Monsters overcoming DR with Natural Weapons based on Hit Dice


Rules Questions


A friend of mine keeps saying monsters bypass DR based on hit dice and I cant seem to find a ruling on that. I am wondering if any of you fine nerds know definitively this answer.


No such rule in Pathfinder. There may have been one in old editions D&D?

Instead there is this:

Quote:
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

And:

Quote:
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.


3.5 had a rule for higher HD monsters bypassing DR, similiar to how enough plusses on a magic weapon bypass other DR types. Pathfinder did not retain this rule.


Java Man wrote:
3.5 had a rule for higher HD monsters bypassing DR, similiar to how enough plusses on a magic weapon bypass other DR types. Pathfinder did not retain this rule.

Got a source for that? Because I don't recall that being in 3.5 at all. As far as I am aware, the only difference between 3.5 damage reduction and Pathfinder damage reduction is the ability for higher enhancement bonus to overcome more types of damage reduction.


Java Man wrote:
3.5 had a rule for higher HD monsters bypassing DR, similiar to how enough plusses on a magic weapon bypass other DR types. Pathfinder did not retain this rule.

This was never a rule.


After a quick search, and facial egg removal, I admit error. I must be blurring a 1st ed or houserule or splat book option or hallucination of some kind.

Scarab Sages

It's a 1st Edition rule.

Back then, there was no DR; you either had the plusses to affect a target, or you did a big fat zero.

The rule prevented large, powerful creatures being completely owned at no risk, by something like a werewolf.


Thanks for the reminder, been a generation or so since I've even looked at those rules.

Sczarni

I remember such a rule as well, but cannot recall which system had it.

It must have been 3.x, because DR didn't exist as we know it before then.


The first edition rule was something like magical creatures could affect other magical creatures but where otherwise immune if you didn't have a magical weapon with a high enough plus. In 2nd I think they got more specific where monsters needed to be of similar + magic to hit monsters with higher damage immunity (It wasn't DR until 3rd edition) I'm pretty sure that is all accurate.

Sczarni

Just checked. It was 2nd Ed AD&D.


Was that to get past the immunity they had? I was pretty sure it wasn't DR until 3rd... I suppose it could of happened in the later part of 2nd and caught me by surprise.


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Text from 2nd edition:

Creature vs. Creature wrote:

One obvious question that arises in the minds of those with a logical bent is "How do other creatures fight those immune monsters?" In the case of monsters, sufficient Hit Dice enable them to attack immune creatures as if they were fighting with magical weapons. Table 48 lists various numbers of Hit Dice and their magical weapon equivalents.

These Hit Dice equivalents apply only to monsters. Player characters and NPCs cannot benefit from this.
Table 48: Hit Dice Vs. Immunity wrote:

Hit Dice -- Hits creatures requiring

4+1 or more -- +1 weapon
6+2 or more -- +2 weapon
8+3 or more -- +3 weapon
10+4 or more -- +4 weapon

/cevah

Scarab Sages

Table 48: Hit Dice Vs. Immunity wrote:

Hit Dice -- Hits creatures requiring

4+1 or more -- +1 weapon
6+2 or more -- +2 weapon
8+3 or more -- +3 weapon
10+4 or more -- +4 weapon

For anyone unfamiliar with 1st and 2nd Edition, those figures in the Hit Dice refer to the old way of describing creatures, as having a certain number of d8s, plus (sometimes) some extra hitpoints.

Most creatures didn't have a listed Con score, so the extra hps was intended to give them a leg up.
An ogre was 'Hit Dice: 4+1', meaning 4d8+1, or 5-33 hp.
A troll was 'Hit Dice: 6+3', ie 9-49 hp.

So having a friendly ogre on call could be a lifesaver.

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