When alignment class features collide


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

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I've got a few questions here.

If you had a vigilante/cleric, how would their dual social/vigilante alignments interact with the cleric's powerful aura? I understand that they could only cast spells with both identities if both are within one step of their deity. But is the aura 'an effect that would change his alignment', altering both to the deity's alignment? Or would it affect only the vigilante's alignment aura? Would both be powerful auras?

Dual Identity (Ex):

Despite being a single person, a vigilante’s dual nature allows him to have two alignments, one for each of his identities. When in an identity, he is treated as having that identity’s alignment for all spells, magic items, and abilities that rely on alignment. For the purpose of meeting a qualification for a feat, class, or any ability, he is only eligible if both of his alignments meet the requirements.

A vigilante’s two alignments cannot be more than one step from each other on a single alignment axis. For example, a vigilante with a lawful neutral social identity could have a vigilante identity that is lawful good, lawful neutral, lawful evil, neutral, neutral good, or neutral evil. If a vigilante is the target of an effect that would change his alignment, it changes both of his alignments to the new alignment.

To really boggle the mind, what about a infiltration inquisitor multi-classed into cleric or vigilante?

Misdirection (Sp):

At 1st level, each day when the infiltrator prepares spells, she may choose an alignment. She detects as that alignment as if she had used misdirection on a creature with that alignment (this does not change any divination results about her other than her alignment).

Would the cleric end up with a powerful aura of whatever flavor the inquisitor chose, or would their deity no longer offer them the option of misleading others as to their deity?

If multiclassed into vigilante, would Misdirection affect both identity alignments? Just the social? Just the vigilante? Could you pick?


There is no rule about not being able to cast if your alignment is off for the cleric. So unless that’s part of the vigilante.........


vhok wrote:
There is no rule about not being able to cast if your alignment is off for the cleric. So unless that’s part of the vigilante.........
Ex-Clerics wrote:
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).
Alignment wrote:
A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis (see Additional Rules).

If you lose your alignment (being within one step), you lose your ability to cast spells. Stated right there on the Cleric page.


To answer Keerawa's question:

Aura (Ex) wrote:
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell for details).

It has nothing to do with your alignment, merely your god's. If either one is outside the effect, whenever you are in that form, you lose your aura. When your alignment is within one step, you have this class feature. So if you are NG and TN and followed a LG god, you'd have a Cleric Aura of LG while in your NG identity, and no cleric aura while in your TN identity, as you'd lose all class features while in it.

As for the Inquisitor, the Misdirection hides your normal aura, including Cleric's (as that alters your aura in a sense). So the Misdirected aura would be the one that shows.

And lastly, so long as you prepare spells with the identity that is within one step. While the Inquisitor would lose spells, it doesn't lose any other class features except Judgement, allowing that to function even when they are counted as an Ex-inquisitor.


No. This is not how it works.

The character is still a cleric, and still has a god, no matter his being a vigilante. So, no matter his alignment, he will sport the powerful cleric aura of his god. Joey is a cleric of Cayden (CG), having a CN alignment normally and a N alignment when acting as The Masked Drunkard. Detecting alignment on him will always show his CG cleric aura.

Also, note that clerics are unable to cast spells opposed to their own or their god's alignment:

Cleric wrote:
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one).

Joey can't cast Lawful or Evil spells, ever, even if he is currently the Masked Drunkard. If the Masked Drunkard had been CE, Joey would ALSO be unable to cast Good spells when acting as him. It is not specified, but it could be assumed that this restriction only applies to his cleric spells.

Liberty's Edge

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Sissyl wrote:
The character is still a cleric, and still has a god, no matter his being a vigilante. So, no matter his alignment, he will sport the powerful cleric aura of his god. Joey is a cleric of Cayden (CG), having a CN alignment normally and a N alignment when acting as The Masked Drunkard. Detecting alignment on him will always show his CG cleric aura.

That would certainly make both the the dual identity and misdirection class features nearly useless for a cleric, paladin, warpriest or antipaladin, given how common alignment detection spells are.

Sissyl wrote:
Also, note that clerics are unable to cast spells opposed to their own or their god's alignment

Actually, the infiltrator inquisitor has a way around that.

Forbidden Lore (Ex) wrote:
While other inquisitors learned to track unbelievers, an infiltrator learns how to cast their spells. An infiltrator can cast spells of an alignment opposed to her or her deity (ignoring the restriction in the Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells class ability).

Liberty's Edge

TrinitysEnd wrote:
And lastly, so long as you prepare spells with the identity that is within one step. While the Inquisitor would lose spells, it doesn't lose any other class features except Judgement, allowing that to function even when they are counted as an Ex-inquisitor.

Interesting point about the relatively mild effect of being an 'ex-inquisitor' while out of alignment bounds for your social identity.


Yes. I would say the cleric aura pretty much shuts down parts of the vigilante class. Can't seem to find anything that says it works differently though.


Sissyl wrote:

No. This is not how it works.

The character is still a cleric, and still has a god, no matter his being a vigilante. So, no matter his alignment, he will sport the powerful cleric aura of his god. Joey is a cleric of Cayden (CG), having a CN alignment normally and a N alignment when acting as The Masked Drunkard. Detecting alignment on him will always show his CG cleric aura.

Also, note that clerics are unable to cast spells opposed to their own or their god's alignment:

Cleric wrote:
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one).
Joey can't cast Lawful or Evil spells, ever, even if he is currently the Masked Drunkard. If the Masked Drunkard had been CE, Joey would ALSO be unable to cast Good spells when acting as him. It is not specified, but it could be assumed that this restriction only applies to his cleric spells.

In my above reply, I did show that a cleric loses all class features, this includes the aura class feature. If you do not have the aura class feature, you do not have the Cleric aura. SO by being outside of the alignment for the Vigilante identity, yes, you would lose the Aura. If both were within range of the Cleric, such as a LN Social and NG Vigilante for a LG god, then yes, you would still maintain all of your class features, and detect as LG, but since TN is more than one step away for a LG god, you become an Ex-cleric for that time.


The Zealot and Cabalist archetypes for the Vigilante effectively fill the role that a "Cleric/Vigilante multiclass" would. So "your cleric aura breaks your cover" isn't really a thing worth getting that worked up about.

If you're just after a vigilante dip for a specific talent or two, just don't make your vigilante alignment different from your social alignment, or make them both acceptable to your deity.

Liberty's Edge

TrinitysEnd wrote:
In my above reply, I did show that a cleric loses all class features, this includes the aura class feature. If you do not have the aura class feature, you do not have the Cleric aura. SO by being outside of the alignment for the Vigilante identity, yes, you would lose the Aura. If both were within range of the Cleric, such as a LN Social and NG Vigilante for a LG god, then yes, you would still maintain all of your class features, and detect as LG, but since TN is more than one step away for a LG god, you become an Ex-cleric for that time.

I'm not sure if it works that way for all vigilantes, but it is explicitly allowed by the Splintersoul archetype.

Splintered Identity (Ex) wrote:

A splintersoul’s two identities are even more distant from one another than those of a normal vigilante. He cannot use any of his vigilante talents while in his social identity.

However, for the purpose of qualifying for classes, feats, and other abilities, he is eligible if one of his alignments meets the requirements. While in an identity whose alignment is incompatible with an ability, class, or feat, he temporarily loses access to the feat or ability or is treated as an ex-member of the class, as appropriate.

For example, a splintersoul with barbarian levels, a lawful-good social identity, and a neutral vigilante identity can’t use his vigilante talents or his rage class feature while in his social identity, but he regains these abilities and can use them as normal as soon as he changes to his vigilante identity.


Hmmm... That seems to suggest both identities just need to be in range in order for you to take the class. I prefer my version, but makes sense. I'd take it up with your GM and get their opinion (or if you are the GM, go with what you feel best).


TE: You actually DIDN'T show that a cleric loses all class features for having an out-of-alignment identity. At least not in a way that any cleric/vigilante would like. The text you pointed to was the ex-clerics section, so I interpret your argument as "if the cleric ever gets an alignment more than one step from her deity, she is an ex cleric and needs to atone." This is obviously a far worse prospect for a cleric/vigilante. See.. ex clerics do NOT get their powers back. Your so-called solution means they are screwed EVERY SINGLE TIME they assume their other identity, requiring reparations and getting back into the God's good graces etc.

You were wrong. It won't get more right for repeating it.


Sissyl wrote:

TE: You actually DIDN'T show that a cleric loses all class features for having an out-of-alignment identity. At least not in a way that any cleric/vigilante would like. The text you pointed to was the ex-clerics section, so I interpret your argument as "if the cleric ever gets an alignment more than one step from her deity, she is an ex cleric and needs to atone." This is obviously a far worse prospect for a cleric/vigilante. See.. ex clerics do NOT get their powers back. Your so-called solution means they are screwed EVERY SINGLE TIME they assume their other identity, requiring reparations and getting back into the God's good graces etc.

You were wrong. It won't get more right for repeating it.

To be fair, even if it screws the vigilante over that doesn't mean it's not RAW. Just from reading over the abilities in queation, it does indeed appear that if you choose to have a social identity with an alignment outside your deity's allowed range, when you switch into it you are shifting alignment and becoming an ex-cleric willingly.


Sissyl wrote:

TE: You actually DIDN'T show that a cleric loses all class features for having an out-of-alignment identity. At least not in a way that any cleric/vigilante would like. The text you pointed to was the ex-clerics section, so I interpret your argument as "if the cleric ever gets an alignment more than one step from her deity, she is an ex cleric and needs to atone." This is obviously a far worse prospect for a cleric/vigilante. See.. ex clerics do NOT get their powers back. Your so-called solution means they are screwed EVERY SINGLE TIME they assume their other identity, requiring reparations and getting back into the God's good graces etc.

You were wrong. It won't get more right for repeating it.

As Morgan put, no I wasn't wrong. And yes, you'd technically need to atone. As a GM, I'd handwave it. But it doesn't mean I was wrong. It just means any smart player should not, under normal circumstances, fall as a cleric, as it's bad for your abilities. Falling is losing your alignment or acting way out of line for your faith. Like a murderhobo Cleric of Shelyn.

Now, I repeat once again, since you like it. I'd still run it that way in any game I run. Allowing the Cleric to lose their abilities temporarily. I'd likely require the player to have a good reason for needing to hide their Cleric side, but that is RP restrictions.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, I think that if a vigilante/cleric's alignment becomes unacceptable to the deity as a result of changing identities, they become an ex-cleric until they atone - switching identities back won't reverse the fact that they fell.

The splintersoul, as keerawa cited above, appears to specifically modify this restriction, allowing the character to merely temporarily suppress their other class's abilities if their alignment no longer qualifies, rather than permanently becoming an ex-[class]. In this case, they would have a normal cleric aura in any identity that is within one step of the deity's alignment and no aura in any identity that is more than one step away. If it's important that you not have your deity's aura in one identity, plan to become a temporary ex-cleric in that identity.

Misdirection masks all auras, even if granted by a class other than the one granting Misdirection.

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