So, say you are a female rogue vishkanya with the sleep poison feat and you used your skills at getting close to your enemies and deceiving them to good use. You have gotten nice and personal with your target and you need to formulate a plan to capture and subdue them without a weapon or causing a ruckus. you get the brilliant idea of getting them to take you into a deep, passionate french kiss and spit your toxin down their throat.
Would it work?
The poison is titled as a toxin, which means digestion would result in it taking effect, right? And would your target get a save to try and recognize that they might be getting a mouthful of sleepy poison, albeit a penalty or bonus if they are not suspicious of you, or do not already know you have the poison ability (most likely using a knowledge nature check and/or sense motive check)? And you would probably need to do a diplomacy to coax a kiss out of them, though it would probably be very easy if it seems like a good time for a kiss and if they are attracted to you.
Your thoughts on this.
and as a side note, would getting a deep kiss from a vishkanya cause you to ingest the venom even if both parties didn't intend to have it happen?
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I'd say kissing would work, if they got enough of it. Injury/ingestion, it gets into your blood both ways.
As for accidental I would say no, since you only have a limited number of uses per day so you would to make it concentrated enough or something in order to use it.
After the save I would say they could try a heal check to see if they've been drugged.
As for how you get to the kiss that is entirely between you and GM or other player if you're kissing their character.
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And later when the kiss is done, the recipient will likely be speaking gibberish--either because of how good the kiss was or because his/her tongue has gone numb from the venom. XD
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Since ARG, I've head-canoned that kissing a vishkanya (that chooses not to poison the partner) is like eating expertly prepared fugu (tingling, mild ecstasy). This also plays into the whole sensual seductive legends around them.
Kissing would work but... given the forked tongue, the scales on the skin and the eyes unless they're really comfortable I'd go for a Sense Motive check. Actually I'd roll a sense motive anyway even if you had subtle appearence or were disguised.
No can't poison your partner by mistake. You activate it.
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Since ARG, I've head-canoned that kissing a vishkanya (that chooses not to poison the partner) is like eating expertly prepared fugu (tingling, mild ecstasy). This also plays into the whole sensual seductive legends around them.
I am definetely taking this to my DM and asking for the same ruling.
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The eyes should not be much more of a problem for Vishkanya than they are for Elves. Neither race has visible pupils.
As for the reactions of humans to their other features, I suspect that there would be no consistent pattern. Some people would be horrified by their inhuman features, while others would be fascinated. Some people might have both reactions at the same time.
Shouldn't this be in advice or homebrew?
RAW, no, none of this works. Your abilities do exactly what they say they do. There's nothing about any delivery method other than applying your poison to a weapon. Are creatures that bite vishkanyas subject to their poison, despite arguably getting blood in their mouths? No. They aren't. Is there anything that suggests that you can bypass saves somehow? No. Absolutely not.
For a houserule? Are you the GM? Feel free to say yes. Are you the player? Ask your GM.
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Attackers don't get poisoned when they bite because they have to spend an action activating the poison, if there was an immediate action or always on I'd say they could.
As for application, yes, ingesting an injury poison would affect, otherwise would just be silly.
And I don't think anyone's said anything about bypassing saves?
Attackers don't get poisoned when they bite because they have to spend an action activating the poison, if there was an immediate action or always on I'd say they could.
As for application, yes, ingesting an injury poison would affect, otherwise would just be silly.
Toxic: A number of times per day equal to his Constitution modifier (minimum 1/day), a vishkanya can envenom a weapon that he wields with his toxic saliva or blood
A tongue is not a wielded weapon.
And I don't think anyone's said anything about bypassing saves?
And would your target get a save...albeit a penalty or bonus
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As for application, yes, ingesting an injury poison would affect, otherwise would just be silly.
Note: It's called Vishkanya Venom (with the Sleep Venom feat) & is only delivered via injury.
Rather than being silly - it's actually how venoms work in real life (which are not the same as poisons). I could go and drink a tall glass of lethal snake venom and be perfectly fine as long as there are no cuts on the inside of my mouth or digestive track. It's also part of the reason why the trope of sucking out the venom from a snakebite doesn't kill the person performing it (though don't actually try this - most venoms spread too quickly for it to actually help).
The poison is titled as a toxin, which means digestion would result in it taking effect, right?
The term toxin simply refers to the method of production (organically), not the method of delivery.
Pathfinder seems to use the loose definition of the word poison to more easily refer to a broad section of rules, including venoms without noting the distinction between the two and simply listing them as poison(injury). Venoms actually function by riding the circulatory system to a part of the body which they then interfere with. If digested, the acid in your stomach will break them down and render the venom harmless (assuming there are no cuts in the mouth/digestive track which let them into the bloodstream prior to being completely broken down). This is why venoms in nature are typically delivered via a bite or sting (swiftly traveling through the blood to whatever part of the body they affect).
In games terms, this means that anything listed only as poison(injury), such as venoms, are not able to survive stomach acid/enzymes and cannot be used as poison(ingested).
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TL;DR: It doesn't work by RAW & there's actually good real world reasons it shouldn't. Even though I personally think the idea of poisonous kisses putting someone to sleep sounds awesome.
Well then, if we are going to homebrew land with the ruling, a swift bite to the tongue or lip will be necessary. Given the improvised natural attack being used (never thought of an improvised natural weapon before) it might be reasonable to give a bonus to the poison save for inefficient delivery.
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I always kinda thought the vishkanya were based off of Rappaccini's daughter in that they have a strange and elegant beauty but they are naturally poisonous even to be around. Like if any creature who wasn't also poisonous by nature tried to show them love, like trying to kiss them or other... affectionate activities, they would be poisoned, which would make their love so alluring yet dangerous (much like the scientist's daughter herself). Although I guess most of this is just left to house rules and GM discretion.
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Incidentally, the Villain Codex that Paizo just released has feats that let a vishkanya turn her injury poison into other types. Contact is covered.
Huh, after pulling up my copy of Villain Codex - looks like the feat Demiurge mentioned is actually called "Deadly Kiss," so there you go.
Also has a feat to make your venom into a perfume that can be inhaled by an adjacent target to take effect.
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I'm disappointed. I've looked at this thread twice now, and no one, no one at all, has discussed grappling...
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Whether the type of venom or toxin is still viable as a poison when ingested, everybody must admit that the trope of transmitting poison via a kiss *is* a thing. I mean, we even saw it in such an out-of-the-way place as Marvel's Agent Carter.
Rule of cool says you should be able to do it.
Ruling it an injury-only poison is like throwing a bucket of the cold water of logic all over the coolness.
YMMV.
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Absolutely!
I'm disappointed. I've looked at this thread twice now, and no one, no one at all, has discussed grappling...
read again, it's Vishanya, not a succubus ;)
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Although in theory, other fluids could be equally toxic.
This seems like a perfect candidate for a racial trait.
Intoxicating Kiss: Once per day, when kissing another creature, you may poison that creature with your vishkanya venom. This is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. An unwilling target must be grappled before you can use this ability.
Note: Changing the type to 'contact' or 'ingested' is another possibility, but those would be rather complex changes for a trait. With those changes, the poison's onset time increases and the frequence decreases (which may or may not be desirable, depending upon circumstances). In that case, a feat would be the correct design space.
Also, kissing might take longer than a standard action.
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This seems like a perfect candidate for a racial trait.
Intoxicating Kiss: Once per day, when kissing another creature, you may poison that creature with your vishkanya venom. This is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. An unwilling target must be grappled before you can use this ability.
Note: Changing the type to 'contact' or 'ingested' is another possibility, but those would be rather complex changes for a trait. With those changes, the poison's onset time increases and the frequence decreases (which may or may not be desirable, depending upon circumstances). In that case, a feat would be the correct design space.
Also, kissing might take longer than a standard action.
That sounds like it'll need some playtesting. ;)
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That sounds like it'll need some playtesting. ;)This seems like a perfect candidate for a racial trait.
Intoxicating Kiss: Once per day, when kissing another creature, you may poison that creature with your vishkanya venom. This is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. An unwilling target must be grappled before you can use this ability.
Note: Changing the type to 'contact' or 'ingested' is another possibility, but those would be rather complex changes for a trait. With those changes, the poison's onset time increases and the frequence decreases (which may or may not be desirable, depending upon circumstances). In that case, a feat would be the correct design space.
Also, kissing might take longer than a standard action.
Or LARPing.
The eyes should not be much more of a problem for Vishkanya than they are for Elves. Neither race has visible pupils.
Vishkanya do actually. "serpentine eyes of burnished gold" is what the race description says and in the Advanced Race Guide the guy in the image has pupils too.
And from the Archines of Nethys
Strangely beautiful on the outside and poisonous on the inside, vishkanyas see the world through slitted serpent eyes