DPR Level 4: Investigator or Inquisitor

[vadda]

Hi! For a 4th Level PvP oneshot I am looking for a dpr max build. I can choose between Investigator and Inquisitor (Asmodeus) but since I have not played either yet I need some Help.

[Critical Assessment]

I personally like the inquisitor best with studied strike you get an extra bonus die so I’d do that one

[Saldiven]

All other things the same, I think the Investigator would have a higher DPR at lvl 4 because Studied Combat will give a slightly higher bonus to hit and damage than what the Inquisitor can get (Judgment will only give a bonus to either to hit or to damage, not both, at lvl 4, and if you go Sanctified Slayer, his Studied Target bonus will only be +1).

However, once you get to lvl 5, the Inquisitor should jump to the front (at least for important combats) because of Bane.

[Claxon]

Inquisitor is amazing once it gets access to bane.

But if you're going to remain at level 4 the whole way the Investigator might be a bit better.

It will also depend if you're trying to do melee, ranged, or magical focus. (Hint: Neither character is great at offensive magic)

[Gray Warden]

Divine Favour + Fate's Favored make the Inquisitor better from level 1 to 3. At 4th level, it offsets the bonus the Investigator gets from Studied Combat, and while the Investigator gets Alchemical Allocation which might allow him to get +2 to hit with a high CL potion of Heroism (if the GM allows them), the Inquisitor also gets additional damage bonuses from Judgments, Precise Strike (if you fight with allies) and/or Studied Combat (if Sanctified Slayer), and from spells such as Spiritual Weapon.

The difference is even higher if you're looking for a ranged build, since the Inquisitor is already proficient with Longbows. Not to mention that just the next level, the Inquisitor will get Bane.

In conclusion, Inquisitor is better DPR wise.

However, if you want the best half-caster DPR build for PvP, I suggest Warpriest. Free Weapon Focus, +1 extra feat at 3rd level, and most importantly swift-action self buff and heal.

[Saldiven]

Inquisitor cannot have both Judgments and Studied Target, and Studied Strike is an Investigator class ability, not Inquisitor/Sanctified Slayer.

The Sanctified Slayer gets a die of Sneak Attack, but that is balanced out by the Studied Strike the Investigator gets that is also 1d6.

A base Inquisitor can have one Judgment. Either +1 to hit or +2 to damage at 4th level (there are other options, but they do not contribute to DPR). He can do that twice per day. A Sanctified Slayer loses Judgment, but replaces it with Studied Target, which would be at +1 to hit and damage at 4th level; it doesn't go to +2 until BAB 5 at 7th level.

The Investigator's Studied Combat at 4th level is a +2 to hit and damage.

So, for straight combat related class abilities at 4th level, the Investigator will have a better bonus to hit and at least as good of a bonus to damage.

So, the difference comes down to buff spells. Both characters will have (3 + bonus) first level spells per day. The most likely buff the Inquisitor will take will be Divine Favor (if you take Fates Favored, this gives +2 to hit and damage, otherwise +1). There are other first level buff spells for the Inquisitor, but this is the best one from a straight DPR standpoint. The Investigator's best DPR combat buff is probably Enlarge Person. This is a wash on to-hit (-1 for size but +1 for Strength increase), and at least a +2 on damage (+1 for Strength increase plus the increased damage dice for the weapon). It also grants reach, which has it's own benefits, especially if you're already using a reach weapon. Enlarge Person does have a full round casting time, but that's not super significant as it really only removes a single move action from the first round of combat. It also has a longer duration, meaning it's easier to cast it before combat begins and have it last the entire combat.

I'm going to run some numbers on a DPR calculator for both. I'm going to assume both have an 18 Strength and are using a two handed weapon; I'll use a Great Sword for simplicity. I'll assume both are using Power Attack and that they both have the same first level feat that doesn't directly contribute to combat damage (if they're identical, then the difference would come out in the wash, anyway). Gimme a few, and I'll post results.

[Grandlounge]

It's pvp so you have to run them against one an other. I would be playing a str investigator. With medium armor, power attack, as heroism, mutagen, barkskin and a protector familair and potential shield. I think in a duel the investigator may have the higher AC

I think it's always a standard to use extracts.

[Gray Warden]

Those were independent options, it doesn't mean you can use them all at the same time. You get bonus to damage from [Judgment] / [Studied Combat] / [Precise Strike (which I got confused and called Studied Strike), in case it's a team-based PvP].

Plus, I forgot that Investigators can use Mutagens, which most probably brings the Investigator ahead.

I'd include also Spiritual Weapon in the DPR calculation.

[Saldiven]

***Investigator 18 str with Great Sword using Studied Combat and Studied Strike with Power Attack active against AC 17 (standard CR 4 target number)

DPR = 13.98

Same Investigator with Enlarge Person active:

DPR = 14.64

***Inquisitor/Sanctified Slayer 18 str with Great Sword using Studied Target and Power Attack against AC 17.

DPR = 10.29

Same Inquisitor in a position to use Sneak Attack.

DPR = 12.21

Same Inquisitor with Divine Favor/Fates Favored without Sneak Attack.

DPR = 13.59

Same Inquisitor with Divine Favor/Fates Favored with Sneak Attack

DPR = 15.86

***Inquisitor 18 str with Great Sword using damage bonus Judgment and Power Attack against AC 17.

DPR = 9.90

Same Inquisitor with Divine Favor/Fates Favored.

DPR = 13.20

Inquisitor 18 str with Great Sword using to hit bonus Judgment and Power Attack against AC 17.

DPR = 9.68

Same Inquisitor with Divine Favor/Fates Favored.

DPR = 12.16

So, a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor with an active Divine Favor/Fates Favored combination who is in position to Sneak Attack will have the highest DPR.

In all other cases, the Investigator's DPR is higher.

There are niche cases. In situations where the target is immune to precision damage, Studied Strike cannot be used, so the Inquisitor will step ahead.

At fifth level, the Inquisitor jumps out pretty significantly on rounds where Bane is active. The Investigator's DPR doesn't change at all (unless you take a Talent that affects DPR), while the buffed, Sneak Attacking Sanctified Slayer above has the DPR go from 15.86 to 24.3 while Bane is active.

[Groundhog]

Although keep in mind that you're probably using either a falchion, a greataxe or a simple weapon due to proficiency.

[PhD. Okkam]

And if you add a sacred huntmaster to the comparison?

[Grandlounge]

PhD. Okkam wrote:

And if you add a sacred huntmaster to the comparison?

You lose accuracy and damage for the Animal. Tiger is +8 to attack with weapon finesse and weapon focus. The damage is 1d6+2, 1d4+2, 1d4+2.

The investigators AC is anywhere between. 18 and 27 so it would range from very good to virtually useless.

[Syries]

Investigators have access to Mutagen at level 3, suddenly putting them at a potential 22 or even 24 Str or Dex at level 4. You also have enough feats at this time(As a human) for slashing/fencing grace, so a Dex build with mutagen is viable, though at level 4 you're getting less DPR but more AC. They also have access to Alter Self and Enlarge/Reduce person, Barkskin, False Life, and Shield for both defensive and offensive extracts.

I'll bet on Investigator over Inquisitor any day.

[Claxon]

I don't know about low levels that well, because I typically do comparisons around level 10/11/12.

Inquisitors around that point are amazing. They've got Greater Bane at level 12, which is an amazing 4d6 damage bonus. I find Inquisitors actually do best as archers, rather than melee characters because more attacks mean more chances to use their nice damage bonuses.

At level 11, your Inquisitor gets Stalwart which is an amazing defensive ability. Oh, your spell has a partial affect on a successful save? Not anymore. It's evasion, but for the spells that are usually far scarier than HP damage.

By level 10 you've gotten both your attack and damage bonuses from Judgments and you're using Divine Favor.

But this is all much higher level. The Inquisitor doesn't get a lot of it's fun fiddly bits until then, and I think the Sanctified slayer and trying to rely on sneak attack isn't a lot of fun.

If you're just looking for low level melee power, the Investigator is probably going to offer more.

[Saldiven]

Syries wrote:

Investigators have access to Mutagen at level 3, suddenly putting them at a potential 22 or even 24 Str or Dex at level 4. You also have enough feats at this time(As a human) for slashing/fencing grace, so a Dex build with mutagen is viable, though at level 4 you're getting less DPR but more AC. They also have access to Alter Self and Enlarge/Reduce person, Barkskin, False Life, and Shield for both defensive and offensive extracts.

I'll bet on Investigator over Inquisitor any day.

If the character does take Mutagen for their 3rd level Talent, that would push the Investigator further into the lead at lvl 4. At least for the 40 minutes of in-game-time that the Mutagen would be active.

Though, I wonder how that works, or if it's been FAQ'd or given an errata. The Investigator talent where he can supposedly take Mutagen is Alchemist Discovery. That Talent states, "The investigator can select one of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagen, and poison conversion. When selecting an alchemist discovery, he must be of a high enough level to qualify for that discovery, using his investigator level as his alchemist level to determine if he qualifies. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time grants a new alchemist discovery."

The problem is that Mutagen is not an Alchemist Discovery. It's a base Alchemist class ability.

[Grandlounge]

Claxon wrote:

I don't know about low levels that well, because I typically do comparisons around level 10/11/12.

Inquisitors around that point are amazing. They've got Greater Bane at level 12, which is an amazing 4d6 damage bonus. I find Inquisitors actually do best as archers, rather than melee characters because more attacks mean more chances to use their nice damage bonuses.

At level 11, your Inquisitor gets Stalwart which is an amazing defensive ability. Oh, your spell has a partial affect on a successful save? Not anymore. It's evasion, but for the spells that are usually far scarier than HP damage.

By level 10 you've gotten both your attack and damage bonuses from Judgments and you're using Divine Favor.

But this is all much higher level. The Inquisitor doesn't get a lot of it's fun fiddly bits until then, and I think the Sanctified slayer and trying to rely on sneak attack isn't a lot of fun.

If you're just looking for low level melee power, the Investigator is probably going to offer more.

If you interested I did a build out like in the best ranged/archer thread, which was your thread I believe, from a while back for the investigator follow as closely as I could. You basically need 3 extra feats which really hurts the build.

base stats
16/18+2+1+1/7/14/7/7
total stats with items
18/26/7/14/7/7
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 str and dex
ioun stone Opalescent white pyramid weapon focus +1 insight

pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot

Mutagen and Heroism on, study each round using, PBS is not factored in.
+25/+25/+20 bow (1d8+17)
After the first round add 4d6 total to the damage
R1) 88.4
R2 onward) 102.4
If like the inquisitor the first round is used for a buff (haste)
R1) Haste
R2 for all consecutive rounds) 120.8

[Ferious Thune]

There is also an alchemist discovery called Mutagen. It's for archetypes that give up that class feature.

Also, you can brew a second Mutagen if you spend 1 hour doing so. So if it's a tournament type setup with time in between fights, you'd be able to use Mutagen for all of them. Recovering other extracts is less likely, unless you invest heavily in boro beads. You wouldn't be able to take Inspired Alchemy until 5th without retraining to help with that.

[Syries]

Saldiven wrote:

Syries wrote:

Investigators have access to Mutagen at level 3, suddenly putting them at a potential 22 or even 24 Str or Dex at level 4. You also have enough feats at this time(As a human) for slashing/fencing grace, so a Dex build with mutagen is viable, though at level 4 you're getting less DPR but more AC. They also have access to Alter Self and Enlarge/Reduce person, Barkskin, False Life, and Shield for both defensive and offensive extracts.

I'll bet on Investigator over Inquisitor any day.

If the character does take Mutagen for their 3rd level Talent, that would push the Investigator further into the lead at lvl 4. At least for the 40 minutes of in-game-time that the Mutagen would be active.

Though, I wonder how that works, or if it's been FAQ'd or given an errata. The Investigator talent where he can supposedly take Mutagen is Alchemist Discovery. That Talent states, "The investigator can select one of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagen, and poison conversion. When selecting an alchemist discovery, he must be of a high enough level to qualify for that discovery, using his investigator level as his alchemist level to determine if he qualifies. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time grants a new alchemist discovery."

The problem is that Mutagen is not an Alchemist Discovery. It's a base Alchemist class ability.

As Furious Thune states, Mutagen actually is a discovery. If you look at the Iconic Investigator, it's the first discovery he takes. Mutagen is one of the best talents a combat investigator can get, alongside the swift action study target. It pushes you ahead of nearly every other class save for Barbarian in terms of physical stats.