that?


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Azalah wrote:
Are you going to expand on that?

CALCULATING... CALCULATING... Conclusion: No


Betteridge's Analytic Modron wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Are you going to expand on that?
CALCULATING... CALCULATING... Conclusion: No

That's sad. I would have liked to hear that explained.

Liberty's Edge

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Azalah wrote:
Betteridge's Analytic Modron wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Are you going to expand on that?
CALCULATING... CALCULATING... Conclusion: No
That's sad. I would have liked to hear that explained.

{smiles} Zathras knows. A Vorlon said understanding is a three-edged sword:

Spoiler:
your side, their side, and the truth.

No one ever listens to poor Zathras, no, he's quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind, has even grown to like it.


Old Zathras wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Betteridge's Analytic Modron wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Are you going to expand on that?
CALCULATING... CALCULATING... Conclusion: No
That's sad. I would have liked to hear that explained.

{smiles} Zathras knows. A Vorlon said understanding is a three-edged sword: ** spoiler omitted **

No one ever listens to poor Zathras, no, he's quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind, has even grown to like it.

I am even more confused than previously. How can there be three sides to simple nudity?


Azalah wrote:
Old Zathras wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Betteridge's Analytic Modron wrote:
Azalah wrote:
Are you going to expand on that?
CALCULATING... CALCULATING... Conclusion: No
That's sad. I would have liked to hear that explained.

{smiles} Zathras knows. A Vorlon said understanding is a three-edged sword: ** spoiler omitted **

No one ever listens to poor Zathras, no, he's quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind, has even grown to like it.

I am even more confused than previously. How can there be three sides to simple nudity?

There are two explanations of which I can think:

1) When someone is nude, there are three sides: the nudist's subjective experience, the observer(s) subjective experience, and the objective reality of a sentient not wearing clothes. For even when one is without clothes, one is usually still carrying their own intangible backpack of traditions, values, experiences, expectations, and perspectives. {rolls 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (5) + 2 = 7 Bluff check vs Azalah's Sense Motive to see if he falls for made-up-on-the-spot-bullcrap explanation}

b)

Spoiler:
The Vorlon was simply being tongue-in-cheek. (This is also the likeliest explanation.)

Wait, there is a π) possible explanation:

Spoiler:
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!


Spacecaptain Pillbug Lebowski wrote:

There are two explanations of which I can think:

1) When someone is nude, there are three sides: the nudist's subjective experience, the observer(s) subjective experience, and the objective reality of a sentient not wearing clothes. For even when one is without clothes, one is usually still carrying their own intangible backpack of traditions, values, experiences, expectations, and perspectives. {rolls 1d20+2 Bluff check vs Azalah's Sense Motive to see if he falls for made-up-on-the-spot-bullcrap explanation}

b) ** spoiler omitted **

Wait, there is a π) possible explanation: ** spoiler omitted **

You succeeded that Bluff check. Congratulations. You seriously had me considering that.

But you are correct, it probably was sarcastic, and it just went completely over my head.


Azalah wrote:
I am even more confused than previously. How can there be three sides to simple nudity?

It's quite as simple as it is. They want to exploit nudity so they can use sex to sell. They being most of the advertising industry. What is stupid is that they can't use sex to sell to a clothesfree population. But they try anyhow.

Advertising agencies need the puritanical and prudery of today in order to sell their products. They also need prurience to sell their products. Sex has been used to sell almost everything you can imagine. Unfortunately their is a prudery backlash happening right now and it's being led by (this is embarrassing) 3rd wave feminists. The backlash is being taken to an extreme with the burka and modest swimsuits.

On the other end of this spectrum is nudists. Generally we want to be free and feel freedom in our own skin, with the sun on our bodies. We have done away with the prudery and the feelings that nudity automatically equals sex. Nudists want the body to be normalized in society and want to change the way society sees a naked body.

The truth about this is so simple. The body is what the body is. A way for an individual essence (spirit) to experience life in. We can cover it up or not while going through life, covering it or uncovering it doesn't change the fact is that its our vehicle. A spiritual essence is not truly alive until it is in a body.

What sucks about this is that the crowds who believe that the body should be covered is much larger than the ones who believe that the body should be uncovered. For instance, it used to be allowed for young men to swim naked. The reason for this is that it was (still is) more sanitary to swim naked than it was with a suit. In today's culture, this permissiveness needs to come back. With bodies being photoshopped, sometimes more than is needed, we need to know what real bodies look like again. That's why I prefer to swim naked as much as I can, and where I can. I can even hike naked when I want to because here in my state, you can hike naked easily. Just have to watch for the rattlesnakes.

I'd rather swim naked (skinnydip) in mixed company. I saw a lot of real bodies, both naked and not while swimming, and I prefer the naked bodies. They are real. Nudists and naturists don't have to worry about being flattered by their clothes, worry about if their dress makes their butt look big, or worry about their body shape. They don't need to hide their bodies for modesty's sake because for them, modesty is a state of mind, not a state of dress.

There are a lot of Science Fiction novels that feature nudity and I already gone through most of them. In a future society like Starfinder's this is up to each GM on how permissive society is. As much as I like to change minds on the subject, I really can't. But for my games, society is permissive of nudity and it's allowed. (I don't really use Paizo's default setting for Starfinder, because I think there is a lot of potential in putting the classic D&D settings together using Starfinder as glue).

What Azalah asked if nudity is permitted in Starfinder's default setting. I say there shouldn't be an official ruling on this because its up to each GM to decide.


EltonJ wrote:
Azalah wrote:
I am even more confused than previously. How can there be three sides to simple nudity?

It's quite as simple as it is. They want to exploit nudity so they can use sex to sell. They being most of the advertising industry. What is stupid is that they can't use sex to sell to a clothesfree population. But they try anyhow.

Advertising agencies need the puritanical and prudery of today in order to sell their products. They also need prurience to sell their products. Sex has been used to sell almost everything you can imagine. Unfortunately their is a prudery backlash happening right now and it's being led by (this is embarrassing) 3rd wave feminists. The backlash is being taken to an extreme with the burka and modest swimsuits.

On the other end of this spectrum is nudists. Generally we want to be free and feel freedom in our own skin, with the sun on our bodies. We have done away with the prudery and the feelings that nudity automatically equals sex. Nudists want the body to be normalized in society and want to change the way society sees a naked body.

The truth about this is so simple. The body is what the body is. A way for an individual essence (spirit) to experience life in. We can cover it up or not while going through life, covering it or uncovering it doesn't change the fact is that its our vehicle. A spiritual essence is not truly alive until it is in a body.

What sucks about this is that the crowds who believe that the body should be covered is much larger than the ones who believe that the body should be uncovered. For instance, it used to be allowed for young men to swim naked. The reason for this is that it was (still is) more sanitary to swim naked than it was with a suit. In today's culture, this permissiveness needs to come back. With bodies being photoshopped, sometimes more than is needed, we need to know what real bodies look like again. That's why I prefer to swim naked as much as I can, and where I can. I can even hike naked when I want to...

Well said. Regardless of whether public nudity is allowed in the society of the Pact Worlds, the fact remains that there will be nudists and naturists. Throughout all of history, there has always been societies that accept being naked and societies that view it as almost evil. And I don't see an exception to that going into the future.

However, it seems that most people (here, at least) seem to agree that it would at least be legal, even if it's not entirely acceptable by the majority. But Mark Moreland did give his two cents on the matter, which is probably the best authority we have to go on, and it sounds as if more culturally diverse areas like Absalom Station would have no issue with it.

Yet even if public nudity is illegal all around, there are still plenty of lawless areas. A ship captain, for example, who rarely ever leaves his ship could probably go naked as much as he wishes. Other nudists and naturists would only have to ask the captain of the particular ship they are riding on if they can be naked while out of their quarters. And considering that most ships and stations seem to have communal showers anyway, I don't see why not unless it's a strict military ship or the captain is just one of "those people."

And if the player character is a nudist/naturist and the party has their own ship, well, then nothing is really stopping them. Considering most Drift times take around a week, the day or two they'd have to spend dressed while only in public at a station or something would probably not be that much of a big deal, even if they would complain about it.

And again, there are armors that can easily offer partial nudity. Sure, they may have to wear pants with their Freebooter armor while meeting with someone to take a job, but they probably wouldn't have to wear them to go investigate that outpost that hidden research base that suddenly went dark.


I mean, we know some races walk around naked - the Alien Archive has multiple playable races portrayed solely in the nude, including Skittermanders and Barathu. I think it has to vary by race (you'll note we have yet to have any pictures of Vesks in hats, because this is a book marketed to children, you should be ashamed of yourself!), and Absalom Station is too eclectic and too corporate to busy itself with worrying about that kind of nonsense. Laws are going to vary by planet - and the station itself is only going to get involved when sophonts actually oppose each other.

I'd actually be keen on getting more insight into civilian life on the station - there are myriad ways society could be structured on it, and the core book is pretty scant on details. I find myself realizing I have no idea if e.g. people who can no longer afford to pay rent still have any say in their government - the station seems pretty apt for a plutocracy. But that's only one of many, many ways the society could be structured, and it's difficult to reason about their laws without knowing anything meaningful about their society.


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Nudism is disallowed in the Starfinder universe.

Powered armor speedos on the other hand? Totally different story.


Like I said. Even if it's illegal, there are multiple ways around it. So nudism/naturism will be there, somewhere, even if it's not explicitly stated. It's just a part of human nature that there always was and probably always will be at least some nudists/naturists.

What's up to the GM is if they bring it up or allow it in their games.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would say that, while still along the lines of being less popular than being clothed, nudism almost certainly isn't illegal, even within the populous areas of the pact worlds.

One of the deities they listed in the CRB is Arshea, the Spirit of Abandon. While her purview does focus on sexual abandon, there is not a far jump from that to true freedom of the self, sexual or otherwise. She also venerates "physical beauty" which is best demonstrated without clothing. Note that this is distinct from Shelyn's preference for "aesthetic", which can be nude or clothed.

The Verthani (Alien Archive) can change their skin pigment at will, and with perfect control. Closely tied into the concept someone brought up earlier of full-body paint as clothing, it would be difficult to tell at first glance if a Verthani were wearing anything, despite being skinned (as in, not furred, scaled, plasmic, or chitinous) humanoids. From the female Verthani art, the only clothing I could 100% identify were her heeled boots...unless female Verthani feet are actually shaped like that! D:


Looking over Arshea and the Verthani in more detail, I can certainly see why worshippers of Arshea and the Verthani in general would tend to wear less. The Verthani in particular has a social group with brands on their chests and refuse to cover them up. And then the Verthani have a racial ability that they can't even use if more than 1/4th of their body is covered.

That also somewhat legitimizes even further my idea of partially or fully nude armor. It says in the description of that ability, "A verthani wearing clothing or armor that covers more than one-quarter of his body can’t use this ability."

So there is armor that can only cover one-quarter, and probably less, of the body.

Also, as far as deities and nudism go, Weydan and Desna might also have a few worshiping them. Both advocate for freedom and expression.

From the CRB: "He and Desna share a love of liberty, and Weydan believes in every sentient species' right to freedom, unfettered by restrictive laws."


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Lymnieris comes the closest of any of the deities to requiring non-sexual nudity as part of his (?) celestial obedience, but there seems to be some sort of sexual reference in every obedience that requires nudity.


David knott 242 wrote:

Lymnieris comes the closest of any of the deities to requiring non-sexual nudity as part of his (?) celestial obedience, but there seems to be some sort of sexual reference in every obedience that requires nudity.

I honestly don't know anything about the lore of Pathfinder or Golarian. Never really had reason to learn it. It's part of the reason I like Starfinder. It puts quite a bit of lore into the core book while also making it so no one knows much of Golarian as well.

Still, looking up Lymnieris, he seems to be more a deity of sexual freedom. So perhaps voyeurs, but probably not naturists and nudists.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I did say closest, definitely not on the mark, for Lymnieris.

Anyway, a follower of Lymnieris would be more of an exhibitionist than a voyeur if he or she performs the obedience under any conditions except complete privacy.


David knott 242 wrote:

I did say closest, definitely not on the mark, for Lymnieris.

Anyway, a follower of Lymnieris would be more of an exhibitionist than a voyeur if he or she performs the obedience under any conditions except complete privacy.

For some reason, I couldn't remember that "exhibitionism" was a word, and kept getting it confused with voyeurism. Sheesh. Apparently I need to read up more on kinks.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If you want to talk kinks, I know a Vesk haberdasher you could talk to.

Or, you know, just go for the setting canon goddess of kink.


Alayern wrote:

If you want to talk kinks, I know a Vesk haberdasher you could talk to.

Or, you know, just go for the setting canon goddess of kink.

If I wasn't phobic/allergic of wasps...

Though I did know a guy who made a Cleric who worshiped her. To be healed, you had to drink her breast milk. That campaign did not last long.


One of the reasons I play a Lashunta is the PATHFINDER write-up on the race says that they only wear clothing as dictated by necessity. I would therefore assume that while aboard a ship with environmental control they will spend the majority of their time completely nude.


Ifn yous wantin to be nudey in the vaccum of space youd had better be a starshaman. Lets puta pin in this comment while i catch myself up on the thread then.

As a nudist in real life you spend most of your time in clothing and only shuck yourslf of the shackles of Society while you're relaxing.

Wait, I thought George Lucas created the Ewok so he can sell toys.

Jasque wrote:
Undead can walk around freely.

not while phrasma's followers, worshippers and fanatics are about. From how i understand it phrasma has had a "kill on sight" policy when it comes to undead since before the gap. I have a hard time believing phrasma would stand having eox about.


Sir RicHunt Attenwampi wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
... There's no mechanical effect of going around naked other than a loss of AC, environmental protection, and pockets...

All of these drawbacks are easily and affordably resolvable through the judicious implantation of appropriate RyskCo® Bioware™, LLC products. RyskCo® Bioware™: Live Adventurously!

* The subdermal armorweave and envirosuit systems are quite inconspicuous, but we still haven't figured out a design for the pouchware line that doesn't make the implantee look like a Liefeldian horror out of Giger's nightmares.

** RyskCo® Bioware™ is the official bioenhancement line of druids and succubi in the MEA (Mixed Erotic Arts) League.

kangaroo pouches? >.> I mean biopockets.....


Clothing is a cultural thing, except when you're in a climate where being nude is detrimental. Nobody wants to be nude at 30 below zero.


I think the diaspora of alien races and cultures combined with the massive technological (and resulting cultural) progress, nudism, polyamory, alternate lifestyles, etc wouldn't shock anyone anymore. Once you meet a species with its genitals worn proudly on its face it probably becomes redundant to require everyone else to wear pants.


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Or people develop a strong us vs them mentality and we become the people who wear pants and make war on those who do not.

Sentient life is weird enough that its hard to say with any certainty what it might do given changing circumstances


gamer-printer wrote:
Clothing is a cultural thing, except when you're in a climate where being nude is detrimental. Nobody wants to be nude at 30 below zero.

While there are people who ski in the nude.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EltonJ wrote:
gamer-printer wrote:
Clothing is a cultural thing, except when you're in a climate where being nude is detrimental. Nobody wants to be nude at 30 below zero.
While there are people who ski in the nude.

There are people who do a lot of things. Do they ski in the nude because its actually pleasant and safe, or do they ski in the nude because they wish to send an ideological message, to either others or themselves?


Metaphysician wrote:
EltonJ wrote:
gamer-printer wrote:
Clothing is a cultural thing, except when you're in a climate where being nude is detrimental. Nobody wants to be nude at 30 below zero.
While there are people who ski in the nude.
There are people who do a lot of things. Do they ski in the nude because its actually pleasant and safe, or do they ski in the nude because they wish to send an ideological message, to either others or themselves?

Nobody goes skiing at 30 below zero though, the snow is too hard. I'm sure they get dressed after their run though.


Yay for a necro thread.

There's plenty of reasons why going nude could be viable, even aboard a starship.

One is to cut back on the amount of cleaning clothes. It takes resources to do that. Water, power, cleaning agents, and space. All of which would be at a premium.

Two is the fact that most people on said starship likely take showers in communal shower rooms, as the book specifically says they do. So people are already accustomed to seeing each other in the nude. Think of the shower scene in Starship Troopers. (The author of the book the movie was based on, by the way, was also a nudist.)

Those are just two I can come up with off the top of my head.

As for the space-walk and harsh conditions, I don't understand why this is an argument. It's completely idiotic. Of *course* people are going to wear protection when they need to. Really, what kind of thought process is that? It is probably the stupidest argument I have ever heard, and yet it seems to be the most popular.


Well since someone went and necroed it...

I was thinking about vesk and their hat fetish. It occured to me that if vesk have horns or crest ridges that they use to identify each other by sex that pretty much anything on the head remotely fitting that profile might trigger the same emotions, like an extra large codpiece on some armors or plastic surgeries to expand certain areas to ludicrous degrees...


I haven't read the description of Vesk in a while, but don't they normally tell the difference by color? Aka, women being brighter, more vibrant hues, while the men are somewhat muted in comparison? Also, I think the women are on average slightly bigger.


*Reads title not thread*

I approve!


Nives Burer wrote:

*Reads title not thread*

I approve!

Good!

In all seriousness, it seems the only argument that most people have against it is, "But you'll die if you go to a deadly environment!"


Azalah wrote:
Nives Burer wrote:

*Reads title not thread*

I approve!

Good!

In all seriousness, it seems the only argument that most people have against it is, "But you'll die if you go to a deadly environment!"

Like a community with clothing standards and weapons.

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