Here are some questions about them:
1) Bodywraps of mighty strikes +1 + amulet of mighty fists (Furious) = what bonus in rage while activated bodywraps? +2, because of nonstacking, or +3?
2) My full idea for natural attacking bloodrager is...
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Furious Furyborn Heartseeker Dragonbane
Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes: +1 Wounding Brilliant Energy
OR
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Dragonbane Furious Furyborn Shocking
Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes: +1 Heartseeker Brilliant Energy (1 left)
Tell me, pleasel is it legal? What enhancement bonus will be in different situations?
I know the rule, that enhancement cannot be more, than 5 (but in cases of bane and similar effects it can), but total equivavelnt of abilities on one weapon cannot be more +10, and it is a hard cap. So what about furyborn? Can it "turn off" other abilities? Or is it just "enhanecement bonuses", not "bonus equivavelnts of weapon"?
For question one, the answer is you will have a +2 bonus. The affect of furious applies to the amulet of mighty fists (which has an enhancement of 0, which furious makes 2 better). If you had an amulet of mighty fists +2 and a bodywrap of mighty strikes +1, what is the end result? A +2 to attack.
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For question one, the answer is you will have a +2 bonus. The affect of furious applies to the amulet of mighty fists (which has an enhancement of 0, which furious makes 2 better). If you had an amulet of mighty fists +2 and a bodywrap of mighty strikes +1, what is the end result? A +2 to attack.
I'm not so sure furious wouldn't increase the higher enhancement bonus by 2. The amulet simply enhances your unarmed strikes and furious increases the enhancement bonus of the "weapon" by 2 and the weapon here in the unarmed strike. By strict wording of the RAW it seems that the furious would increase the bodywraps +1 to +3.
Nope, amulet of mighty fists is weird, but the easiest way to think of it is that the amulet is the weapon, and it happens to pass along it's bonuses to any unarmed attacks you possess.
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Nope, amulet of mighty fists is weird, but the easiest way to think of it is that the amulet is the weapon, and it happens to pass along it's bonuses to any unarmed attacks you possess.
I definitely agree with that line of thinking and think that's probably the best way for rules consistency, but I don't think it's true by RAW.
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.
No wording about it being treated as the weapon. It simply grants those qualities to your unarmed strikes/natural attacks.
So in this case it would seem to grant those attacks the furious enhancement which treats the weapon's enhancement bonus as 2 higher. Doesn't matter where that enhancement is coming from by RAW.
Yeah, but RAW is stupid.
That line of thinking leads to the answer that an amulet of mighty fists with the speed quality grants an extra attack with each unarmed attack (which is wrong by FAQ).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yeah, but RAW is stupid.
That line of thinking leads to the answer that an amulet of mighty fists with the speed quality grants an extra attack with each unarmed attack (which is wrong by FAQ).
I think it's less "RAW is stupid" and more "using interesting interpretations to get to a cool for me RAW".
Most RAW is pretty easy to figure out which interpretation is likely and which is not.
Amulet is not a weapon, it has a restriction of +5 max, not +10, and it has no chance to qualify as a weapon for other things like wileding a weapon, attacking with weqpon, disarm and other.
I just think that increasing enhancement bonuse of a weapon and adding enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls is different things (like using magic weapon greater). And i think that bodywrap functions like magic weapon greater because of wording.
So what is the answer? :)
What is wrong and powerful with speed natural attack? +4 bonus for an opportunity of extra attack per round, that does NOT stack with haste? Meh, better take +4 to hit and damage.
EDIT: Sorry, +3, but you get the point. There are more easy ways to get extra natural attacks, like helm of the mammoth lord, for example, or different fury, totems, etc. Why bother about speed aomf?
Amulet is not a weapon, it has a restriction of +5 max, not +10, and it has no chance to qualify as a weapon for other things like wileding a weapon, attacking with weqpon, disarm and other.
I just think that increasing enhancement bonuse of a weapon and adding enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls is different things (like using magic weapon greater). And i think that bodywrap functions like magic weapon greater because of wording.
So what is the answer? :)
You're right that the amulet isn't a weapon, but it the easiest understanding of how it functions is to pretend that it's the weapon and conveys it's benefits to all unarmed attacks.
Besides, lets look at Furious.
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder’s anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in her hand, even when she is not raging. This bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (and also includes the +2 if the wielder is raging).
The normal enhancement bonus is 0, so it would always be a flat +2 by a strict interpretation like what you're using).
Amulet is not a weapon, it has a restriction of +5 max, not +10, and it has no chance to qualify as a weapon for other things like wileding a weapon, attacking with weqpon, disarm and other.
I just think that increasing enhancement bonuse of a weapon and adding enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls is different things (like using magic weapon greater). And i think that bodywrap functions like magic weapon greater because of wording.
So what is the answer? :)
You're right that the amulet isn't a weapon, but it the easiest understanding of how it functions is to pretend that it's the weapon and conveys it's benefits to all unarmed attacks.
Besides, lets look at Furious.
The normal enhancement bonus is 0, so it would always be a flat +2 by a strict interpretation like what you're using).This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder’s anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal. If the wielder has a rage power that gives a skill bonus while raging (such as raging climber, raging leaper, or raging swimmer), the wielder gains an enhancement bonus to that skill whenever the weapon is wielded or held in her hand, even when she is not raging. This bonus is equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon (and also includes the +2 if the wielder is raging).
Nope, because for a moment it becomes +1. And what about furyborn in this case?
I think this would would just like a bow and arrow would. You combine the abilities and take the highest of the bonuses to figure out what you have.
+1 with furious with an unarmed strike
Furious makes the enhancement bonus +2 higher.
Now, if the wrap was +2 furious, and the amulet was +1 flaming, you'd get:
+2 furious flaming attack
+4 flaming when raging
Seems like everyone is complicating this much more than needed.
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Yeah, but RAW is stupid.
That line of thinking leads to the answer that an amulet of mighty fists with the speed quality grants an extra attack with each unarmed attack (which is wrong by FAQ).
It's fine if you think RAW is stupid (it is in many cases) but the OP was asking how it works by the rules and unless we see clarification it works by the RAW.
Giving your opinion on how it should work after is certainly helpful, but when some asks how something works rules wise we should separate our opinions on how it should work and how it currently works as written.
And if anything the speed FAQ supports this answer. It had to be clarified because as written it worked that way prior to the FAQ.
The normal enhancement bonus is 0, so it would always be a flat +2 by a strict interpretation like what you're using).Oh place stop it. The normal enhancement bonus is whatever the enhancement bonus is when the PC is not raging.
This thread has just gotten very silly. I am out.
I agree that it's a silly interpretation, but I also thing the interpretation you're purporting is silly.
Furious affects the enhancement bonus provide by whatever weapon it's on. In this case, the amulet of mighty fists which doesn't have an enhancement bonus, so it makes it a +2 enhancement.
Then you try to apply body wraps of mighty strikes. It doesn't increase an existing enhancement bonus, so you apply whatever enhancement bonus the body wraps have (whatever you purchased it at).
If the bonus on the body wraps is higher than that of the amulet, that's what you get. You get whichever bonus is higher, because they're both enhancement bonuses and don't stack.
It might be easier to understand if I provide an exmaple:
You have body wraps +4.
You have amulet of mighty fist +1 furious
The amulet grants your attacks a +3 enhancement bonus to attacks when you rage.
You attempt to use body wraps, they increase your attack to a +4 instead of a +3.
Conversely, if you have a +2 body wrap and +1 furious amulet you end up with a +3 enhancement bonus.
It's two different sources trying to apply an enhancement bonus to the same thing. They don't stack.
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The normal enhancement bonus is 0, so it would always be a flat +2 by a strict interpretation like what you're using).Oh place stop it. The normal enhancement bonus is whatever the enhancement bonus is when the PC is not raging.
This thread has just gotten very silly. I am out.
I agree that it's a silly interpretation, but I also thing the interpretation you're purporting is silly.
Furious affects the enhancement bonus provide by whatever weapon it's on. In this case, the amulet of mighty fists which doesn't have an enhancement bonus, so it makes it a +2 enhancement.
Then you try to apply body wraps of mighty strikes. It doesn't increase an existing enhancement bonus, so you apply whatever enhancement bonus the body wraps have (whatever you purchased it at).
If the bonus on the body wraps is higher than that of the amulet, that's what you get. You get whichever bonus is higher, because they're both enhancement bonuses and don't stack.
It might be easier to understand if I provide an exmaple:
You have body wraps +4.
You have amulet of mighty fist +1 furiousThe amulet grants your attacks a +3 enhancement bonus to attacks when you rage.
You attempt to use body wraps, they increase your attack to a +4 instead of a +3.
Conversely, if you have a +2 body wrap and +1 furious amulet you end up with a +3 enhancement bonus.
It's two different sources trying to apply an enhancement bonus to the same thing. They don't stack.
You need to quote rules supporting your position. So far it seems as though you're simply stating how you would like it to work as fact.
I quoted previously how the amulet of mighty fists says it works. It does not say it is treated as the weapon. It simply says it confers the enhancements bonus and special abilities to natural attacks/unarmed strikes. So if you had both bodywraps and the amulet you would take the higher of the 2 enhancement bonuses since the same type of bonuses don't stack (with a few exceptions obviously), but you would get the special abilities from both up to the typical limit of +10 total bonus on a weapon.
And then we look at furious which increases the enhancement bonus of the weapon by +2 while raging. The Amulet of Mighty Fists and Bodywraps of Mighty Strikes nowhere state they are treated as the weapon, but rather simply grant natural attacks/unarmed strikes their abilities and enhancement bonuses. So while raging the furious property is going to look at the weapon which is unarmed strikes/natural attacks and increase whatever it's current enhancement bonus is.
I'm open to being proven wrong if you can find any rules contradicting the ones I've quoted/mentioned.
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Pratt, there are no rules to contradict. Just differ on the meaning of confer.
Although I used confer as a synonym, the actual word used by the amulet is "grant(s)"
Now grant has no Pathfinder specific meaning, so we default to basic English definitions.
So let's pull out the good 'ol dictionary.
Definition of grant
transitive verb
1 a : to consent to carry out for a person : allow fulfillment of grant a request
b : to permit as a right, privilege, or favor luggage allowances granted to passengers2 : to bestow or transfer formally grant a scholarship to a student; specifically : to give the possession or title of by a deed
3 a : to be willing to concede I grant you that the house is not in perfect condition.
b : to assume to be true granting that you are correct
So in context only #2 makes sense. So both the amulet and bodywraps "bestow(s) or transfer(s) formally" the enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities to unarmed attacks and natural attacks.
That language is pretty clear.
If people want to houserule it as "the weapon is the item" instead go for it. It might end up making a lot of weapon special abilities more uniform in how they work with the amulet and bodywraps. But that is not what the text says.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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That's fine James. You're very often not convinced by people once you've chosen your preferred way for things to work, so I'm not too worried about that :)
Well, I'm in a large group of people who are not convinced when someone says "I know the only way to read these words". Considering language is never static, we shouldn't be so certain how things work. Also keep in mind, I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right. I'm saying, apparently we can't settle this. Neither can prove it to the other satisfaction. So it's an "Ask your GM" question.
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That's fine James. You're very often not convinced by people once you've chosen your preferred way for things to work, so I'm not too worried about that :)Well, I'm in a large group of people who are not convinced when someone says "I know the only way to read these words". Considering language is never static, we shouldn't be so certain how things work. Also keep in mind, I'm not saying you are wrong and I'm right. I'm saying, apparently we can't settle this. Neither can prove it to the other satisfaction. So it's an "Ask your GM" question.
My college English professors would disagree your conclusions, but you're right that we're not likely to convince each other. I just can't accept your logic as it makes every question "ask you GM" rather than having any definite meaning. That's just not how language works. Words have defined meaning. It can shift over periods of time, but that's not what's happened here.
Either way, this thread is pretty much played out. The OP has seen both sides and can decide which one he believes. Personally I generally think the side that actually uses quotes and the dictionary accepted meaning of words is the more persuasive one ;)
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Hey Pratt! Stuff:
Definition of transfer
transferred; transferring
transitive verb
1 a : to convey from one person, place, or situation to another : move, shift
b : to cause to pass from one to another : transmit
c : transform, change
2 : to make over the possession or control of : convey
3 : to print or otherwise copy from one surface to another by contact
intransitive verb
1 : to move to a different place, region, or situation; especially : to withdraw from one educational institution to enroll at another
2 : to change from one vehicle or transportation line to anotherSo... yeah, if the amulet is Transferring the ability, it no longer has it, and no rule gives it back. It cannot then transfer it to something else, as it no longer has it. So, by the definitions in your chosen dictionary, this cannot be what the item is doing, as it is clearly not a one time use item that makes a natural attack magical into perpetuity.
Definition 1b of grant seems just as likely to be the intended meaning. That it confers the advantage as a benefit. Allows the use of without a transfer of ownership.
Not that I care particularly for either stance here... pedantry is like honey to me.
Hey man, I certainly appreciate this more than being told that words essentially have no meaning because their definition can change over time :)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yeah, James is no fun to debate with.
Apologize. I’m just so used to many of these debates mired in refusal to budge that I all too often just to “there are no words that will convince them”.
This leads to situations like this where words can be said with progress, and I miss the chance to use them.
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I see now, we have different interpretations of some very specific wording.
There isn't much of a way for us to settle this. We're both reading the same rules and words, but our understanding is different.
Both interpretations are possible by the understanding of language and generally accepted definitions involved, so neither side can say definitely their answer is the correct one.
However, I always abide by a principle when trying to interpret and understand rules:
Always choose whatever is the weakest interpretation when things are unclear or questionable. In this way you are rarely disappointed.
I have applied this to almost all rules debates and questions I've been apart of on this board. Usually if there is an FAQ on a topic or other official rulings for a genuinely unclear rule, my interpretation tends to be on the correct side. I think because in general almost all official clarifications result in power reductions, not growth, so as to keep the game more functional.
Take from that anecdote what you will and have a good day.