"counts as Weapon Focus"


Advice


The last couple of years have a bunch of feat options with the "counts as X Feat for prerequisite purposes" language, which has wonderfully opened up options for getting into feat chains with boring and/or weak prerequisites, or just for getting into them without having to make a character extra MAD just for a single prerequisite feat that won't even get used.

That said, is anyone aware of anything that counts as weapon focus and/or dazzling display (besides nightmare weaver, which is even harder and more feat intensive)?

I'm working on a Serial Killer Vigilante, who I want to have Shatter Defenses for obvious reasons, but I don't expect to ever use Dazzling Display, and I know that we'll likely be having entire levels of play without access to our standard gear, so Weapon Focus is likely to be a dead feat half the time for me as well. And I'd love to do something more interesting with my mid-level feats than just build toward level 9ish when I'll finally become interesting to play.


There is a rogue talent that actually grants you weapon focus. That is all i am aware of. I hope that helps.
Except from that or abilities that grant you access to a feat for X minutes (check thé brawler), idk any way to overcome weapon focus/dazzling display d'or shatter défenses. Or maybe check some style feats, one géants you free intimidante check when you attack


Weapon focus is a pretty good feat though. It turns 1 out of 20 misses into hits.


Melkiador wrote:
Weapon focus is a pretty good feat though. It turns 1 out of 20 misses into hits.

Better than that, actually.

Let's say you're currently hitting on a 3. You take Weapon Focus and now you hit on a 2. Before, you were missing 10% of the time. Now you're missing 5% of the time. So in this situation is turns 1 out of 2 misses into hits.


One could couple an ioun stone with a Wayfinder to get weapon focus for a mere 2000gp.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Weapon focus is a pretty good feat though. It turns 1 out of 20 misses into hits.

Better than that, actually.

Let's say you're currently hitting on a 3. You take Weapon Focus and now you hit on a 2. Before, you were missing 10% of the time. Now you're missing 5% of the time. So in this situation is turns 1 out of 2 misses into hits.

No. The +1 would only be relevant when you roll the 2, because it would now count as 3. And you have a 1 out of 20 chance of rolling a 2 on a 20 sided die.

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Weapon focus is a pretty good feat though. It turns 1 out of 20 misses into hits.

Better than that, actually.

Let's say you're currently hitting on a 3. You take Weapon Focus and now you hit on a 2. Before, you were missing 10% of the time. Now you're missing 5% of the time. So in this situation is turns 1 out of 2 misses into hits.

No. The +1 would only be relevant when you roll the 2, because it would now count as 3. And you have a 1 out of 20 chance of rolling a 2 on a 20 sided die.

Melkiador - Your initial entry said "1 out of 20 misses" if you only missed on a 1,2, or 3... thats all you should count on a ratio of the number of misses... so Matthew is correct, in his instance your 1 in 20 misses was wrong, because it would help in 6 or 7 (6 and 2/3) of 20 misses. If you had instead said "1 in 20 attacks", than your clarification would be relevant.


ZanThrax wrote:

The last couple of years have a bunch of feat options with the "counts as X Feat for prerequisite purposes" language, which has wonderfully opened up options for getting into feat chains with boring and/or weak prerequisites, or just for getting into them without having to make a character extra MAD just for a single prerequisite feat that won't even get used.

That said, is anyone aware of anything that counts as weapon focus and/or dazzling display (besides nightmare weaver, which is even harder and more feat intensive)?

I'm working on a Serial Killer Vigilante, who I want to have Shatter Defenses for obvious reasons, but I don't expect to ever use Dazzling Display, and I know that we'll likely be having entire levels of play without access to our standard gear, so Weapon Focus is likely to be a dead feat half the time for me as well. And I'd love to do something more interesting with my mid-level feats than just build toward level 9ish when I'll finally become interesting to play.

If you select Weapon Focus (Improvised Weapon), you can use it with almost no provisions.

Weapon Focus (Sling) has free weapon and ammo.

/cevah


> Weapon Focus (Improvised Weapon)

That's an interesting idea. Would certainly be on-theme for a serial killer character to specialize in hitting people with technically-not-a-weapon. At higher levels, once I get Grisly Murder, I could use a joker pencil trick to trigger Twisting Fear as an efficient way of switching from a conversation to a fight.

I think I might even change my level one feat to Catch Off Guard and run with this idea. I wasn't ever sure that Frightening Ambush was going to be of much use to me anyhow.


I'm using Ancestral Weapon Mastery Which gives Weapon Focus to any of your racial weapons with my Dwarf fighter right now.


That would certainly be a good option to minimize the risk of being stuck without access to a focused weapon down the road if I hadn't locked in my race before anything else. Good call phantom.


Quote:

Weapon Focus (Combat)

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Might need to clear Weapon Focus (Improvised Weapon) with your DM first. I’m not sure it’s a legal choice.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd have to pick a specific type of improvised weapon. Weapon Focus (Tankard) would be a valid choice, for example.


Quote:

Weapon Focus (Combat)

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

I'm more curious about wording here and needing to be proficient with selected weapon actually. Is there something out there that actually gives you 'Proficiency with improvised weapons' and not just stuff that lowers your penalties?


Improvised Weapon Proficiency (3pp):

Improvised Weapon Proficiency (Combat) wrote:

You can use anything as a weapon.

Prerequisite: Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything
Benefit: Gain proficiency in improvised weapons. In addition, gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls with improvised weapons.
Special: This ability counts as having the Weapon Focus feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Normal: A character with Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything simply ignores penalties for using improvised weapons instead of gaining proficiency in them.

This solves the problem. but is 3rd party.

/cevah


phantom1592 wrote:
Is there something out there that actually gives you 'Proficiency with improvised weapons' and not just stuff that lowers your penalties?

Well... That's complicated. Have you looked at the proficiency feats? They don't actually grant proficiency:

" You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty"
"Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)."
"Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally."

Catch off-guard/Throw anything says "You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised [melee/ranged] weapon."

So you can easily be 'proficient' in improvised weapons [making attack rolls with the weapon normally] without it being called out as such, just like when you take one of the proficiency feats. And core says "A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls." ;)

PS: Cevah's Improvised Weapon Proficiency (3pp) is most likely a much less controversial method though.


graystone wrote:
Have you looked at the proficiency feats? They don't actually grant proficiency:

Quite frankly, that's a crystal clear case of RAW not working. The weapon proficiency feats at least do something*, the armor proficiency feats only repeat the general rule what happens if you are not proficient, without stating any actual effect. But maybe that's a good thing, because for instance witches gain light armor prof as a bonus feat, according to it's special line, and likewise with medium and heavy armor prof and archetypes that trade out proficiencies.

*) Although exotic weapon prof is also about as vague as humanly possible, and simple weapon prof has the shield master problem in that literal interpretations means you can ignore every penalty.

It's one of the dozens, maybe hundreds of times were they try to make fluffy descriptions as rules, and then everything breaks down because they don't copy the entire rules section. Most of the natural attack options for players have that problem (the worst being animal fury).

When the RAW simply don't work, we shouldn't derive guidelines from their wording. If you want to keep the game (or at least the feats) functional, it's mandatory to use RAI and treat feats with "proficiency" in their names as simply straight up granting, well, proficiency.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

There are multiple 100+ post threads on whether or not WF Improvised Weapon is legal, RAW, etc with no consensus. Both sides would be convinced, but no agreement.


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We know weapon focus grapple exists. But is anyone or everyone proficient in grapple?

Silver Crusade

Why not just taking Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]?

Anyway, an option is to go Slayer and select the Menacing Ranger Combat Style feats. At 6th level you can take Shatter Defenses without having to satisfy the prerequisites.


Derklord wrote:
Quite frankly, that's a crystal clear case of RAW not working.

IMO, it's no problem if proficiency truly equals being able to attack without penalties. The only thing that can be seen as non-working are other instances where you are allowed to attack without penalty if such situations aren't meant to also provide 'proficiency'.

From my perspective, it's all 'fixed' by treating everything alike. In this situation, that's means proficiency applies in these kind of situations. I've seen other disagree so this is one situation I'd actually like to see an FAQ: The sections on proficiency are pure copies from 3.5 so finding out the current teams perspective on it would at least give a baseline to start from.

PS: I LOVE how exotic weapon proficiency prevents you from attacking with the weapon abnormally... No non-lethal damage for you! ;)


Gray Warden wrote:

Why not just taking Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]?

Anyway, an option is to go Slayer and select the Menacing Ranger Combat Style feats. At 6th level you can take Shatter Defenses without having to satisfy the prerequisites.

I was strongly considering it. But decided against it as I'm intentionally not multiclassing for this character as we are expected to actually reach level 20 in the end. Plus, I don't want to delay Grisly Murder.


graystone wrote:
IMO, it's no problem if proficiency truly equals being able to attack without penalties. (...) From my perspective, it's all 'fixed' by treating everything alike.

That's indeed how it should be in my opinion, but it sadly goes against what's written. Dwarf Oracle, Hobgoblin Rogue, and Kitsune Oracle FCB all explicitly state that you get the feats when you've lowered the non-proficiency penalty to 0 (of course, this ignores that the feat's don't grant actual proficiency...). The Combat Competence AWT actually grants proficiency at 0 non-prof penalty.

This hints at 0 penalty itself not being enough to count as proficienct.

The proficiency feats also straight up need errata. The benefits section of all proficiency feats should read "You gain proficiency with X (see page 140).", or "Choose one type of Exotic Weapon. You gain proficiency with the chosen weapon (see page 140)." All special sections should be completely removed.

graystone wrote:
PS: I LOVE how exotic weapon proficiency prevents you from attacking with the weapon abnormally... No non-lethal damage for you! ;)

Yeah, who wants to use an exotic weapon like that, when simple weapon prof removes the penalties for TWF, Power Attack, secondary natural attacks, nonlethal damage, and even iterative attacks!

Silver Crusade

ZanThrax wrote:
Gray Warden wrote:

Why not just taking Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]?

Anyway, an option is to go Slayer and select the Menacing Ranger Combat Style feats. At 6th level you can take Shatter Defenses without having to satisfy the prerequisites.

I was strongly considering it. But decided against it as I'm intentionally not multiclassing for this character as we are expected to actually reach level 20 in the end. Plus, I don't want to delay Grisly Murder.

I was actually suggesting to go all the way Slayer instead of Vigilante. Unless you specifically want to play the Serial Killer ARCHETYPE, you can easily play a serial killer CHARACTER using the Slayer instead.

Both have Sneak Attack, Studied Combat, 6+Int kill points and the assassin look. Furthermore, Slayer has full BAB, d10 hit dice, Quarry, Assassinate (which is essentially the same as Death Attack) and gives you Shatter Defenses at 6th level and Dreadful Carnage at 10th level (instead of 11th) without having to satisfy the prerequisites, plus a few extra Slayer talents (which include Catch Off-Guard).

On the other hand, Vigilante stuff can be easily emulated through role-play. Leaving a card after a kill, or your reputation, don't need to be hard-coded into game mechanics.


I originally had him written up as a slayer; I switched to Vigilante for the talents, especially Twisting Fear. Slayers and Inquisitors are pretty good at intimidate - Vigilantes are so much better at it that they can make it cause damage.


Derklord wrote:
This hints at 0 penalty itself not being enough to count as proficienct.

To me, I took it as hinting the opposite, that if you can manage to reduce penalties to 0 you're proficient. Without a 'normal' section like in feats it's not definitive and with the number of times he game points out things as a reminder* I can't see it as obviously pointing out that those abilities are exceptions.

* like a monk being able to attack "with fist, elbows, knees, and feet" or "may make unarmed strikes with his hands full", things mentioned elsewhere so it was just a reminder in monk text.

ZanThrax: Yep, if you're focusing in intimidation then Twisting Fear is WELL worth it.


ZanThrax wrote:
I originally had him written up as a slayer; I switched to Vigilante for the talents, especially Twisting Fear. Slayers and Inquisitors are pretty good at intimidate - Vigilantes are so much better at it that they can make it cause damage.

So can Inquisitors.

Silver Crusade

ZanThrax wrote:
I originally had him written up as a slayer; I switched to Vigilante for the talents, especially Twisting Fear. Slayers and Inquisitors are pretty good at intimidate - Vigilantes are so much better at it that they can make it cause damage.

To be honest, I think that the Ranger Combat Style bonus feats, the higher BAB and quicker Studied Combat progression are better than the extra d4s to damage once or twice per enemy (since multiple demoralise checks do not increase the fear level and instead increase the DC by 5 each time).

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