Caster Cleric(Theologian) and Caster Druid(Storm Druid)


Im interested in pursuing both classes and the Archetypes However, I dont have a lot of experience as dedicated Cleric/Druid casters as Im mostly familiar with 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons. There were no domains, Clerics had more stacking buffs, and Druids had fixed statistics in animal forms.

Both the Theologian and Storm Druid improve domain spell usage but go about it only superficially similar.

For the Theologian Cleric you basically turn your domain spells into regular spells, so say "hello" to Arcane Clerics. You lose one domain but if you pick the right one it can be worth it. Fire Domain can grant Fireball, which is very useful by itself and customization with metamagic to make a Blaster Cleric, and its Ash Subdomain gives Disintegrate at spell tier 7. You sacrifice little.

The Storm Druid loses Animal Companion as an option, no Natures Ally as Spontaneous spell and is limited is to just 2 domain choices, but they do become Spontaneous. This is much more tricky as the Weather and AIR domain arent great for blasting and dont have as many Arcane Spells. I can theorize its more about have 1-2 spontaneous spells available just in case you need spells such as Obscuring Mist without preparing. You sacrifice a lot.

So how accurate is that and how do I use them properly? The Storm Druid is the real stumper.

Sovereign Court

Taking a quick look at the classes, a Storm Druid seems like it would be most effective in a game where wilderness survival (especially while on a ship) would be paramount. Perhaps in other settings as well, but anywhere that weather is going to be harsh, being able to control it at a moment's notice is where I see the archetype shining. As far as blasting with it, I don't see anything that would make it better than a regular druid.

On the other hand, the Theologian seems like it could be a fun way to let the cleric specialize in anything a domain allows it to. The domain choice here is clearly super important and will define the rest of your build. As a blaster, I see this working alright. IMO, the majority of blasting power comes from feats/traits. This let's you apply intensify (a commonly used metamagic feat for blasting) for free, which is really nice, both in terms of efficiency in managing spell slots, but also in relieving some of the burden on your limited amount of feats.

While I don't think either is going to be the best blaster, I could certainly see either being effective at it, but with the Theologian performing better in that role.

The Druid has far more Martial Archetypes than magical ones. Its easy to have a Goliath Druid, Lion Shaman, or Nature Fang using magic to for summoning, crowd control, & buffs and physical attacks together.

Caster archetypes are harder to find. Domains are more useful if you could learn non-Druid spells like Haste, Fireball, Hold Monster, but Domain spells can normally only be used in that one slot per tier. Storm Druid should make domains much more useful, but the selection options are too small.

Grand Lodge

The druid spell list is already a highly competent blasting list. Cloud gives you sold fog which is a decent choice. Weather has some blading and control options. Elemental spell and dazing will round out the build along side spell focuses and maximize/empowered.

Maybe you want to look at fey speaker or try to pick up Fey Spell Lore and/or the good specific Shade of the Uskwood.

As for the clerics ash domain is a good one. Same feats as above. It might be worth dipping if your serious about blaster (sorcerer crossblooded, I'm sure you know the dips).

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Besides Fire Storm and Stormbolt I dont know of any decent Druid damage spells, and thet are way up at spell tier 8. Everything below that gains about +1 damage per Druid level, or like Call Lightning requires concentration over multiple turns to do light damage.

Theres nothing on the list comparable to Fireball, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Haste, etc.

Druid does not have the best spell list.

ChaosTicker wrote:
Caster archetypes are harder to find.

Actually, nature fang works great for a caster druid. Why? Well, because your studied target bonus applies to the DC of all your druid class abilities - which happens to include your spells.

You could always combine this with a domain if you want to grab a few more blasting spells (Ash subdomain is available to druids as well), but you'd probably be better off just grabbing an animal companion and relying on your standard druid spells for blasting.

Honestly, druids have a pretty decent selection to start with. At level 1 you've already got produce flame, snowball, and burning disarm. By level 3 you can start tossing around flaming spheres or aggressive thunderclouds, and by level 5 you'll be dominating the battlefield with ice spears or aqueous orbs. Grab Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter for your favorite spell and slap the Dazing Spell metamagic on as soon as you can afford it, and nothing will stand in your way.

Oh, and fun fact: if you use your animal companion as a mount, you can still move around while directing an ongoing spell like aggressive thundercloud or aqueous orb.

As for your slayer talents, you can use those to pick up some nice utility and survivability boosts. Grab a defensive ranger combat style like weapon and shield (for Shield Focus/Saving Shield/Greater Shield Focus), or maybe even faithful of sarenrae (for Improved Initiative/Wind Stance/Nimble Moves). Then you can take talents like combat trick for a free combat feat, favored terrain for a nice bonus on Perception, Stealth, and initiative, or maybe even blood reader for a bit more efficiency in your blasting. At 12th level some really great options open up, like evasion, hide in plain sight, or any feat of your choice.

Grand Lodge

Produce flame, pale flame and frost bite are +1 per level but offer round after round of attacks. Flame balderdash and gozerah's trident. Snowball.

Burst of radiance against evil creatures. Agressive thunder cloud, stone call, flaming sphere, fridges touch, frost fall rime, stone call, stone discus.

Air geyser, burst of nettles, flash fire, Ice Spears (these scale very well but at odd intervals), spike growth/thorny entanglement (damage and control).

This is where you get explosion of rot (druid fire fall trades smaller radius for staggered) and ball lighting (great dazing spell).

I will say there is nothing quite as simple as fire ball, but there is a tone there, and as prepared caster scaling matters less becuase you just stop using a spell when it stops scaling. If you are stacking traits to decrease meta magic costs it take 2 level more to get but explosive rot has types damage.

It is also intresting to watch how empowered out preform maximize on spells with static modifies like pale flame.

For a Blaster Druid, I’d recommend looking at the Lightning apocryphal subdomain. It’s very much about piling on damage, even endangering your character to do so.

Grand Lodge

ChaosTicket wrote:

Theres nothing on the list comparable to Fireball, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Haste, etc.

Druid does not have the best spell list.

I would implore you to not use this as your rationale not because it is wrong, it's not, but because it pointless. There can by definition only be one best spell list. If a class got published that had the wizard spell list - any one spell it would be the second best spell list but it would not be the best.

Of the spells you listed only haste is a really powerful spell others require builds to make them good. Most control or save or die spell compare favorably to the spells listed. Haste an anomaly there are few spells published that come close to matching it's power relative to spell level.

I have trouble with Divine Casters. It sounds awesome to have tier 9 casting with armor and melee, but there arent many obvious powerful spells.

I can go over a lot of Arcane spells as they have very clear effects. Fewer Cleric are as obvious and Druid spells are outright situational.

Buff spells exist and using them for crafting is very useful, but they often dont stack or grow, so using Bull's Strength after everyone has a Belt of Strength is just a +2 strength bonus.
Shillelagh, weapon buff, is very useful early on but obsolete when you start getting better weapons.

Entangle, crowd control outdoors, is very useful if you are in the right place.

Barkskin, defense buff, is useful when you are in wild shape.

Ironskin, defense buff, is a stronger, shorter duration Barkskin.

Sheet Lightning, medium range crow control, is bad on damage, but a middle range area Dazing spell can be useful.

Flame Strike, medium range damage, is a tier 4 spell. It a worse form of Fireball but it still scales.

Dispel Magic, medium range debuff, is just useful in general.

So Im taking that the Druid isnt really good as a serious caster?

I can see it being solid melee, as that is more about equipment, stats, and using the right buffs.

ChaosTicket wrote:
So Im taking that the Druid isnt really good as a serious caster?

Um... no? No, that would be an incorrect conclusion to take away from this thread.

A 7th level druid can soar above the battlefield on their roc or dire bat companion while tossing around a DC 21-23 dazing aqueous orb that can damage and incapacitate multiple enemies per round for the entire fight, with only a Reflex save and no SR to avoid it. Then they follow up with any of these other spells that have been mentioned while the rest of the party mops up. That's about as serious of a caster as any game can handle.

Druids are spectacular casters. I'll point you towards Treantmonk's Guide, since it's the one I read back in the day, it's core only but even with nought but the core rulebook a druid is a tier one caster. KYMA/edit

Their spontaneous summons are really the best part of the class, in my humble opinion that is better and righter than any other, less humble opinions, as summons are powerful and versatile and useful in any situation, so druids don't have to deal with the biggest weakness of prepared casters, that is, being prepared.

That they can go toe to toe with the best of them and are harder to grapplekill than a wizard, well, that's just icing on the cake.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

For either damage oriented build, numbers suggest it might behoove you to dip 1 level in cross blooded sorcerer orc/draconic. This adds +2 damage per damage die used, but destroys almost any character flavor. Though you should focus on a certain element in either case.

A fire focused Cleric the the 1 lvl dip into sorc could apply that extra damage to a flame strike as well.

Druid a fantastic caster but storm druid isn't their best casting archetype. Menhir Savant is much better and spontaneous SNA has more value than a storm druids domain casting

Meanwhile Theologian is a huge improvement for most caster clerics. I don't like caster clerics normally but Theologian really adds some nice spells

Druids already have spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. So I dont know why the Menhir Savant is useful when its abilities are pretty random.

Nature Fang is questionable as while Slayer talents are useful losing Wild Shape entirely is a much larger drawback.

ChaosTicket wrote:

Druids already have spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally. So I dont know why the Menhir Savant is useful when its abilities are pretty random.

Nature Fang is questionable as while Slayer talents are useful losing Wild Shape entirely is a much larger drawback.

I'm playing a storm druid now and would prefer spontaneous SNA rather than the domain spells. That's what I was trying to say

Menhir Savant is good because it trades up or laterally across the board. Specifically for casters it gives Place Magic which is small but very nice to have.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Yeah, Storm Druids can blast with Call Lightning and as someone mentioned the Lightning Sub-Domain is also pretty great. Go a form with flight and call down the pain from above.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Nature Fang is questionable as while Slayer talents are useful losing Wild Shape entirely is a much larger drawback.

Don't get me wrong, wild shape is all sorts of lovely, but it is a lot easier to justify giving it up on a dedicated caster than on someone built for melee combat. An 8th level or higher casting druid is best off using it to what, turn into a bat for flight, blindsense, and the +8 AC bonus? You can get the first two from your animal companion, and the third is somewhat offset by the lost AC bonus from armor. Not to mention your inability to use most activated magic items, and the fact that you've got to spend your 5th level feat on Natural Spell. Compare that to getting Improved Initiative, Wind Stance, and the combat feat of your choice, plus whatever feat you'd like instead of Natural Spell. Oh, and don't forget the ability to get a scaling bonus to your spell DCs against any one target as a move or a swift action as often as you want.

It's definitely a tradeoff, but one that could certainly be worth making for some characters.

I'm now really interested in making a Dark Souls-esque Lightning Domain Theologian Cleric with Elemental Channel. Probably use a Long Spear or something, Elemental Channel to buff your weapon with "Lightning Blade", Lightning Arc for Lightning Spear, Lightning Bolt for Sunlight Spear... This could be fun.

It would be a very MAD character though. Would need Wisdom for spellcasting, Strength to hit and damage, Charisma for more Elemental Channels, and Con to not-be-dead.

Or just make an Air Kineticist with Electric Blast for melee and ranged attacks. Dexterity and Stamina are all you need.

The Druid really lacks the raw power to be a Blaster. Flame Strike and Fire Storm some of the few unambiguously powerful damage spells a Druid can learn.

Call Lightning does 3d6 damage per turn if you continuously activate it. Its nowhere near the quality of Fireball and its less than what an Archer can do with a Longbow at that level. It doesnt scale in damage, hit multiple enemies, and requires to you focus on using it rather than being "fire-and-forget"

The Lightning subdomain cannot be taken by the Storm Druid as far as I know. It would be probably the best as while Lightning Bolt isnt as good as Fireball its still a long range, multi-target, and scaling damage spell.

You are, of course, correct. Druids aren't very good at using their limited spell slots to do instantaneous damage. Wizards lack the raw power to be blasters too, you know. The raw staying power. You'll do a lot more damage with a summon spell than you will with a lightning bolt or a fireball. Or, Cthulhu forbid, a flamestrike. I don't think that blasting is really worth a caster's time.

Of course, there is no objective right or wrong way to play; as the sages say, whatever floats your goat. My goat floats with wild shape and airwalk, but there are other goat-floating strategies. But if you want to play a blaster caster . . . yeah, the druid might not be the best choice for you. You might be better off playing a sorcerer, or a kineticist. But if you are more interested in having HP damage in your toolbox than in the feel of blasting, druid is one of the best options around. Don't forget, it takes very little investment for a druid to be at least competent at eating faces, and a competent face eater will do more damage than all but the most gimmicked blaster casters.

And all this is not counting the animal companion. A core only AC is probably stronger than a core only fighter for most of the game. Just straight up stronger. Fighters have gotten better since then, but the lion companion hasn't gotten any worse.

the Druid could really use Arcane Spells for buffs at least.

Mage Armor and Shield are tier 1 spells and for the Druid even more useful than Barkskin by quite a bit.
Blur and Mirror Image are tier 2
Haste and Fly are tier 3.

Carrying a number of wands and having points in Use magic Device, or easier just put 1 level into Wizard, and you have access to the buff spells the Druid is missing.

I dont know if any Druid Archetypes are that useful as they gain small bonuses towards specialization for huge drawbacks.

Cleric Archetypes are more moderate. Theologian is okay if you pick a Domain that gives a number of Wizard spells, but for others I would suggest Beast Domain normally. a Cleric is already fairly solid. Having an Animal Companion at your level is easy and Feather subdomain is pretty useful.

I dont know if Cleric or Druid really are capable of being pure casters as the Divine magics are more about being upfront and fighting rather than support. Arcane is the opposite, with better attack spells, general buffs, and crowd control.

ChaosTicket wrote:
I dont know if Cleric or Druid really are capable of being pure casters

You keep saying that. Would you like to see a sample pure caster druid build to help get a feel for what we're talking about?

Why not take the caster Skinshaper or Feyspeaker druid?

Or you could be a naga aspirant and poach from a pretty great selection of arcane spells, not to mention some truly amazing abilities like a charm person gaze attack or at-will detect thoughts.

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ChaosTicket wrote:
The Druid could really use Arcane Spells for buffs at least.

We certainly agree there. Of course the druid could use a better spell list. Of course if the druid had a better spell list it would be a stronger class. The same thing goes for the witch. Witches could certainly make use of a better spell list. And while the classes aren't perfectly balanced (far from it) I'll go out on a limb and assume you see why giving the hex-abusing witches the same spells as a wizard would be problematic. No one would ever play a wizard. Likewise, the wizard could use a better spell list. At least it could use the Divine Spells for restorative magics at least. And resurrection. But the game isn't designed for one class to be able to do everything (at least until the stupidly high levels). Druids don't have as good spells as wizards. That isn't a claim you'll find anyone make. The strength of the class is not the ability to cast haste. Because they can't. It isn't the ability to cast mirror image. Because they can't. They have different tools that make them a powerful primary caster.

To quote the esteemed Treantmonk:

The Esteemed Treantmonk wrote:

So the obvious question is, "Why not just play a Wizard?". Good question. I would have to say here and now, that spell for spell, I think the Wizard has a superior spell list. However, there is more to spellcasting than just the spell list.

The Druid can expect more spell versatility on his memorization list. The reason is because every spell is in fact 2 spells. You may memorize Sleet Storm as a 3rd level spell. If you are a Wizard, you either cast sleet storm, or you don't. That's pretty much it. For the Druid, that Sleet Storm spell is also a Summon natures ally 3 spell. If an opportunity to use sleet storm does not come up, then the Druid spontaneously converts the spell, and has the always solid option of summoning at hand instead. The Druid has this for an option for all 9 levels of spells (unlike the Cleric). Furthermore, I'll take Summon Nature's Ally over the "Cure" line of spells any day.

The second reason to play a Druid over a Wizard is the Divine Spell mechanics. Most particularly, that the Druid can memorize any spell on his spell list, no spell book required. A Wizard may have more highly rated spells for each spell level, but he doesn't know them all. Instead, the Wizard gets 2 spells per level, plus whatever he can find or buy, and then scribe in his spell book. Not an issue for the Druid, who gets access to every spell on his spell list as soon as the spell level is available.

The third reason is number of castings. A Druid (with a domain) and a Wizard (specialist) should be looking at a very similar number of spells per day. However, the Druid will be using Wildshape as a form of Fly, Water Breathing, Burrowing, Earth glide, natural armor, gaining Darkvision, Low light vision, enhanced speed, etc. This saves spells, by using spell like abilities that are not available to a Wizard instead. This leaves more spells available for casting for the Druid.

If you look beyond casting, there's more:

Saving throws. A Druid will have a significantly higher Fort and Will saving throw, and likely equal Reflex saving throw.

HP: The Druid can expect to have more HP than an equivalent level Wizard

AC: Also likely better with the Druid than the Wizard

I'm not suggesting however, that the Druid Wild Mystic is a superior choice to a Wizard, but instead pointing out it has different strengths. If these strengths appeal to you, then you should consider the Wild Mystic as a real option next time you wish to play a primary caster for your group.

And if those strengths don't appeal to you, than of course you don't have to play one. But from what I've gathered from your posts in this thread, you like the idea of playing a divine caster, but don't see how it works. I'm operating under the assumption that you'd rather learn how it works (so you can play an effective divine caster) than maintain your opinion for the sake of fueling confirmation bias.

ChaosTicket wrote:
Divine magics are more about being upfront and fighting rather than support. Arcane is the opposite, with better attack spells, general buffs, and crowd control.

If this is how you've seen divine casters played, than after a quick run around the internet you should be able to blow your gaming group out of the water.

Before we get started, it's important to note that wizards have more and better spells than clerics or druids, not only for attacking, buffing, and supporting, but also for getting in the other guys face and attacking them. You just don't see them used because wizards have too low BAB to take advantage of them. Wizards just have better spells than clerics or druids. For everything. The strength of the cleric or the druid is not in having better spells than the wizard. They have a few gems, and healing, but there's a reason why the wizard's only class feature is spell casting. The wizard is the undisputed king of spell lists.

The reason why you play a druid is not to have a better spell list then the wizard. The reason you play one is the plethora of benefits touched on in the Treantmonk quote above. That said, here are some of the excellent attack spells, general buffs, and crowd control on the druid list. The best crowd control and damage spell, is of course, Summon Monster or the weaker (but spontaneous) Summon Nature's Ally. But we'll pass over these for now, useful as Nature's Ally is you won't be preparing it, and you want to know what to prepare instead. (If every spell one prepares gets turned into a Nature's Ally, then that speaks poorly of either one's spell selection or one's spell list.)

Now this list is by no means exhaustive, and I haven't really looked at most of the newer options for druids. But it should be enough to show that a druid's list is good for far more than getting in the other guy's face and ripping it off.

1- Entangle, Mudball, Obscuring Mist, Snowball, Thunderstomp
2- Barkskin, Chill/Heat Metal (like acid arrow but better, mostly for interrupting casting), Flaming Sphere, Frostfall, Gust of Wind, Gusting Sphere, Resist Energy, Soften Earth and Stone, Spider Climb
3- Aqueous Orb (my favorite spell in the entire game, bar none), Burst of Nettles (for exactly one level, you can deal more d6s than your caster level AOE), Communal Resist Energy, Mad Monkeys, Mirage, Sleet Storm, Spike Growth, Stone Shape (early for druids), Wind Wall (Level five is such a powerspike for druids.)
4- Air Walk, Ball Lightning, Freedom of Movement Reincarnate, Greater Flaming Sphere, Scrying, Spike Stones (this level of spells is less exciting than most, but Nature's Ally is always great)
5- Animal Growth, Baleful Polymorph, Control Winds, Death Ward (a lifesaver when you need it, and a Summon Ally when you don't), Firesnake, Hungry Earth, Transmute Rock to Mud, Treestride, Wall of Thorns
6- Antilife Shell, Greater Black Tentacles, Flesh to Stone, Greater Dispel Magic, Liveoak, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Spellstaff, Transport Via Plants
7- Changestaff, Creeping Doom, Greater Scrying, Firestorm, Heal, True Seeing (Now you can quicken third level spells, so look at those ones again.)
8- Earthquake, Repel Metal or Stone, Reverse Gravity, Sea Mantle, Stormbolts, Sunburst
9- Polar Midnight, Quickened Baleful Polymorph, Quickened Control Winds, Quickened Wall of Thorns, Summon Nature's Ally 9

I wish you luck in all your future druid endeavors.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The only reason is because Lightning came out after Storm Druid so it isn't included in the text. It is a sub of the two main just like the other choices. This isn't PFS so I believe most GM's would allow it.

Just because a class isn't the top in a role doesn't mean they aren't that role. So if you wanted to Powergame I missed that and yeah Storm Druid is not what you want to go.

The druid works because its balanced with magic, medium bab, medium skills, animal companion, and wild shape. Its minor class features arent much use so those I would trade off.

Cleric has far fewer options to use or lose. I might trade channel energy and one or both domains.

Improving either one seems doomed to failure as to be a better caster access to a larger list of spells is needed.

The Asmodean has it.

But to add on, If you want to be a Caster Druid, you take the Domain option, not Animal Companion, because no matter how powerful an ability the Companion might be, it doesn't empower the schtick you are pursuing, while the Domain does. I would say re: Druid that Animal/Terrain Domains are good area to look to add 'arcane' spells, and you can pick up interesting abilities like Fog/Smoke-sight. (which undercuts part of Storm Lord's schtick but oh well)

Fey Speaker is OK for a skillsy + enchant/illusiony approach, although the +1 spell level adjustment is weak, so this isn't my general recommendation. (archetype doesn't address Domain Spell/Slot, which seems weird to combine with Spontaneous Casting even if not per se impossible... [GM ruling] allowing Domain Spells to be spontaneously cast normally helps the archetype IMHO)

Halcyon Druid (Good-only) is great despite giving up Nature's Bond because they learn 2 arcane spells / spell level (of below top spell level but no spell level adjustment), bonded item for 1 bonus spontaneous spell from ALL effective spell list, Diplo/Knowledge bonus, bonuses vs Evil Outsiders, and "celestial form" despite losing wildshape.

Nature Priest lets you gain access to Deity Domains. Nithveil Adept also does so re: The Eldest although you can also worship the Eldest with the Nature Priest.

Or if none of those is suitable, Menhir Savant is my general go-to option for 'caster druid', with awesome Spirit Sense detect ability, CL boost when you need it, and movement/ethereal utility along with free choice (from druidy stuff) of Domain.

Fey Spell Lore is good feat if you want to have access to 1st-lesser confusion, 2nd—charm person, 3rd—invisibility, 4th—bestow curse, 5th—charm monster, 6th—major curseUM, 7th—cloak of dreamsAPG, 8th—insanity, 9th—irresistible dance.

Quandary wrote:
But to add on, If you want to be a Caster Druid, you take the Domain option, not Animal Companion, because no matter how powerful an ability the Companion might be, it doesn't empower the schtick you are pursuing, while the Domain does.

Animal companion might be worth it if you're going the aggressive thundercloud/aqueous orb route, because being able to spend your move action on controlling a spell while your mount is moving can be pretty great.

Quandary wrote:
The Asmodean has it.

Why thank you.

Quandary wrote:
But to add on, If you want to be a Caster Druid, you take the Domain option, not Animal Companion, because no matter how powerful an ability the Companion might be, it doesn't empower the schtick you are pursuing, while the Domain does.

Hmmmm . . . that is what Treantmonk advises, but I disagreed with him then and I respectfully disagree with you now. Of course, I'll readily admit that I haven't looked in depth at any of the new druid exclusive domains, or any of the newer archetypes or options for the class. So it may be that I'm overlooking something that you see as very obvious, or I'm overlooking some exceedingly powerful spells. If that is the case please correct me.

As a druid the spell you'll find yourself casting most often is Summon Nature's Ally. (At least, that's my experience.) If you were to cast every single spell you had, until you had nothing left but orisons, you'd likely have cast it at least once per spell level. Now I ask you, is the animal companion (no mere beast from the bestiary, but a monster of your own design) stronger than those summoned monsters? Bearing in mind that it lasts indefinitely and you don't have to spend actions summoning it? The answer is, I think, unequivocally yes. (Unless your animal companion is, like, a manta ray.) By my analysis, the animal companion saves you more spells than a domain grants.

But that is my inexpert opinion, based on less than perfect information. I haven't even read the domains to choose from!

Chaos Ticket wrote:
Improving either one seems doomed to failure as to be a better caster access to a larger list of spells is needed.

Well now, that isn't strictly true. Making any class a "better" caster requires only giving them a class feature that increases their caster level by one. Or giving them an extra orison slot. That would be a meager increase indeed, but it does make a caster "better." Pedantry aside, another way to make a class with the druid's spell list a better caster would be to give it the ability to summon spontaneously.

What I tried to make clear in my monster of a post above, is that the druid makes a perfectly good primary spell caster. Arguably a better one. It certainly has an inferior spell list, that isn't arguable. But I'd argue that the druid's other benefits outweigh the slightly inferior spell list. And I won't just argue it; I believe it. (But perhaps that's just because the class meshes with my playstyle better. Someone with more foresight than me might prefer the wizard.)

If the druid had as good a spell list as the wizard, it would be inarguably better. As it is, both are considered by some to be the most powerful class in the entire game. If you want to play a druid, a full casting druid, feel free too. Don't worry that you're playing an nonoptimal character, or worse, one that you can't see how it works at all. (I'm looking at you, shifter.) If you're having a hard time with spell selection, there are guides all over the internet to help you with that. I've even posted a few of my opinions in this thread. (You'll notice that many of them are regularly prepared by wizards, and some of those are early access; the druid list really isn't that much worse than the wizard's.)

But if you're just here because you have some kind of vendetta against druids (I'm with you on clerics. Hate the buggers. Know that they're top-tier; don't care.) and are unwilling to learn that they are, despite your past experiences, pretty good, well, there isn't much I can do. The sad fact is, everyone decides what beliefs they believe in themself.

To tie this back to the OP: Storm Druid is a worse caster than vanilla. Don't take it.

Ill just repeat everything I already said if this keeps going. In both the case of the Druid and Cleric it's hard not to compare them.

As a Druid a priority is covering the flaws with some of its abilities. #1 is getting Armor. Mage Armor wands are very useful. Bracers of armor are also good. Wild enchantments on armor are possible but expensive.

As a warrior-caster the Druid is quite solid. As a full Caster its always going to be compared unfavorably to the Arcane classes.

Cleric is similar, and somewhat worse than the 3.5 because if nerfs to some buff spells.

Not an argument at this point if more dedicated casting on Divine casters as its meant to be a balance between fighting and caster.

Biggest problem is that you still need an Arcane caster for spells you dont have.

Asmodeus' Advocate: At 4th level you've somehow missed the slowing mud spell. I'd usually take it before spike stones.

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