Survey -- Magic Missile at Will


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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At will abilities are neat. Just a survey for those who want to participate to gauge what the community thing the utility of this would be at different level ranges.

Thank you for participating.

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Assume that you can cast Magic Missile at will as a standard action, with a caster level equal to your character level. What level range would you assign to the following categories?

(as a Wizard)

W1: I use it as my primary combat round action or strategy, supplementing it with my other abilities.

W2: I use it as my go-to backup action when I am not using my other abilities or when I want to conserve resources.

W3: I hardly ever use it because most other things I can do are more effective uses of my actions.

(as a Fighter)

F1: I use it as my primary combat round action or strategy, supplementing it with my other abilities.

F2: I use it as my go-to backup action when I am not using my other abilities or when I want to conserve resources.

F3: I hardly ever use it because most other things I can do are more effective uses of my actions.

(as a Rogue)

R1: I use it as my primary combat round action or strategy, supplementing it with my other abilities.

R2: I use it as my go-to backup action when I am not using my other abilities or when I want to conserve resources.

R3: I hardly ever use it because most other things I can do are more effective uses of my actions.

Shadow Lodge

It would be a solid backup action for most characters, unless they specialized in ranged combat, in which case it would become a rare backup in the event of incorporeal or very hard to hit enemies.

At low levels it's probably more useful to casters than martials as resource conservation is a serious issue to them - though even for a level 1 wizard I'm not sure it would be a "primary" strategy. At higher levels casters would use it less have a wider variety of magical options and no longer have to conserve low-level spells. Not sure if I'd use it less as a high-level martial, or about the same.


Player optimization and character builds also play a big part on the answer, meaning a class-specific answer isn't necessarily true for that class.

A face character with little to no combat expertise might appreciate a useful combat tool like this, whereas an optimized character will look at it and use it on occasion, or perhaps not at all depending on what they are optimizing.


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Me personally, or what I would expect from a player at my table...

W1: 1-4
W2: 5-8
W3: 9+

F1: 0
F2: 1-10
F3: 11-20

R1: 0
R2: 1-20

Saving Space, Explanation:

The way I see it, is the low level wizard needs to conserve resources. I expect by the time they have level 3 spells, it's a backup if they aren't swinging the tide of battle and they can afford to use more spells in a fight. By the time they're looking at 5th levels spells, a nice level 1 at will isn't going to be there backup actions, additional buffs or spells are. They'll bust it out when they would usually bust out a magic missile.

The fighter will always enjoy having magic missile, because they never need to carry a backup ranged weapon. In most fights, they're going to want to swing their weapon (I'm assuming a sword and board or two-hander fighter) and they only need it against opponents they're ineffective against (either because they're incorporeal or at range). Once they have additional iteratives and it becomes much easier to fly or they have additional maneuverability, it really drops off in usefulness.

The Rogue can't sneak attack with it. So it's a nice thing to have if they aren't in sneak attack position, can't get into sneak attack position, have something else going on, whatever. I can't think of a point where the Rogue is so good at something else that throwing Magic Missile into the mix isn't a good bet.

Silver Crusade

It depends.

If I can do the usual metamagic shenanigins with it (toppling especially) then
W1,F1,R1

If I can just use it with no shenanigans then
W2, F2, R2

But I agree with Darksol, its TRUE power comes for characters that have little other combat utility. I can now focus a character completely around sneaking, buffing, etc and still have the ability to contribute to fights in a semi meaningful manner

Scarab Sages

As above: if I have the capability to augment it, it's a top-tier strategy. Otherwise, it's just a useful tool.

That being said, it would still be possible to build around. Assuming it sales regardless of class levels, you could take it with Arcane Trickster purely for the 10th level sneak attack damage to a single target.

There are also a lot of characters that would benefit from a default ranged option that isn't a bow.


I appreciate the input. I had thought that low-level Wizards (and their ilk) were the only group that would receive greater benefit from this than intended, but I had overlooked the possibility of a character min-maxed for out-of-combat utility. Good points on the augments, as well.

Thanks, folks!


This is actually already an item (kind of, it only shoots 2 missiles and is CL 3rd, making it less powerful than the proposed SLA, and it needs to be wielded to use the ability).
Certainly a solid backup action in either case.


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Wizard
W1: 1-4 "This is my primary ability because all my other spells are shield because everyone has magic missile."
W2: 5-8 "I have fireballs and lightning bolts now. I use this when they run out."
W1" 9-14 "Now I can shoot five at a time and I use it against one guy or to hit a bunch of weak guys. If that doesn't work, then I use my fireballs"
W3: 15-20 "I have things that kill foes that I cast when I woke up this morning."

Fighter
F2: 1-6 "It doesn't benefit from my Str or Dex, but I don't have to carry a lot of arrows around, so I use it for range."
F3: 7-20 "I like the extra missiles, but I have so many feats, hit so hard with my weapon, and my weapon is enchanted to where I am getting the most efficiency out of it. Unless I absolutely want no ranged abilities otherwise, I am only using this on incorporeal or really hard to hit foes (or maybe 5 or less really little guys I could kill in one round anyway if I felt like standing up and drawing my weapon, but I don't)."

Rogue
R2: 1-6 "It's good to not miss, but I can't sneak attack with it and everyone has shield or a brooch of shielding.
R3: 7-20 "I can hit consistently with a ranged attack now because of my Dex and I can do Sneak Attack damage almost anytime I want. Only against an incorporeal creature (which is hard to hit and immune to crits) would I resort to this."


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W1:1-6
W2:7-10
W3:11+

F3:1+

R2:1-10
R3:11+

I play wizards very conservatively for spell slots used. This basically replaces my typical crossbow usage. First round or two throw out a few spells then swap to "I'm helping"

Fighters just have better things to do. Unless the targets incorporeal your still better off with a bow almost regardless of build

I can see rouges totally using it when they don't want to go melee or can't sneak attack. After the damage stops scaling I would have UMD to do other stuff with

Silver Crusade

Pfft...forget fighter, wizard, and rogue; throw that mess on a Paladin. Take quicken SLA and focus on bow fighting. Then smite and start dropping quickened magic missiles while full attacking with the bow. I don't know if they ever FAQed whether or not smite damage applies to each missile or just the spell as a whole. If it is each, you're basically a machine gun. If just the spell, well, at 10th level it's an extra couple rounds of 5d4+15 force damage that bypasses DR and automatically hits.

Is there a dazing SLA feat? If so this suddenly gets a whole lot nastier.

Scarab Sages

I had forgotten that Smite combined with Magic Missile is actually REALLY strong. It's a T1 choice for a Paladin, or any class that adds static damage to something.


pauljathome wrote:

It depends.

If I can do the usual metamagic shenanigins with it (toppling especially) then
W1,F1,R1

If I can just use it with no shenanigans then
W2, F2, R2

But I agree with Darksol, its TRUE power comes for characters that have little other combat utility. I can now focus a character completely around sneaking, buffing, etc and still have the ability to contribute to fights in a semi meaningful manner

ditto


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Magic missile shouldn't be an "at will" power, like cantrips are. It's already close to being overpowered for a 1st-level spell, because:
- it hits automatically;
- it hits incorporeal targets;
- it scales with level (up to a certain point).

There are already several "at will" missile spells, like acid splash and ray of frost, which:
- require targeting vs touch AC, with all the typical penalties for firing into melee and through your pals, etc;
- do only minimal damage, and only a very small range of methods for adding to that damage exist (alchemical focus for +1, certain bloodlines for another +1, etc);
- don't scale with level at all, and hence become increasingly irrelevant in combat.

Making magic missile an "at will" power is the same thing as writing a homebrewed cantrip that blows all the existing cantrips out of the water.

YMMV.

Silver Crusade

Davor wrote:
any class that adds static damage to something.

If static damage boosts were allowed to be added at all it becomes very powerful. If they're allowed to be added to each missile it borders on obscene.


pauljathome wrote:
Davor wrote:
any class that adds static damage to something.
If static damage boosts were allowed to be added at all it becomes very powerful. If they're allowed to be added to each missile it borders on obscene.

Hence the mention of Paladin. "Justice rains from above," as they say.


Wheldrake wrote:

Magic missile shouldn't be an "at will" power, like cantrips are. It's already close to being overpowered for a 1st-level spell, because:

- it hits automatically;
- it hits incorporeal targets;
- it scales with level (up to a certain point).

There are already several "at will" missile spells, like acid splash and ray of frost, which:
- require targeting vs touch AC, with all the typical penalties for firing into melee and through your pals, etc;
- do only minimal damage, and only a very small range of methods for adding to that damage exist (alchemical focus for +1, certain bloodlines for another +1, etc);
- don't scale with level at all, and hence become increasingly irrelevant in combat.

Making magic missile an "at will" power is the same thing as writing a homebrewed cantrip that blows all the existing cantrips out of the water.

YMMV.

Tell that to Inner Sea Gods, who printed it as just over 5,000 GP.


Wheldrake wrote:

Magic missile shouldn't be an "at will" power, like cantrips are. It's already close to being overpowered for a 1st-level spell, because:

- it hits automatically;
- it hits incorporeal targets;
- it scales with level (up to a certain point).

There are already several "at will" missile spells, like acid splash and ray of frost, which:
- require targeting vs touch AC, with all the typical penalties for firing into melee and through your pals, etc;
- do only minimal damage, and only a very small range of methods for adding to that damage exist (alchemical focus for +1, certain bloodlines for another +1, etc);
- don't scale with level at all, and hence become increasingly irrelevant in combat.

Making magic missile an "at will" power is the same thing as writing a homebrewed cantrip that blows all the existing cantrips out of the water.

YMMV.

The point wasn't to give an ability that was never useful or that quickly became irrelevant; nor was the point to give a primary attack method. The point was to give an ability that would be occasionally useful when acquired and for some levels afterwards. A Ray of Frost analogue would be pretty meaningless if you acquired it around level 4-6 (for example).

The primary point in me asking was to see if there was a consensus for power/level equivalency. The other point in me asking was to get an idea of the abuse that could be done with it. I had considered that metamagic would inflate the utility, but I hadn't thought about Paladin smite.

On the other side of the design is my personal dislike of x per day abilities and to consider the concept of abilities limited by action economy.


Have you tried Spheres of Power? It has a lot of action economy-limited stuff, with stronger abilities all drawing from a daily resource pool.


GM Rednal wrote:
Have you tried Spheres of Power? It has a lot of action economy-limited stuff, with stronger abilities all drawing from a daily resource pool.

Yes, but thank you for the suggestion. I'm actually trying to just repurpose existing tools instead of introducing alternate rulesets.

The endgame of my plans was to make some narrowly-scoped and/or low-powered classes for the express use of gestalt (instead of gestalt with full classes). That belongs in a different forum, of course.

Scarab Sages

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Wheldrake wrote:

Making magic missile an "at will" power is the same thing as writing a homebrewed cantrip that blows all the existing cantrips out of the water.

YMMV.

Considering damage-dealing cantrips are pure and utter garbage, maybe they deserve to get blown out of the water.

Silver Crusade

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Kitty Catoblepas wrote:


On the other side of the design is my personal dislike of x per day abilities and to consider the concept of abilities limited by action economy.

Perhaps some of the "crap" abilities of the arcanist are decent places to look? Take out the arcane point limitations and things like acid jet may become interesting?


I remember 3.x had some damaging abilities a spellcaster could use as long as they had a spell of the appropriate level prepared, making them effectively at-will at the cost of setting aside spell slots, but I can't for the life of me remember what they were called.

Dark Archive

blahpers wrote:
I remember 3.x had some damaging abilities a spellcaster could use as long as they had a spell of the appropriate level prepared, making them effectively at-will at the cost of setting aside spell slots, but I can't for the life of me remember what they were called.

Reserve feats, which may or may not have been inspired by the Scarred Lands Locus feats (which did basically the same thing, allowing a caster to draw upon the stored energy of prepared spells to invoke effects).

Winter's Blast and Storm Bolt were two of the more 'blast at will' options, among the Reserve feats.

Dark Archive

Bloodrealm wrote:

This is actually already an item (kind of, it only shoots 2 missiles and is CL 3rd, making it less powerful than the proposed SLA, and it needs to be wielded to use the ability).

Certainly a solid backup action in either case.

Gosh, that item sure would get fun if it could be upped to CL 5, 7 or 9... (or used the casters SL, like a staff)


Set wrote:
blahpers wrote:
I remember 3.x had some damaging abilities a spellcaster could use as long as they had a spell of the appropriate level prepared, making them effectively at-will at the cost of setting aside spell slots, but I can't for the life of me remember what they were called.

Reserve feats, which may or may not have been inspired by the Scarred Lands Locus feats (which did basically the same thing, allowing a caster to draw upon the stored energy of prepared spells to invoke effects).

Winter's Blast and Storm Bolt were two of the more 'blast at will' options, among the Reserve feats.

That's the stuff. Good memory!

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