First Aid Gloves and UMD


Rules Questions


First Aid Gloves questions, mostly around Breath of Life [BoL] and Use Magic Device [UMD]

"The wearer of a pair of first aid gloves can, as a standard action, cast any of the following spells..."

UMD:
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.

1. Can just anyone use these gloves? I assume "No." Since the item description says you are casting the spell, I assume it works as a Spell Trigger Item, and you have to have the particular spell on your spell list, or that you have to use UMD.

2. Does this require a UMD check if you do not have the cure/breath spell on your list of spells known currently?
a. Does a level 1 oracle need to make a UMD check for Breath of Life?
"No."
b. Does a level 10 oracle need to make a UMD check for Breath of Life if she did not learn BoL at level 10?
"No."

3. Does this require a UMD check if you do not have the particular cure/breath spell on your list of spells available at all?
a. Does a level 1 fighter or a level 20 sorceress need to make a UMD check for the gloves?
"Yes."

4. If so, what's the DC of the UMD check?
a. Activate Blindly: 25 [mishap occurs on a 15 or less; a 16-24 is just a wasted standard action]

OR

b. Emulate a class feature [cleric or oracle casting]: UMD result minus 20 is your class level
DC would be 29 to emulate a 9th level cleric to cast the 5th level spell BoL.
DC would be 30 to emulate a 10th level oracle to cast the 5th level spell BoL.

AND/OR

c. Emulate an ability score: UMD result minus 15
The minimum Wisdom score needed to cast a cleric, druid, or ranger spell is 10 + the spell’s level.
To learn or cast a spell, an oracle must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

Minimum Wisdom or Charisma for the BoL = 15
DC would be 30 to emulate a 15 Wisdom to cast a 5th level cleric spell as a cleric [if you don't already have 15 Wisdom].
DC would be 30 to emulate a 15 Charisma to cast a 5th level cleric spell as an oracle [if you don't already have 15 Charisma].

OVERALL:
For the Breath of Life spell:

Anyone with BoL on [any of] their class spell list[s] can successfully activate the BoL even at 1st level.

Anyone else can try UMD to activate blindly at DC 25, but suffers a mishap on a result of 15 or less, where the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you, also with a 1 day lockout happening on a natural 1 [assuming the 1 fails]

Anyone else with 15 Wisdom or 15 Charisma could instead try to use BoL with a UMD of DC 29 [using Wisdom for level 5 cleric casting] or 30 [using Charisma for level 5 oracle casting] with a 1 day lockout only happening on a natural 1 [assuming the 1 fails].

Anyone else with 14 or less Wisdom and 14 or less Charisma could instead try to:
use BoL with a UMD of DC 29 [using Wisdom for level 5 cleric casting] or 30 [using Charisma for level 5 oracle casting] with a 1 day lockout only happening on a natural 1 [assuming the 1 fails] AND
emulate 15 Wisdom or Charisma with a separate DC 30 roll with a 1 day lockout only happening on a natural 1 [assuming the 1 fails]

For the Cure spells:
Since a Cleric/Oracle/Witch has Cure Light Wounds up to Cure Critical Wounds on their list and can cast via Wisdom/Charisma/Intelligence, then anyone can use Wisdom [14 for CCW], Charisma [14 for CCW], or Intelligence [15 for CCW since that's a level 5 Witch spell] to cast those, without having to emulate an ability score. Non-casters, wizards, and sorcerers would still need to emulate a Cleric/Oracle/Witch class though, with a 1 day lockout only happening on a natural 1 [assuming the 1 fails].

DC would be 21 to emulate a 1st level Cleric/Oracle/Witch to cast the 1st level spell CLW.
...
DC would be 27 to emulate a 7th level cleric to cast the 4th level cleric spell CCW.
DC would be 28 to emulate a 8th level oracle to cast the 4th level oracle spell CCW.
DC would be 29 to emulate a 9th level witch to cast the 5th level witch spell CCW.


If all of this is correct, my sorceress with a 19 for UMD [that can auto-activate any wand] still has to roll an 11 on the d20 to make the Breath of Life function with the gloves.

Emulate a class feature [cleric or oracle casting]: UMD result minus 20 is your class level
DC would be 30 to emulate a 10th level oracle to cast the 5th level spell BoL.

So, 50% of the time I won't be able to save a companion with BoL, despite a pretty good UMD score, with 4,500 gold and my glove slot being used for this?

These sure looked better when I thought I could use them like applying a balm to someone...

They make a lot more sense for a Cleric/Oracle/Shaman, since they will actually have Breath of Life on their list, and need no UMD.


First Aid Gloves

I would have assumed that this wasn't like a wand or staff; anyone can use it.

Quote:
If the activation is on command or if no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

Note that wands specifically say they are Spell Trigger items.

Quote:
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

And Wondrous items do not.

Quote:
Wondrous items are usually use-activated or activated by a command word, but details vary from item to item.

Grand Lodge

It doesn't say it's a spell trigger item so it's not. Anyone can use them to cast those spells.

Compare these to prayer beads for a good example of how items that are meant to only be usable as spell trigger or by certain classes call it out.

First-aid Gloves are simply a use activated magic item.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Flagged for the Rules Questions Forum.


...the worship is empowering!


Well, I have had 3 PFS GMs at my local lodge saying that you need to use UMD on these gloves. And of course there is the whole blurring of arcane vs. divine casting in PFS that makes it so lots of things are easier to cast than would be in RAW. Note: I am all for this. It makes the game more fun when there are interesting and helpful items that people besides just 3 classes can use.

Sczarni

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Those three PFS GMs are wrong. The gloves are magic items, but not spell trigger nor spell completion. They do not require any for of UMD check. Rulings like that are indicative of GMs that like to see PCs die or who run their games GM vs PC rather than as a collaborative storyteller.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Semantic Deity wrote:
...the worship is empowering!

You could certainly look at it that way. Many people do, and it's hard to change deep seeded beliefs.

OR

You could look at it as an attempt to genuinely help the original poster find the answer they're seeking.

There is a reason we have different Forums. Each has a different focus, with a different community with different experiences and expertise.

If you lacerate your arm, you *could* go to your local police department. Many officers are at least trained as EMTs. But you should probably go to the hospital instead, where you can best get the experience and skill sets you probably need.

If you want to report an arson, you *could* go to your local fire department. Their investigators will likely be dispatched to the scene of the crime eventually anyways. But you should probably go to the police department instead.

These Forums are set up similarly.

You *could* ask for advice in the Rules Questions Forum, but it's more likely that someone with a lot of experience building characters or designing character guides will lurk in the Advice Forum.

You *could* ask PFS Questions in the Rules Questions Forum, but it's more likely someone from Campaign Leadership will be lurking in the PFS Forums.

So when someone flags a post to be moved to another Forum, sure, it could be semantic or pedantic. But more than likely it's going to be a gesture to help the original poster get the attention and resources their question deserves.

Wouldn't you want the same thing?


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
... it's hard to change deep seeded beliefs.

shouldn't that be deep-seated beliefs ?

my reference

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SlimGauge wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
... it's hard to change deep seeded beliefs.

shouldn't that be deep-seated beliefs ?

my reference

I meant what I wrote.

"Deep seeded", as in planted deep, and difficult to root out.

Not "deep seated", as in hierarchical, and malleable.

I realize your link espouses a different view.

Liberty's Edge

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Back to the topic at hand, I use to believe that First Aid Gloves were a spell-triggered item and thus could only use effectively if you had the spells on your list or UMD.

My local, 5-star GMs/VO corrected me and advise that the gloves are a magic item and not a spell-triggered item.


Gary Bush wrote:

Back to the topic at hand, I use to believe that First Aid Gloves were a spell-triggered item and thus could only use effectively if you had the spells on your list or UMD.

My local, 5-star GMs/VO corrected me and advise that the gloves are a magic item and not a spell-triggered item.

Hmm, I had always though they were command word activated but digging into it the answer is not quite as clear as I had thought.

Wands and Staves are all spell trigger items.
Scrolls are all spell completion items.

Wondrous items are described as:

Quote:
Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

There is no general rule that if no method is explicitly identified then it is command word or use activated. The magic item chapter gives four different item activation methods. In command word based it says:

Quote:
If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed

The Gloves say:

Quote:
The wearer of a pair of first aid gloves can, as a standard action, cast any of the following spells (caster level 9th)

I could see an argument being made for treating that in a similar way to wand use. The definition of spell trigger is:

Quote:
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know

Not sure I would agree with that argument but it certainly doesn't seem as cut and dried as some might think.

The Exchange

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Yeah, Andreww, I've had that same concern about several items for a long time.

Most commonly, the (Cracked) Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone that so many martials love.

I think it should be spell trigger, but I asked many years ago and got only a "No FAQ required" response. So I don't use it, but I don't think I'm justified in forcing players to use it as spell trigger instead of command word.


Kevin Willis wrote:

Yeah, Andreww, I've had that same concern about several items for a long time.

Most commonly, the (Cracked) Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stone that so many martials love.

I think it should be spell trigger, but I asked many years ago and got only a "No FAQ required" response. So I don't use it, but I don't think I'm justified in forcing players to use it as spell trigger instead of command word.

The issue I often come across with this item is people trying to fill it using a wand. Its based off the ring of spell storing which requires you to actually cast the spell into it or use a scroll.

The Exchange

andreww wrote:
The issue I often come across with this item is people trying to fill it using a wand. Its based off the ring of spell storing which requires you to actually cast the spell into it or use a scroll.

That clearly doesn't work and I don't allow that. Most players get another player to fill it or hire an NPC for 10 gp. It's using the item in general that I have a problem with. As you said, it's based on a ring of spell storing. Which specifically says that it contains spells "that the wearer can cast." Reading the whole text of the ring, it seems way more like spell trigger than command word.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I have never heard of this distinction before, and am having trouble trying to understand it.

What other items fall into this "category"?

Would you include Celestial Armor's ability to cast Fly as being something unattainable by a purely martial character? Why or why not?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kevin Willis wrote:
andreww wrote:
The issue I often come across with this item is people trying to fill it using a wand.
That clearly doesn't work and I don't allow that.

Same, although I certainly encounter enough people that think otherwise.

The Exchange

Nefreet wrote:
I have never heard of this distinction before, and am having trouble trying to understand it.

The distinction is whether the spell effect is cast by the item (command word or use-activated) or if it allows the wielder to cast the spell (spell completion or spell trigger).

It's very murky, and there's no clear dividing line between the two. That's why I had hoped for a FAQ years ago, and why I allow players to use such "grey area" items either way. There's only two items that particularly bother me. The Ring of Spell Storing and its derivative the Vibrant Purple Prism. Because when I read the description of the ring it really, really, reads to me like the wielder is the one casting the spell (which would make it spell trigger).

Quote:
Would you include Celestial Armor's ability to cast Fly as being something unattainable by a purely martial character? Why or why not?

Celestial Armor specifically says "use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Spell Storing armor and weapons, too?

The Exchange

Nefreet wrote:
Spell Storing armor and weapons, too?
spell storing weapons wrote:
...the weapon can immediately cast the spell...
spell storing armor wrote:
...the armor can cast the spell on that creature...

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Hmm.

Grand Lodge

I think we just refer to the general wondrous item rules which say that wondrous are usually command or use-activated. The gloves don't say they're spell trigger or command, so we're left to assume use-activated.

As I mentioned earlier, compare them to prayer beads for how a wondrous item specifies when it differs from the typical rules.


Well, since this item is in the Pathfinder Society Primer, you would think they would have given more thought to the questions that would be asked in PFS. And it says that it allows the wearer to "cast" the spell, which can be interpreted in several different ways.

If writers need a way to be more clear:
Price 4,500 gp; Slot hands; CL 9th; Weight 1 lb.; Aura moderate conjuration; Use: use-activated (vs. command word, spell trigger, spell completion...)

Grand Lodge

Like I said, compare it to prayer beads. Wondrous Items where you're using it as a spelltrigger item to cast the spell call it out as that.


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While I agree entirely that spell storing rings/ioun stones and gloves of first aid are usable by anyone, prayer beads are not a good example - they require a divine caster.

For those who think otherwise... the item is saying "You can cast...".

Secondary evidence: Gloves of First Aid are priced like 2 potions of breath of life (were such possible), just like a necklace of fireballs is priced.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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It's a wondrous item so I default to use activated unless otherwise specified. As far as I know thats how the PFS GMs adjacent to my region rule it as well. It's also priced like a Use Activated item.


Examples:
Gelugon Plate: "A Hellknight (or Hellknight signifer with heavy armor proficiency) wearing this armor can cast wall of ice three times per day."
Ghost Mirror Armor: The wearer of ghost mirror armor can cast deathwatch (caster level 1st) three times per day.
Icon of Order (shield): Once per day, the wielder can cast protection from chaos as a swift action.
Inheritor's Breastplate: The wearer can cast bless weapon and remove fear each once per day.
Legion Armor: the wearer of a suit of legion armor can cast the spell spiritual allyAPG with a duration of 1 minute.

That's just the armor...


Plenty of examples of the language with no indication (and some counter-indication) that it requires a spellcaster. However, I will agree that most of the core rulebook items use language like this:

Boots of Teleportation: When scrutinized closely, parts of these light gray boots appear to fade in and out of existence. Any character wearing this footwear may teleport three times per day, exactly as if she had cast the teleport spell.


That is nicely clear verbiage on the Boots of Teleportation; hopefully future item descriptions could leverage that.

If I get questions on these from any GMs, I shall refer them to this thread if they don't buy my contention (that the gloves just activate for your standard action without UMD required) on its own.

Thanks to all who contributed!

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