As the title suggests.
I have a new-ish player joining my group and we're already 12 levels in, everybody is really excited and willing to deal with the growing pains. The player herself said she wants to play a character with a whip and lots of fire damage.
In my head this translates to: A Magus with a Scorpion Whip and a bunch of fire spells but I could also see an argument for a Flame Mystery Oracle, Fire Domain Druid, Fire Domain Cleric and Fire Blessing Warpriest.
I'm looking for a class that's easy to use at higher level that can dish out copious amounts of fire damage and has enough feat slots to make a whip work.
Preferably with room for some out-of-combat gimmick or two as my campaign is generally 30% combat or less in an average session.
No need to go in excessive detail but I'm looking for some good places to start building the character with her.
Something with decent to-hit and fire.
For now I instructed her to work on the WHO she wants to play more than the WHAT but I figured asking around for some suggestions at this early stage might already prove useful once she's figured out a bit more.
Not to mention, certain class character archetypes might inspire her.
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That sounds like a disaster for a new-ish player. A level 12 Magus imho is one of the worst things to hand a newer player. Even going Sorc/Dragon Disciple would be easier imho.
Indeed a spontaneous caster is in my opinion also newer player friendly as you don't drown them in options so much.
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You'd be better off with a Pyrokinetecist.
Basically an Avatar style Firebender.
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You'd be better off with a Pyrokinetecist.
Basically an Avatar style Firebender.
And there's also the Kinetic Knight archetype on top of that.
You'd be better off with a Pyrokinetecist.
Basically an Avatar style Firebender.
How good are they with weapons though? Genuinely asking because I have never had a player run a Kinetecist so I don't know much about them.
A kineticist wouldn't be using manufactured weapons, but rather weapons made out of the magical fire they produce. Kinetic Knight automatically gets all the infusions they need to be a melee kineticist, including the ability to make a whip out of their element.
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I see there is a Kinetic Whip talent to add that reach to the otherwise melee-only Kinetic Blade.
Right I'm going to read up on the Kineticist (I'm assuming they're easy to use), thanks for the suggestions so far but I'm also hoping there's a few more suggestions for other class-chassis options.
Still, 10/10 on the quick response and helpful advice, always love this forum.
Well they get simple weapon proficiency and light armor. No matter which way you go you'd still have to spend a proficiency on Scorpion whip. However with the kinetic knight, by level 5 your kinetic blade can become a kinetic whip (aka firewhip you can manifest at will)
They get 3/4 BAB same as a magus, 2 good saves and the ability to superheat her flesh as a defense (essentially immunity to being grappled)
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Well they get simple weapon proficiency and light armor. No matter which way you go you'd still have to spend a proficiency on Scorpion whip. However with the kinetic knight, by level 5 your kinetic blade can become a kinetic whip (aka firewhip you can manifest at will)
They get 3/4 BAB same as a magus, 2 good saves and the ability to superheat her flesh as a defense (essentially immunity to being grappled)
Unless they're dealing with Succubi.
Fire kineticist with kinetic whip is the best simple option. Don't go kinetic knight though, a normal kineticist works better for this and keeps a ranged attack.
A straight magus will certainly work well though.
Get whip proficiency from race
1 spell focus evocation
3 weapon focus
5 whip mastery, weapon finesse
7 spell specialization fireball
9 improved whip mastery
11 intensify spell, weapon specialization whip
13 empower spell
Cast fireballs while full attacking and use arcane pool points for improved spell recall to cast more. Go with high Dex and int and an agile whip. Since you're high level you can also go straight based quite easily and skip weapon finesse
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I'm gonna say the Kineticist is probably your best option as well. With Kinetic Blade and Kinetic whip you can definitely fill the whip using melee character role.
I would suggest picking a 2nd element at level 7, so they have a different element they can fall back on when they run into something with high fire resistance or fire immunity. I would also suggest making it an element with a physical blast, for when you also run into enemies with a high spell resistance.
Earth would be my go to for this kind of character, gives you a nice basic physical blast, the magma composite blast is quite nice, and earth also gives a lot of fun utility options. I would also suggest grabbing Expanded Defense for the earth defense Flesh of Stone, which is one of the best defensive abilities in the game, scaling DR is amazing for a melee combatant.
For feats you will want-
Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast
Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration (energy based blasts have to penetrate spell resistance)
Weapon Finesse (Kinetic Blade and Kinetic Whip can count as light 1 handed weapons and Kineticists are Dex and Con oriented, so your Dex should be higher than Str)
If they are ever going to fire from range, Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are practically mandatory for ranged builds.
Toughness is also nice, as Kineticists have to burn their own HP to use some of the bigger/nicer options.
Most of the fire based attacks will target touch AC, so you won't need to hyper-focus on Dex...I would prioritize Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Str>Cha
Take a look at the elementalist shifter. That's whip damage +4d6 fire with full BAB and you can add flaming for an extra 1d6 fire. You can get the 3 Whip Mastery feats, weapon focus whip and exotic weapon proficiency with a feat left over. If you can get the whip proficiency from race, that's another feat open. Weapon finesse can mean Str isn't needed. Whip Specialist and Opportunistic traits help too.
Now utility isn't as good as a caster type, mostly changing shape into elementals [swim, fly, burrow, ect] and Omnielementalist [control type effects like Volcanic Stride [difficult terrain around you & 4d6 fire], Steam Cloud [20' radius obscuring mist] and Ash Storm [shifter gains 20% miss chance vs ranged attacks]]. It should fit "a class that's easy to use at higher level that can dish out copious amounts of fire damage and has enough feat slots to make a whip work."
As much as I personally adore the kineticist I'm not sure I'd hand a level 12 one to a new-ish player. The kineticist has a LOT going on in the build game that can make it daunting to put together if you don't know what you're doing.
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While mechanically weaker, you could hand the player an eldritch scion magus with scorpion whip proficiency. It's easier with the spells due to the spontaneous rather than prepared spellcasting and there's fewer spells to need to keep track of.
Kineticists are not a newbie friendly class in my opinion, and wouldn't hand that to a player as a lv12 option.
Half-orc can take an alternate race trait to gain proficiency in whips. With scorpion whip prof, they gain the reach and special qualities of a whip while still getting the benefits of the scorpion whip.
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Just give her a fighter with a Flaming whip. Though since you're 12th I'd recommend a Crimson Templar They get fire resistance, flaming wings, and heavenly fire.
After some digging on the Kinetecist it looks fairly simple yes but it does have the downside of being a class that's very different from almost anything else and nobody in my group has ever played one.
This will make it harder for my players and me to support her.
By no means does that mean it's off the table, it'll be the first thing I suggest to her.... but I am still shopping around for some more ideas to widen the net. I hope you all don't feel offended by me asking:
Anybody have thoughts to share on any of the divine casters I mentioned?
Also the fighter suggestion, magus suggestion and elemental shifter suggestion are all helpful and appreciated. I hadn't considered the former and latter but going pure martial does simplify a character significantly.
Anybody have thoughts to share on any of the divine casters I mentioned?
I hadn't as you said "I'm looking for a class that's easy to use at higher level" and caster isn't really that. ;)
Lets see... you mentioned Flame Mystery Oracle, Fire Domain Druid, Fire Domain Cleric and Fire Blessing Warpriest. Ok...
Fire Blessing Warpriest IMO would be the easiest IMO as a 6th level caster. My issue with this combo is that the blessing is mostly useless. It's super easy to get a flaming whip at 12th and the minor blessing doesn't stack. Personally, I'd suggest a Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain and focus on making the whip nasty and leaving the fire for spells.
Flame Mystery Oracle, the next easy as you pick the spells once and not every day. Another possible mystery is Volcano for lots of fire goodness. Elementalist Oracle and Spirit Guide [Flame Spirit] archetypes work well. Elemental Imbalance fits for a curse, adding fire spells.
Fire Domain Druid/Cleric: Druid is more complicated as it has wildshape to deal with. Both allow picking new spells per day so they'll be intimidating to 'jump in' at 12th.
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You could look at the Flame Spirit Shaman. At 11th lvl, any weapon wielded is treated as a flaming weapon. The Battle Wandering Spirit gives access to Weapon Specialization and Bane to increase damage. I'm not that familiar with whip builds, so I can't comment on how effective the whole package would be. The downside is that 9th lvl casting might be overwhelming for a new player.
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How newish is the player? What characters have they played before, and at what level?
I would hesitate to hand a 12th level caster of any class to a player who didn't at least have some experience with spellcasting.
The kineticist is a good option and not that complicated. You can work out the character's different blast options while building (see N Jolly's guide for build help - or heck, I might make one for fun), and they'll be easier to keep track of than spells. Then all you need to worry about is managing burn. If you take earth as the secondary element and take Expanded Defense, you can start the day by increasing the DR from 6 to 11 (5 burn), which gives you the full benefits of elemental overflow (easier to keep track of than increasing through the day). Since you can ignore the first 3 points of burn from infusions at level 12, a flame whip with the burning infusion is a good go-to attack that doesn't cost additional burn. With ranged blasts, you can go up to 5 burn for free if you gather power first.
The elementalist shifter looks fine and is probably the simplest option. I'd strongly consider Slashing Grace with Dex > Wis > Con as primary stats. If the character is human or gets racial whip proficiency they can get all three whip mastery feats by level 12 - otherwise delay or skip Greater Whip Mastery. No "blasting" capability here, though.
Of the classes you listed, I'd probably lean towards Warpriest if the player wants to emphasize the whip, and Oracle if the player wants to emphasize the fire.
Flame Mystery Oracle, the next easy as you pick the spells once and not every day. Another possible mystery is Volcano for lots of fire goodness. Elementalist Oracle and Spirit Guide [Flame Spirit] archetypes work well. Elemental Imbalance fits for a curse, adding fire spells.
Two of the four spells granted by Elemental Imbalance are on the Flame/Volcano Mystery lists already (Burning Hands and Wall of Fire or Contagious Flame). So though it's thematic, I wouldn't take that curse unless you're also taking the Elementalist archetype to swap out your mystery spells.
Both the Flame and Volcano oracles get access to the Touch of Flame revelation, which at 11th level give any weapon you hold the flaming ability.
While mechanically weaker, you could hand the player an eldritch scion magus with scorpion whip proficiency. It's easier with the spells due to the spontaneous rather than prepared spellcasting and there's fewer spells to need to keep track of.
I don't think that spontaneous casting makes the eldritch scion any simpler than the vanilla magus since you have to keep track of mystic focus and the associated bloodline abilities (though at least at level 12 you can use spell combat without being in mystic focus). In any case, spell strike and spell combat are harder to deal with than prepared casting.
Normally, I would second the idea of Pyrokinetic Knight, but a very new player jumping in at 12th level of ANYTHING sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
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Normally, I would second the idea of Pyrokinetic Knight, but a very new player jumping in at 12th level of ANYTHING sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Any of the casting classes, sure. But I think the Kineticist is probably workable if you hold the players hand a bit. You can literally make flash cards for "blast combinations that are 0 net burn" (I've done this myself for when I'm juggling a lot of options). Particularly if the character in question is a Kinetic Knight, you limit yourself to the melee oriented form infusions.
I mean, the main reason the kineticist is looked at as complex is that it's largely unlike everything else in the game. A new player wouldn't have those preconceptions.
Pick up a second element at level 7 with a good defense worth investing burn into at breakfast (or just start at level 1 with one of those, and then pick up fire at level 7) and you don't even have to worry about elemental overflow bonuses changing during the day. You just figure you invest the amount of burn to get the best bonus into Force Ward or Flesh of Stone and then your remaining burn is something you can use to nova with.
EDIT: On reflection, if you want to go Kinetic Knight, and you're starting at level 12 you're almost better off going Fire 2nd. The best wild talents pyrokineticists get are AoE form infusions, which the Knight can't use, and the two utility talents from fire the Kinetic Knight absolutely wants (Smoke Storm and Fire Sight so you can run around with concealment and force people to fight you blind) are level 3 talents, so you can have both at level 12 if your second element is fire.
You may also keep in mind that at level 12, there are many fire immune creatures that will give him problems, unless you plan on curtailing encounters so he will not run into that problem?
EDIT: On reflection, if you want to go Kinetic Knight, and you're starting at level 12 you're almost better off going Fire 2nd. The best wild talents pyrokineticists get are AoE form infusions, which the Knight can't use, and the two utility talents from fire the Kinetic Knight absolutely wants (Smoke Storm and Fire Sight so you can run around with concealment and force people to fight you blind) are level 3 talents, so you can have both at level 12 if your second element is fire.
Fire gets a lot of substance infusions. That, combined with Fire's Fury (another utility from Fire you absolutely want), means it synergizes nicely with Kinetic Knight. Searing Flesh actually having a chance to activate is a bit of icing, too, though you obviously don't want to get hit and if you have a better defensive talent you'll want to pump that up instead.
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Fire gets a lot of substance infusions. That, combined with Fire's Fury (another utility from Fire you absolutely want), means it synergizes nicely with Kinetic Knight. Searing Flesh actually having a chance to activate is a bit of icing, too, though you obviously don't want to get hit and if you have a better defensive talent you'll want to pump that up instead.
I agree, thought my observation is largely that the fire talents that a Kinetic Knight would want are clustered in levels 1-3, so you can have them easily if you expand into fire instead of starting there. Whereas if you started at fire and expanded into something with a good defense, you would have to spend the talent on an extra defense. Since you absolutely want Flesh of Stone or Force Ward if you're a level 12 person who mixes it up in melee; you only *might* want searing flesh.
Flash Infusion and Brilliant Infusion aren't that amazing, and Pure Flame and Unraveling Infusions aren't really needed if you have a second blast that's physical for those situations where enemies are fire immune and/or have a lot of spell resistance. Kinetic Knight doesn't really need to worry about composite blasts anyway, since you can't reliably use them before you get Composite Specialization at level 16, after you get your third element.
Flash and Brilliant are okay (as you said: not amazing), but Burning Infusion is great, increasing your to-hit rolls and save DCs.
You're right about starting in another element and expanding into Fire when you're beginning at 12th level, and I didn't mean to dispute that bit.
Can you make her a whip-wielding slayer and just give her an amazing magical whip of fire? Like double or triple flaming for +2d6 or +3d6 fire damage? Or re-flavor the sneak attack for extra fire damage?
The slayer is a super easy class to run, has lots of out of combat utility with her slayer talents and skill points, and has a really good chassis: Good BAB, good Fortitude and Reflex saving throws, d10 Hit Dice, and 6+ skill points per level, plus all Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiencies, Light and Medium Armor, and Shields.
Go Half-orc for whip proficiency. Alternatively, go sorcerer and just flavor the spells with whip imagery. Even the half-orc favored class bonus adds fire damage!
Too bad there isn't a PF of the 3.5 Warlock. That was a nice and simple magic-user.
I have to say I’m unconvinced by the kinetic knight
Normal Kineticts gain next nothing from being STR based and end up with great Dex as a necessity for hitting ranged simply employing weapon finesse for melee.
Getting Armor Proficiency is therefore not actually much of an Ac boost, especially by level 12, and I don’t see how the infusions they get and resolve or whatever there version is called can be a fair trade for losing a competitive ranged attack and losing metakinesis. + being Dex based is more skill friendly and more inline with the typical whip user fantasy.
What about a Strength-based Barbarian dual-wielding flaming whips and using various Elemental and maybe Dragon Rage Powers?
One more vote for kineticist.
It seems to be the best fit at satisfying the desiderata of (1) fitting the fire-blaster (with whip) idea, (2) being relatively simple to play, and (3) being easy to make effective with virtually no system mastery (because the kineticist's floor is so high).
(On the last point: since fire attacks target touch AC, and the damage it does is about the same regardless of how you build it, you don't need to min/max to make a kineticist relatively effective. Even a first-time player who uses their point buy to buy straight 13s for attributes, spends all of their feats on Skill Focus, and picks talents and infusions randomly, will be effective *enough* to still make a contribution in combat. I'm not sure this is true for any other class.)
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I'm not sure I agree about going Earth to Fire for a Kinetic Knight. It's true that Fire's good utility talents are all low level and that Earth has a better defense, but Earth's substance infusions are all low level. You'd end up taking things like Bowling as your 11th level infusion because you don't qualify for Flash or Unravelling.
Also, while I like Kinetic Knight, I wouldn't recommend it in this case.
1) The main benefit of the archetype is that you get all the melee infusions as bonus infusions, more or less doubling your total number of infusions. This significantly increases the complexity - not a great idea for a new player.
2) Earth and Fire between them just don't have that many good substance infusions. You can afford to spend infusions on Blade and Whip and still get all the substance infusions you would want.
3) Some of the earth and fire AOE options are rather nice (like Eruption, Explosion, and Wall or Deadly Earth + Grappling). Even if the whip is the primary strategy, I think the ability to blast at range drop AoE, or add battlefield control beats the mediocre substance infusions available for these elements.
Aether into fire works too at being survivable, and things like "world's best mage hand" are good tools to give a newbie since they'll have fun with it and it's not very complicated.
A Kinetic Knight that starts in Aether also has the option of taking Telekinetic Maneuvers at level 8, which gives you a pretty solid ranged option to replace the one you traded away- you can grapple the flying thing or squishy caster from a long ways away. Not sure I want to suggest a newbie learn the grappling rules, but we've all got to do that sometime right?
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The main problem with the pyrokineticist is dealing with fire resist/immunity/sr. These can be overcome by using high level infusions and their composite but this does not combine well with a melee type build.
FIrst question, do they want to be fire only? Or do they want/mind another element.
Consider - Air + Fire, this gives you a physical plus energy blast, a decent composite plus the ability to fly for only a single talent. Lack good defenses though. Can also add haste as an option, good for melee.
Fire + Aether - No good composite, good defense though. This does not seem as likely as Air + Fire, but you could imagine since Aether is the raw energy of the elemental planes that you are manipulating that.
Fire + Earth - Magma type. This has a lot of good options but I would go fire first. Good composite, great defense in melee. Energy and Physical blasts, decent composite.
Fire + Wood - A char type build. This is not as strong as with Earth but does offer a different option for flavor. Ok defense, decent composite.
Infusions - A melee kineticist should look at Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Whip, Blade Whirlwind and Whip Hurricane. This give a full attack option with reach, a good AoE option. For the AoE gather power and pop a composite blast or an empowered one depending on your elements. For other infusions burning, penetrating, flash and unraveling are all great options. If you are going fire/fire than draining is also good. If they want a melee version based on a flamethrower rather than a whip, Fan of Flames plus infusions plus a high Con plus good concentration to cast defensively can do a lot as a short range AoE option, even in melee, just have to watch your friends.
Wild Talents - Smoke Storm plus Firesight is a great combo for protection yourself, but recommend everyone grab Goz masks. Fire's Fury is great for adding damage, even on melee options since those normally don't add damage from elemental overflow. Purging flame is a great healing option combining potentially break enchantment and restoration. Kinetic Form is a good addition for melee, increasing your reach especially with your whip. Elemental Whisper with a hedgehog is great for helping Will Saves, increasing it to Greater though adds to your accuracy and damage.
Ability Scores: Your three most important are Con, Dex and Wis. A high Con is good for concentration, burn, damage and DCs on your substance infusions. A high Dex is good for AC, accuracry and saving throws for your form infusions. Balancing them out is not a bad idea. A good Wis helps your poor will save. The easiest array, assuming 20 pt buy, would be 10/16/16/10/10/10, not including your racial stat mod. Small races often have an advantage as kineticists.
Feats- Weapon Finesse lets you ignore Strength as a stat. Once you get Kinetic Whip Combat Reflexes can be devastating (attack once with a composite blast with kinetic form going and then anything provoking within 15' takes 12d6 + Con + Fire's Fury damage. Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration for fire builds is also critical. Improved Crit isn't bad, Iron Will, Extra Talent will also be useful.
Gear - Look at a suit of armor that matches their Dex and eventual increases, Cloak of Resistance, Rings of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor and most importantly a Belt of +6 Dex/Con.
A barbarian with the Elemental Rage powers can choose acid, cold, fire, and lightning round by round, and would stack with a flaming whip. Sun Totem gives some fire damage bonuses and fire resistance.
Another option might be bloodrager. A few spells for zest, like burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, and eventually, wall of fire would be flavorful.
We built a level 4 Kineticist to start with with a 1shot to break her in and she seemed to take to it well enough.
Planning on scaling it up to 12 soon.
Thanks for all the advice everybody, it's been very helpful.
If you are willing to allow auto spell research, allow him to research flame blade as a whip.