Shield Chamipon + Shield Gauntlet Style + Upsetting Shield Style = ROCKET PUNCH!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Relevant

Trying to come up with a Shield Gauntlet Holy Vindicator of Gorum and I realised this.

Yes, I know it's stupid, but I still want to do this.

Edit; links

Shield Champion
Shield Gauntlet Style
Upsetting Shield Style

I suppose you'll also need this;
Weapon Style Mastery


I had to look up what each of those things do but I laughed when I pieced it together. I hope this build works out cuz I love builds like this.


I'd be open to builds if that doesn't break this boards rules, since I didn't post in advice.

Added links to the original post to make finding everything easier.

Scarab Sages

I mean, you posted in off hours. It probably just got shunted down the list.

That said, it's cool. It's an awful lot of investment, but it's cool.

Dark Archive

This was the cheapest laugh i got in the year, congratulations.


Davor wrote:

I mean, you posted in off hours. It probably just got shunted down the list.

That said, it's cool. It's an awful lot of investment, but it's cool.

I gotta remember the Aus-US time zone difference more.


Diminuendo wrote:

Relevant

Trying to come up with a Shield Gauntlet Holy Vindicator of Gorum and I realised this.

Yes, I know it's stupid, but I still want to do this.

Edit; links

Shield Champion
Shield Gauntlet Style
Upsetting Shield Style

I suppose you'll also need this;
Weapon Style Mastery

So to clarify:

Shield Gauntlet Style: allows you to treat your gauntlet as a buckler for feats

Upsetting Shield Style: then allows you to treat your "buckler" as a light shield for attacks/feats

which then allows Shield Champion to allow you to throw and return the gauntlet "shield" as a returning weapon(using the Ex ability returning shield)?

I don't think that technically works because of the following in Shield Gauntlet style:

"you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC. You lose this shield bonus whenever you attack with your gauntlet" ... "While receiving this shield bonus to AC, your gauntlet or spiked gauntlet is treated as a buckler for the purpose of using other feats and abilities (though you are also considered to have a free hand)."

So the moment you attack, you lose your "buckler"/"Shield" so the gauntlet(which is now only a gauntlet) won't qualify to return... but I don't see a reason any GM would turn it down outside PFS.

edit: oddly enough I also realise that by the RAW you could also say that the second style making the guantlet a shield disqualifies it from being a buckler in the first place because you are then "holding" a "shield"...


Both the Shielded Gauntlet Master and Improved Shield Bash feats solve that problem.

You are also forgetting people typically wear two gauntlets at once, so attacking with one would not affect the other.


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I'm not sure the latter technically works RAW outside an odd chicken/egg situation where you apply the feats in order then treat it as a shield and not a gauntlet as you attack, the former definitely works though... so you need:

1.Shield Gauntlet Style: allows you to treat your gauntlet as a buckler for feats
2.Upsetting Shield Style: then allows you to treat your "buckler" as a light shield for attacks/feats
which then allows 3.Shield Champion to allow you to throw and return the gauntlet "shield" as a returning weapon(using the Ex ability returning shield)

4.Shielded Gauntlet Attack (Combat)(pre-requisite for):

5.Shielded Gauntlet Master to make this trick work

Edit: 4. also let's you:"The style also allows you to take one attack of opportunity each round that does not count toward your maximum number of attacks of opportunity. This must be used to make an attack with your gauntlet (or spiked gauntlet), or a disarm or steal combat maneuver. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity for performing either combat maneuver, and you are able to attempt a steal combat maneuver with this attack of opportunity despite the maneuver normally requiring a standard action.", pretty sweet pre-requisite for those bonuses.


If I understand your goal, you might find it simpler to buy a Sharding gauntlet.

Silver Crusade

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Gisher wrote:
If I understand your goal, you might find it simpler to buy a Sharding gauntlet.

Yeah, but that's not as cool as your gauntlet literally flying off, striking, and returning back to your fist.


Isonaroc wrote:
Gisher wrote:
If I understand your goal, you might find it simpler to buy a Sharding gauntlet.
Yeah, but that's not as cool as your gauntlet literally flying off, striking, and returning back to your fist.

Exactly.


Does this all mean you can steal a wizards component pouch mid-cast from range because him casting provokes an AOO because he is in range of your flying gauntlet??


Why not just slap the Throwing and Returning enhancements?


Isonaroc wrote:
Gisher wrote:
If I understand your goal, you might find it simpler to buy a Sharding gauntlet.
Yeah, but that's not as cool as your gauntlet literally flying off, striking, and returning back to your fist.

The correct answer

Silver Crusade

JiCi wrote:
Why not just slap the Throwing and Returning enhancements?

Because that allows you a single attack because a returning weapon doesn't come back to you until just before your next turn. This allows you to ricochet your rocket fist and hit as many opponents as you have attacks.

EDUT: I'm so doing this build, by the by.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Isonaroc wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Why not just slap the Throwing and Returning enhancements?

Because that allows you a single attack because a returning weapon doesn't come back to you until just before your next turn. This allows you to ricochet your rocket fist and hit as many opponents as you have attacks.

EDUT: I'm so doing this build, by the by.

I kinda want to see what kind of chaotic encounter this could be on a pack of Vindictive bastards... "our party was succeeding in it's goal of murderhoboing across the countryside until a pack of old ex-paladins fleeced us of everything we had..."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
M1k31 wrote:

I'm not sure the latter technically works RAW outside an odd chicken/egg situation where you apply the feats in order then treat it as a shield and not a gauntlet as you attack, the former definitely works though... so you need:

1.Shield Gauntlet Style: allows you to treat your gauntlet as a buckler for feats
2.Upsetting Shield Style: then allows you to treat your "buckler" as a light shield for attacks/feats
which then allows 3.Shield Champion to allow you to throw and return the gauntlet "shield" as a returning weapon(using the Ex ability returning shield)

4.Shielded Gauntlet Attack (Combat)(pre-requisite for):

5.Shielded Gauntlet Master to make this trick work

Edit: 4. also let's you:"The style also allows you to take one attack of opportunity each round that does not count toward your maximum number of attacks of opportunity. This must be used to make an attack with your gauntlet (or spiked gauntlet), or a disarm or steal combat maneuver. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity for performing either combat maneuver, and you are able to attempt a steal combat maneuver with this attack of opportunity despite the maneuver normally requiring a standard action.", pretty sweet pre-requisite for those bonuses.

Pretty cool!

Since you also need a way to maintain multiple styles at once, you also need Weapon Style Mastery (which requires the Weapon Training class feature), or a dip into Master of Many Styles, right?

So I think this is the fastest way to get this going?:

5 lvls of Shield Champion and 1 lvl of Master of Many Styles, to get the Shield Champion’s throwing abilities and the ability to fuse styles, and the feats: Weapon Focus (Gauntlet/Spiked Gauntlet), Shield Gauntlet Style, Shielded Gauntlet Attack, Shielded Gauntlet Master, and Upsetting Shield Style. (That leaves you with one leftover feat to spare (two if you go human), and you can skip the Upseitting Shield’s dex prerequisite by taking it as your Master of Many Styles feat.)

Does that sound right?


Personally I feel Weapon Style Mastery is the way to go. Brawler has feats for days and that way you do not delay advancement in Martial Flexibility. The ranged Combat Maneuver options help to keep the build interesting in spite of the feat tax.

MoMS also has been nerfed to only gain the base style feats until 6th level


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Diminuendo wrote:
MoMS also has been nerfed to only gain the base style feats until 6th level

Yeah, right. But Unsettling Shield Style is a base style feat, right? (Though it hardly matters; one could use the bonus feat to get Shield Gauntlet Style instead if one preferred.)

Diminuendo wrote:
Personally I feel Weapon Style Mastery is the way to go. Brawler has feats for days and that way you do not delay advancement in Martial Flexibility. The ranged Combat Maneuver options help to keep the build interesting in spite of the feat tax.

So I take it you're thinking of taking the Martial Focus feat to get around the weapon training class feature requirement of Weapon Style Mastery?

But that would require you to wait longer to get things to come online, right?

I.e., that route requires 7 feats to get everything online: Weapon Focus (Gauntlet/Spiked Gauntlet), Shield Gauntlet Style, Shielded Gauntlet Attack, Shielded Gauntlet Master, Upsetting Shield Style, Martial Focus, and Weapon Style Mastery. And a Shield Champion won't have that many feats until level 7 (if they go Human -- 1 from Human, 4 from levels, 2 bonus Brawler feats) or level 8 (if they're not Human -- 4 from levels, 3 bonus Brawler feats).

Or is there a faster way to get things online as a single-classed Shield Champion that I'm missing?


Derp, forgot about the Weapon Training prereq.


Porridge wrote:
Diminuendo wrote:
MoMS also has been nerfed to only gain the base style feats until 6th level

Yeah, right. But Unsettling Shield Style is a base style feat, right? (Though it hardly matters; one could use the bonus feat to get Shield Gauntlet Style instead if one preferred.)

Diminuendo wrote:
Personally I feel Weapon Style Mastery is the way to go. Brawler has feats for days and that way you do not delay advancement in Martial Flexibility. The ranged Combat Maneuver options help to keep the build interesting in spite of the feat tax.

So I take it you're thinking of taking the Martial Focus feat to get around the weapon training class feature requirement of Weapon Style Mastery?

But that would require you to wait longer to get things to come online, right?

I.e., that route requires 7 feats to get everything online: Weapon Focus (Gauntlet/Spiked Gauntlet), Shield Gauntlet Style, Shielded Gauntlet Attack, Shielded Gauntlet Master, Upsetting Shield Style, Martial Focus, and Weapon Style Mastery. And a Shield Champion won't have that many feats until level 7 (if they go Human -- 1 from Human, 4 from levels, 2 bonus Brawler feats) or level 8 (if they're not Human -- 4 from levels, 3 bonus Brawler feats).

Or is there a faster way to get things online as a single-classed Shield Champion that I'm missing?

I've been actually working on this! (Because I plan to make a near-literal Android 16 for a game)

So the full feat breakdown works like this; So the first feat you need to make this all work is Martial Focus which gives you the missing weapon training needed for Weapon Style Mastery which then enables the two style feats (Upsetting Shield Style and Shield Gauntlet Style). However in order for the rocket punch to actually work you need the last step of the gauntlet style (Shielded Gauntlet Master) since without that feat any time you try to throw your "shield" fails since the gauntlet loses its ac bonus and stops being a shield. And then of course you need Weapon Focus in your chosen gauntlet style (Go spiked gauntlet and save yourself, the gm, the group, and the forums a massive headache with how wishy-washy paizo's been on regular gauntlets)

So in grand total you need 7 feats (including shield gaunt style's middle feat) 6 BaB, and 13 dex (15 if you want to further the upsetting style) to get your rocket punch on. Of course you need a few more feats to make it really worth-while but that's the ABSOLUTE minimum.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Diminuendo wrote:
Derp, forgot about the Weapon Training prereq.

Well, you could take the level of MoMS to get things running at 6th level, and then retrain out of it once you have enough feats.

(Though keeping the lvl of MoMS effectively gives you three more feats and a +2 bonus to all of your saves, which might make keeping it tempting. Though, as you note, it does cost you +1 BAB and a level of Brawler progression.... hrmm...)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Re DeusTerran: what do you think about the MoMS dip route? That only requires 5 feats, and gets around the BAB requirement. And it allows you to gets things working at lvl 6, and leaves you with 1 (2 if human) feats to spare.


Porridge wrote:
Re DeusTerran: what do you think about the MoMS dip route? That only requires 5 feats, and gets around the BAB requirement. And it allows you to gets things working at lvl 6, and leaves you with 1 (2 If human) feats to spare.

Personally for the Shield Champ archetype specifically I'd stay full brawler so that way the lvl 12 part of returning shield keys off sooner, because flurrying with your "shield" and using your strike damage instead of the bash damage is great

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