Bitter Drawback: do wands and potions count?


Rules Questions


Hi, I've been looking at the Bitter Drawback (link)... (from the Antihero's Handbook)

It's more of a low level question (as at high levels, 1hp is neither here nor there, {except that one time when it is}), but:

I wondered if your allies made potions, wands, (or even items/iouns/armor that healed you as its power x/day etc), would this also count as their "class feature" (especially if the feat to create stuff was a class bonus feat for them, such as Brew Potions, Wondrous Items etc.)?

By extrapolation, would the drawback also apply when you buy (or find/loot) an item of healing? From a fluff point of view is it the not trusting your mates on the spot versus not trusting the healing in all sources...?

Just want to clear this up before possibly selecting it for a character; I am pushing the question to (il)logical extremes to see where the line is... if you could buy the same wand of healing from a shop instead of using one your mate made, if you get 1 point extra healing from the one in the shop compared to your mate's wand that seems odd... (i.e. what's to stop your mate selling a bunch to the shop and then you buying one that you don't know was made by them)?

Coming back to class spell/feature vs. item (fluff), is it because "all magic wands are the same, and do the same xDn each time" that you would trust a wand rather than an ally and their "personal motives"?

Also, if a villain heals you for whatever reason (sloppy use of channeling, not realising a usually harmful effect heals you, or you are a prisoner and they want to keep you alive), what does that count as?

Final bit, if an ally heals you with (edited, realized Cure Light is 1d8+1 minimum) Channeling for 1d6 at 1st-2nd level, if a 1 is rolled does that mean 0 healing (also if that were the case, would it still Stabilize you)?


Doki-Chan wrote:
Final bit, if an ally heals you Cure Light for 1d8, if a 1 is rolled does that mean 0 healing (also if that were the case, would it still Stabilize you)?

No, as cure spells normally can't only heal 1 point of damage. They heal a number of d8, plus the casters caster level. So a caster level 1 cure light wounds would heal a minimum of 2 hit points (1d8+1), or 1 point in this case because of the drawback.

The drawbck doesn't seem to interact with items at all, so their healing is unchanged. Likewise, it only changes healing from allies, so any healing from enemies is also unchanged.


Thanks Jeraa, I realized that and edited the original bit to make it Channeling instead, as low level clerics would do 1d6...

The biggest flaw would be using a friend's Pearly White Spindle Ioun stone that healed 1hp per time period I think, depending on a DM ruling harshly...


Doki-Chan wrote:

Thanks Jeraa, I realized that and edited the original bit to make it Channeling instead, as low level clerics would do 1d6...

The biggest flaw would be using a friend's Ioun stone that healed 1HP per time period I think, depending on a DM ruling harshly...

If there is no minimum listed, then there is no minimum. You could potentially receive 0 points of healing. And an ioun stone is an item, not an allies "class feature, spell, or spell-like ability". It is unaffected.


Oof. That would make you immune to Infernal Healing, which is my go-to spell for healing.


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Kristal Moonhand wrote:
Oof. That would make you immune to Infernal Healing, which is my go-to spell for healing.

I wonder if it does actually, since the spell grants fast healing, not actual direct healing.


Had not thought about Fast Healing effects {the specific words being "when you receive healing" in the drawback : Infernal/Celestial Healing are all Conjuration (Healing) spells still...} so I'm unsure myself.

Thanks :)


Doki-Chan wrote:

Thanks Jeraa, I realized that and edited the original bit to make it Channeling instead, as low level clerics would do 1d6...

The biggest flaw would be using a friend's Pearly White Spindle Ioun stone that healed 1hp per time period I think, depending on a DM ruling harshly...

the ioun stone only heals damage that was taken while worn, see ring of regeneration. No harsh rulings required.


Azothath wrote:


the ioun stone only heals damage that was taken while worn, see ring of regeneration. No harsh rulings required.

Thanks, I'm just clarifying for myself really, in case the question comes up in play I will have better answers than when I started :)

So, Just probably Infernal/Celestial Healing that won't work (unless on a Wand)


if you take the Bitter drawback, ask your GM. He needs to think about it himself as it's going to affect your character in common situations and his answer is the one that counts.

I'd buy a wand of infernal healing and have your friend use that on you. That should work fine and take another step away from ally spellcasting. Always carry a potion of cure light wounds, get an aegis of recovery. Later buy a cracked pearly white ioun stone. The Boots of the Earth are a bit cheesy and your GM is likely to reject them.

Bitter sounds perfect for a dhampir or wayang(light & dark).


Adding Goodberry to the list it affects? (assuming you can't cram all the berries into your mouth at once as that counts as being super full?)


Wands and Potions are still spells, and are still being cast by someone, even if using an item to do so. If you are using the wand (and of course when drinking the potion) that ally is you.

You count as your own ally in pathfinder, so technically that is always the case. That said, the context here makes it pretty clear to me that this trait is trying to separate you and your allies into two categories and any healing you do on yourself (including drinking a potion) wouldn't be effected.

I am pretty sure that fast healing granted by a spell would not be effected. The spell doesn't heal you, the spell gives you fast healing which isn't something on the list. I think goodberry would also get by, the spell creates magical berries, but it is the berries, not the spell that created them, that provide the healing. I could certainly see a GM ruling differently though.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the game in question Infernal healing is not a factor as the material component is fantastically hard to get. (Lack of Devils and Demons ). However I think I would let it work based on my reading of the rules
I would say that items used by the character will give full healing and if used by an other will suffer the penalty and will lump good berry spells in with items.


JohnHawkins wrote:
For the game in question Infernal healing is not a factor as the material component is fantastically hard to get. (Lack of Devils and Demons ).

Or doses of unholy water? Every spell component pouch has an endless supply of it. ;)


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Doh
I had forgotten unholy water was a component. Still going to be hard to find as clerics are fairly rare. The land the pc's are in had mainly druids and evil clerics are going to be more rare.
Also the pc's spell component pouches must be defective ;) No unholy water in them.


Hi GM! *waves...*


JohnHawkins wrote:

Doh

I had forgotten unholy water was a component. Still going to be hard to find as clerics are fairly rare. The land the pc's are in had mainly druids and evil clerics are going to be more rare.
Also the pc's spell component pouches must be defective ;) No unholy water in them.

Witch's with water patron. Alchemists, witches and druids can make Waters of Lamashtu which counts as unholy water. Antipaladins/inquisitor can curse water.

I'll stand by my spell pouch having a supply: it has no listed cost and is available as long as the DM hasn't murdered every alchemist, witch, druid, antipaladin and/or inquisitor from the setting...

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