Double Crossbow and Shadowshooting: Might be OP?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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So, there was a time not too long ago where gunslingers could literally double every single one of their attacks using a double-barreled pistol/musket/shotgun. That was pretty silly, but understandably this has been nerfed.

This was not applied to the Double Crossbow. Probably because it has different rules and a pretty restrictive load time, which simply couldn’t be avoided at all.

Double Crossbow wrote:

Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.

Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.

Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.

Pretty much, nothing could get you to the free reload time to make a full attack. Essentially rendering this useless as a weapon.

Until Shadowshooting

Shadowshooting wrote:

Restriction This special ability can only be added to ranged projectile weapons (including slings and sling-like weapons).

Black smoke constantly wafts from the firing mechanism of a shadowshooting weapon.

A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again. This doesn’t prevent a shadowshooting weapon from firing ordinary projectiles appropriate to the weapon.

Ammunition created by this ability is only quasi-real, and the first time each round an opponent is hit by a piece of ammunition that this ability has created, it can attempt a Will saving throw to disbelieve (DC = 15 + the weapon’s enhancement bonus). A failed Will saving throw means the weapon deals damage normally, while success means the weapon deals minimum damage against that opponent for 1 round.

Highlighted the most important part of Shadowshooting for your convenience.

With a Shadowshooting double crossbow, it looks like you can simulate the original double-barreled firearms ability to attack twice (kinda, it’s really just dealing damage twice, much like Manyshot), unleashing a stupid amount of damage output if you’re playing, say, a Bolt Ace. And if you are, you probably don’t care much about the -4 to attack rolls, since you can target touch AC by spending grit.

So, who is taking bets on which of these options is getting nerfed?


Take a look at the minotaur double crossbow for bolt aces.

No need for shadowshooting.


And each time the enemy makes its will saving throw - which is going to happen more and more often the higher your level, since enemy will save bonuses way outscale a meager [15 + enhancement bonus] - you do minimum damage for a round. And with a crossbow, you don't even get a static strength bonus to damage.

So, you need a third factor: A high, static/non-variable damage boost.

I'd rather go with Endless Ammunition:

Endless Ammunition wrote:

Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.

I mean, yes, it also says "This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon.", but that is right after it explains how you can still use normal arrows and bolts with it, so unless there's a FAQ stating otherwise, I'd assume it only applies if you actually load the weapon with something (which you don't need to).


Bolt Ace adds your Dexterity modifier to damage with crossbows. Also, Endless Ammunition just generates the ammo, but you still need to go through the motions of reloading it, so it isn’t as exploitable as shadowshooting.

Additionally, the 1d8 of a crossbow is going to be pretty meager, so only added damage like bane and flaming are going to be negatively affected by shadowshooting (and even then, it does just add an amount of damage equal to the dice anyway).

Also, minotaur double crossbows don’t have a listed weapon entry or price, so I’m hesitant to really base a character off them. Though if you did get your hands on one, obviously it would be much stronger.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, Endless Ammunition just generates the ammo, but you still need to go through the motions of reloading it, so it isn’t as exploitable as shadowshooting.

"A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again."

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition."

I'm not seeing the difference. The "This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon." is irrelevant for this, since you do not need to load ("the weapon’s wielder never needs to load" - you can load it, if you want to use special ammunition, and then it takes the usual time, but you don't need to), and firing the crossbow is just aiming and pulling the trigger as often as BAB allows.

Dark Archive

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, minotaur double crossbows don’t have a listed weapon entry or price, so I’m hesitant to really base a character off them. Though if you did get your hands on one, obviously it would be much stronger.

Actually, they do. It is printed in Classic Monsters Revisited (and only there) on page 42. Exotic Weapon, 300gp, etc, etc. It is even PFS legal according to the Additional Resources.


Sure, fair enough. Maybe I’m thinking that the fact that it doesn’t change the time to load or fire affects this in some way, but maybe not. I guess one thing against Endless Ammunition is that it’s a +2 special ability rather than the +1 of shadowshooting. Of the two, shadowshooting is still the cheapest.

Grand Lodge

Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, minotaur double crossbows don’t have a listed weapon entry or price, so I’m hesitant to really base a character off them. Though if you did get your hands on one, obviously it would be much stronger.
Actually, they do. It is printed in Classic Monsters Revisited (and only there) on page 42. Exotic Weapon, 300gp, etc, etc. It is even PFS legal according to the Additional Resources.

Very much this. The Minotaur Double crossbow both has stats and is PFS legal. It's just from an incredibly obscure source book.

Liberty's Edge

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, Endless Ammunition just generates the ammo, but you still need to go through the motions of reloading it, so it isn’t as exploitable as shadowshooting.

"A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again."

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition."

I'm not seeing the difference. The "This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon." is irrelevant for this, since you do not need to load ("the weapon’s wielder never needs to load" - you can load it, if you want to use special ammunition, and then it takes the usual time, but you don't need to), and firing the crossbow is just aiming and pulling the trigger as often as BAB allows.

While I'm not against the idea of helping crossbows not suck, I think the idea here would be that the one shooting something physical still has to be pulled back and locked in whatever manner is appropriate, which is what consumes the time. Actually nocking the bolt isn't time-consuming as shown by bows being a free action to reload.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, minotaur double crossbows don’t have a listed weapon entry or price, so I’m hesitant to really base a character off them. Though if you did get your hands on one, obviously it would be much stronger.
Actually, they do. It is printed in Classic Monsters Revisited (and only there) on page 42. Exotic Weapon, 300gp, etc, etc. It is even PFS legal according to the Additional Resources.
Very much this. The Minotaur Double crossbow both has stats and is PFS legal. It's just from an incredibly obscure source book.

It's because the double crossbow has actually been reprinted quite a few times. It's in Ultimate Equipment, under simply "double crossbow".


It hardly seems as absurd as double pistols. You have to pay for a +1 weapon ability which puts this out of low levels, and you have to target regular AC, so the -4 matters.

The bolt ace needs to spend grit to target touch ac, and I don't see spending 2 grit per attack to be sustainable for very long :).

This just seems like a nice mid-game power to let crossbow users compete with bows. You can finally make a guy that uses a heavy crossbow!


So compared to a heavy crossbow bolt ace (let's say with the flaming property just to make it easy) you're doing an extra Dex-7 damage on average per attack at the cost of -4 to hit. So at 40 Dex it's got the same value as deadly aim.

If you can regularly get your enemies to fail the shadowshoot DC then you're essentially adding your dex mod for free a second time and you only need 24 Dex to make it as valuable as deadly aim, but doing that is going to be pretty iffy.

You're also losing some range and gaining some weight but those don't matter too much.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:

And each time the enemy makes its will saving throw - which is going to happen more and more often the higher your level, since enemy will save bonuses way outscale a meager [15 + enhancement bonus] - you do minimum damage for a round. And with a crossbow, you don't even get a static strength bonus to damage.

So, you need a third factor: A high, static/non-variable damage boost.

I'd rather go with Endless Ammunition:

Endless Ammunition wrote:

Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.

I mean, yes, it also says "This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon.", but that is right after it explains how you can still use normal arrows and bolts with it, so unless there's a FAQ stating otherwise, I'd assume it only applies if you actually load the weapon with something (which you don't need to).

I can't believe I never knew about this. This may solve the hole in a build I have been thinking about for a while.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Sure, fair enough. Maybe I’m thinking that the fact that it doesn’t change the time to load or fire affects this in some way, but maybe not. I guess one thing against Endless Ammunition is that it’s a +2 special ability rather than the +1 of shadowshooting. Of the two, shadowshooting is still the cheapest.

As the weapon is able to do more damage, and higher level monsters are more easily able to make the save the average damage of endless ammo will outpace the shadowshooting ability more and more. It's more than worth the investment.

If you GM allows for retraining you can train out some of the feats that would have allowed you to reload a crossbow quickly. I wouldn't pick up the bow myself unless I already had the money to get it enhanced. Before that its just not a good option.

Alternately you can start off with shadowshooting, and trade it in for an endless shooting variant at some point.


Knight Magenta wrote:

It hardly seems as absurd as double pistols. You have to pay for a +1 weapon ability which puts this out of low levels, and you have to target regular AC, so the -4 matters.

The bolt ace needs to spend grit to target touch ac, and I don't see spending 2 grit per attack to be sustainable for very long :).

This just seems like a nice mid-game power to let crossbow users compete with bows. You can finally make a guy that uses a heavy crossbow!

It's only one attack just like with manyshot. If the attack hits you just take damage twice.

double crossbow wrote:
If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts
Manyshot wrote:
If the attack hits, both arrows hit.

In both cases one attack gets you a hit from two projectiles and damage from both projectiles.

Grand Lodge

Dark Midian wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, minotaur double crossbows don’t have a listed weapon entry or price, so I’m hesitant to really base a character off them. Though if you did get your hands on one, obviously it would be much stronger.
Actually, they do. It is printed in Classic Monsters Revisited (and only there) on page 42. Exotic Weapon, 300gp, etc, etc. It is even PFS legal according to the Additional Resources.
Very much this. The Minotaur Double crossbow both has stats and is PFS legal. It's just from an incredibly obscure source book.
It's because the double crossbow has actually been reprinted quite a few times. It's in Ultimate Equipment, under simply "double crossbow".

Not the same weapon unless you have something clarifying otherwise. Different name, different flavor, different mechanics, and different range. Unless you have something clarifying that it's supposed to replace the minotaur double crossbow, it doesn't.

I mean, look at Pact Wizards and the Dueling weapon enhancements. When we have some options with the exact same name that don't replace each other, I just don't think you can say that this crossbow with a completely different name is being replaced here.


Knight Magenta wrote:
This just seems like a nice mid-game power to let crossbow users compete with bows. You can finally make a guy that uses a heavy crossbow!

Heavy crossbow with free action reload is easy, even at first. Take an elf with Crossbow Training alternate racial trait [heavy crossbow as reload a move action, free with rapid reload] and your first feat Rapid Reload... Done.


Minotaur double crossbow is listed as double crossbow and has the same stats as the double crossbow in the ultimate equipment guide, save for the line with crossbow mastery. Crossbow mastery didn't exist when the minotaur double crossbow was printed.

It's a pretty logical assumption that they are the same weapon. I wouldn't make a PFS character based on it (partly because I wouldn't want to spend $13 to have the source book) and that the GM could rule against me anyways.

Grand Lodge

nicholas storm wrote:

Minotaur double crossbow is listed as double crossbow and has the same stats as the double crossbow in the ultimate equipment guide, save for the line with crossbow mastery. Crossbow mastery didn't exist when the minotaur double crossbow was printed.

It's a pretty logical assumption that they are the same weapon. I wouldn't make a PFS character based on it (partly because I wouldn't want to spend $13 to have the source book) and that the GM could rule against me anyways.

It's different name, range, penalties, and flavor text say otherwise. You can make whatever ruling you want for your home game, but unless there's a clarification saying that one is meant to replace the other, it doesnt.

It's perfectly fine in PFS as any judge ruling against you is breaking the rules. 2 legal and differently named weapons are not the same thing unless we're explicitly told otherwise.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Also, Endless Ammunition just generates the ammo, but you still need to go through the motions of reloading it, so it isn’t as exploitable as shadowshooting.

"A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again."

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition."

I'm not seeing the difference. The "This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon." is irrelevant for this, since you do not need to load ("the weapon’s wielder never needs to load" - you can load it, if you want to use special ammunition, and then it takes the usual time, but you don't need to), and firing the crossbow is just aiming and pulling the trigger as often as BAB allows.

I'm not sure exactly how you aren't catching this difference(as it appears pretty Obvious and intentional) But I don't think endless ammunition can work with the double crossbow:

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single..."

You aren't nocking the double crossbow twice as it fires both shots simultaneously, so you at best would be firing a single bolt or reloading the second one each time.(at least if I'm not misunderstanding something)


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:

Minotaur double crossbow is listed as double crossbow and has the same stats as the double crossbow in the ultimate equipment guide, save for the line with crossbow mastery. Crossbow mastery didn't exist when the minotaur double crossbow was printed.

It's a pretty logical assumption that they are the same weapon. I wouldn't make a PFS character based on it (partly because I wouldn't want to spend $13 to have the source book) and that the GM could rule against me anyways.

It's different name, range, penalties, and flavor text say otherwise. You can make whatever ruling you want for your home game, but unless there's a clarification saying that one is meant to replace the other, it doesnt.

It's perfectly fine in PFS as any judge ruling against you is breaking the rules. 2 legal and differently named weapons are not the same thing unless we're explicitly told otherwise.

It's totally clear that the double crossbow is an updated version of the 3.5 minotaur double crossbow. Do as much mental gymnastics as you'd like.

Grand Lodge

Dark Midian wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
nicholas storm wrote:

Minotaur double crossbow is listed as double crossbow and has the same stats as the double crossbow in the ultimate equipment guide, save for the line with crossbow mastery. Crossbow mastery didn't exist when the minotaur double crossbow was printed.

It's a pretty logical assumption that they are the same weapon. I wouldn't make a PFS character based on it (partly because I wouldn't want to spend $13 to have the source book) and that the GM could rule against me anyways.

It's different name, range, penalties, and flavor text say otherwise. You can make whatever ruling you want for your home game, but unless there's a clarification saying that one is meant to replace the other, it doesnt.

It's perfectly fine in PFS as any judge ruling against you is breaking the rules. 2 legal and differently named weapons are not the same thing unless we're explicitly told otherwise.

It's totally clear that the double crossbow is an updated version of the 3.5 minotaur double crossbow. Do as much mental gymnastics as you'd like.

You may see it as clear in your opinion, but it's not objectively clear. In fact I can't think of a single other item in Pathfinder that replaced a previously printed version yet used a different name. Not one that wasn't specifically called out as doing so anyways.

So if it's intended to be a reprint to replace it then it's a completely unique case that was handled differently than every other reprint in Pathfinder. Yeah, not seeing that as more likely than them being 2 separate weapons from different sources.

And as an aside, though it was written in the 3.5 era, it's still very much from a Pathfinder book. So if your group doesn't allow any of that material than obviously it's not allowed. But if the standard is any Pathfinder book or for PFS where the book is legal, than yes, you can use it.


I think the fact that it was printed in the 3.5 era makes it less of an easy argument to some GM’s, who do have reasonable grounds to exclude it. I’m in such a game and I do have reservations including it when double crossbows also exist within post 3.5 content.

M1k31 wrote:

I'm not sure exactly how you aren't catching this difference(as it appears pretty Obvious and intentional) But I don't think endless ammunition can work with the double crossbow:

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single..."

You aren't nocking the double crossbow twice as it fires both shots simultaneously, so you at best would be firing a single bolt or reloading the second one each time.(at least if I'm not misunderstanding something)

Yeah, that seems like it’s a bit odd when applied to double crossbows. I would think that if you notched each crossbow it would produce ammunition for that crossbow, but I couldn’t really say since it is clearly wasn’t written with double crossbows (and apparently repeating crossbows) in mind.

Grand Lodge

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
I think the fact that it was printed in the 3.5 era makes it less of an easy argument to some GM’s, who do have reasonable grounds to exclude it. I’m in such a game and I do have reservations including it when double crossbows also exist within post 3.5 content.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that a GM shouldn't exclude it if he deems it too good. I was simply objecting that the Minotaur Double Crossbow clearly isn't it's own weapon and is meant to be replaced by the Double Crossbow from the APG. Each GM obviously is perfectly within their rights to say you can't use "x" supplements for their game or "x" options from said supplements.

I will however hold absolutely that it's legal in PFS unless clarified otherwise. Because Classic Monster's Revisited is a legal source book and they are 2 weapons with different names and mechanical differences.


graystone wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:
This just seems like a nice mid-game power to let crossbow users compete with bows. You can finally make a guy that uses a heavy crossbow!
Heavy crossbow with free action reload is easy, even at first. Take an elf with Crossbow Training alternate racial trait [heavy crossbow as reload a move action, free with rapid reload] and your first feat Rapid Reload... Done.

Where did you find the crossbow training alternate racial trait? I can find it anywhere.

Silver Crusade Contributor

It's from Ruins of Azlant - it's for Mordant Spire elves. ^_^


Dustin Heaton wrote:
While I'm not against the idea of helping crossbows not suck, I think the idea here would be that the one shooting something physical still has to be pulled back and locked in whatever manner is appropriate, which is what consumes the time. Actually nocking the bolt isn't time-consuming as shown by bows being a free action to reload.
M1k31 wrote:

I'm not sure exactly how you aren't catching this difference(as it appears pretty Obvious and intentional) But I don't think endless ammunition can work with the double crossbow:

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single..."

You aren't nocking the double crossbow twice as it fires both shots simultaneously, so you at best would be firing a single bolt or reloading the second one each time.(at least if I'm not misunderstanding something)

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Yeah, that seems like it’s a bit odd when applied to double crossbows. I would think that if you notched each crossbow it would produce ammunition for that crossbow, but I couldn’t really say since it is clearly wasn’t written with double crossbows (and apparently repeating crossbows) in mind.

"A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again."

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition."

Either:
1) Both work, because you don't need to load the weapon, or
2) Neither works, because "loading" does not allow you to fire the crossbow without nocking it first. (Shadowshooting would create a bolt, but the crossbow string would still be limp.)


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Kalindlara wrote:
It's from Ruins of Azlant - it's for Mordant Spire elves. ^_^

AP #124, City in the Deep, pg #79. I'm not sure why it got missed on the online sites.

Liberty's Edge

Endless Ammunition wrote:

"Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired."

The endless ammunition ability "does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon". Attempts to explain that away are implausibly reaching. Especially with the text about still needing to nock the weapon. Or as Mark Seifter put it;

It creates a new projectile "each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked", so it still takes the same time to nock or wind or load up the thing; it just magically produces the ammunition itself for you.

Shadowshooting wrote:

This special ability can only be added to ranged projectile weapons (including slings and sling-like weapons).

Black smoke constantly wafts from the firing mechanism of a shadowshooting weapon.

A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again. This doesn’t prevent a shadowshooting weapon from firing ordinary projectiles appropriate to the weapon.

Ammunition created by this ability is only quasi-real, and the first time each round an opponent is hit by a piece of ammunition that this ability has created, it can attempt a Will saving throw to disbelieve (DC = 15 + the weapon’s enhancement bonus). A failed Will saving throw means the weapon deals damage normally, while success means the weapon deals minimum damage against that opponent for 1 round.

The text makes it quite clear that the ammunition created by shadowshooting is already loaded and ready to be fired.

Finally, Endless Ammunition has 'Minor Creation' as a pre-req, implying that it is simply creating the ammunition, not loading it. Shadowshooting has 'Shadow Weapon' for the creation and 'Reloading Hands' for the loading.

Endless Ammunition does not allow you to full attack with a crossbow. Shadowshooting does.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Endless Ammunition wrote:

"Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired."

The endless ammunition ability "does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon". Attempts to explain that away are implausibly reaching.

So, you just ignore the part where it says "the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition"? If I don't need to do it, I don't need to spend time on it. And the firing itself is trivial.

"This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon" comes right after a sentence describing how you can still use other ammunition with the weapon, in a paragraph entirely describing the use of other ammunition with the weapon.
If I load the weapon (to use other ammunition) it still takes the regular time, but only if I want to use other ammunition.

CBDunkerson wrote:

Especially with the text about still needing to nock the weapon. Or as Mark Seifter put it;

It creates a new projectile "each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked", so it still takes the same time to nock or wind or load up the thing; it just magically produces the ammunition itself for you.

I am actually happy to give my take on rules questions. But I've mentioned several times before that it's always just my opinion and holds no official weight. I will have to consider revoking my decision to weigh in if people claim these answers as official when they are not, so I'll be watching carefully. If you want more rules answers here, please don't go elsewhere and claim it's official.

So yeah, no.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Shadowshooting wrote:

This special ability can only be added to ranged projectile weapons (including slings and sling-like weapons).

Black smoke constantly wafts from the firing mechanism of a shadowshooting weapon.

A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again. This doesn’t prevent a shadowshooting weapon from firing ordinary projectiles appropriate to the weapon.

Ammunition created by this ability is only quasi-real, and the first time each round an opponent is hit by a piece of ammunition that this ability has created, it can attempt a Will saving throw to disbelieve (DC = 15 + the weapon’s enhancement bonus). A failed Will saving throw means the weapon deals damage normally, while success means the weapon deals minimum damage against that opponent for 1 round.

The text makes it quite clear that the ammunition created by shadowshooting is already loaded and ready to be fired.

Finally, Endless Ammunition has 'Minor Creation' as a pre-req, implying that it is simply creating the ammunition, not loading it. Shadowshooting has 'Shadow Weapon' for the creation and 'Reloading Hands' for the loading.

Endless Ammunition does not allow you to full attack with a crossbow. Shadowshooting does.

The text says that it doesn't need to be reloaded - literally the same thing Endless Ammunition says. One of those is a +2 ability with additional restriction (only bows and crossbows), the other is just +1 (for every projectile weapon). It's obvious that one should be better than the other, and the "will save for partial damage" doesn't cut it since you can just bypass it with static damage boosts.

Liberty's Edge

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
So, you just ignore the part where it says "the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition"?

No, I put that in its proper context. You leave off the preceding text; "Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so...".

With this context we can see that it is simply saying that they don't need to provide ammunition because it is automatically created when they go through the process of readying the weapon to fire. However, they still need to ready the weapon or the ammunition isn't created. Hence the separate statement that the ability specifically does not reduce loading or firing time.

Quote:
If I don't need to do it, I don't need to spend time on it.

Errr... if you don't go through the motions of loading the weapon then no ammunition is created. So... sure... you can fire the empty weapon just fine if you want to misinterpret the ability that willfully.

Quote:
"This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon" comes right after a sentence describing how you can still use other ammunition with the weapon, in a paragraph entirely describing the use of other ammunition with the weapon.

The paragraph is NOT "entirely describing the use of other ammunition with the weapon". The next two sentences after that are about created ammunition. In any case, the text says "This ability". What ability is it referring to? Seems clear to me that it is the Endless Ammunition ability. So let's swap that in, 'Endless Ammunition does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon'.

Quote:
So yeah, no.

Because Mark Seifter isn't likely to have any clue, right?


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
M1k31 wrote:

I'm not sure exactly how you aren't catching this difference(as it appears pretty Obvious and intentional) But I don't think endless ammunition can work with the double crossbow:

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single..."

You aren't nocking the double crossbow twice as it fires both shots simultaneously, so you at best would be firing a single bolt or reloading the second one each time.(at least if I'm not misunderstanding something)

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Yeah, that seems like it’s a bit odd when applied to double crossbows. I would think that if you notched each crossbow it would produce ammunition for that crossbow, but I couldn’t really say since it is clearly wasn’t written with double crossbows (and apparently repeating crossbows) in mind.

"A shadowshooting weapon never needs to be reloaded; after a shot is fired, this smoke immediately coalesces into the ammunition required to fire the weapon again."

"Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon’s wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition."

Either:
1) Both work, because you don't need to load the weapon, or
2) Neither works, because "loading" does not allow you to fire the crossbow without nocking it first. (Shadowshooting would create a bolt, but the crossbow string would still be limp.)

Again, I'm referring to the text, which in the case of endless ammunition requires that the weapon be "nocked" I take this to mean winched/cranked in the case of crossbows as the ammunition isn't there to actually put in the notch until AFTER this happens. in the case of a double crossbow I'm pretty sure you don't have 2 winching mechanisms if you are able to release both strings simultaneously, which means you only "nock" the weapon once.

The text immediately following the requirement to "nock" the weapon is quite clear... a single piece of ammunition is created when "nocking" occurs.

Shadowshooting does not have this limitation, instead requiring a "shot" be fired... you shoot 2 bolts so 2 bolts coalesce.

this means that RAW, Endless ammunition does not work with double crossbows(or any 2 shot weapon) correctly without further rules clarification that it can create a second bolt by RAI... as this was an "is this an OP rules interaction" thread I would not immediately presume RAI either way as to whether the Double crossbow can use endless ammunition, but Shadow shooting doesn't have a RAW issue... Endless Ammunition clearly does.


CBDunkerson wrote:
No, I put that in its proper context. You leave off the preceding text; "Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so...".

And I take that part as flavor text. Why?

Because literally every rule about crossbow reloading talks about reloading, not about nocking the crossbow. Shadow Shooting doesn't mention nocking at all, it just provides ammunition, and still everyone takes the nocking for granted.
I think it's more likely that whoever wrote it considered crossbows an afterthought, and didn't consider that realistically, the nocking is the hard part of getting a crossbow ready.
Luckily, I can jump from "this is how I think this should work" to legalese RAW - nowhere does it say what action it is to nock a crossbow - it just kinda happens at the side. We only know what action it is to load a crossbow. And Endless Ammunition says you never need to load.

CBDunkerson wrote:
The paragraph is NOT "entirely describing the use of other ammunition with the weapon". The next two sentences after that are about created ammunition.

Ah, true, it just follows a sentence about regular ammunition. Which I still think it refers to, which is why it's placed there instead of right after "never needs to load", where a general restriction on "you don't need to load" would make more sense. Or even better, they could have said "you don't need ammunition to load this weapon", skipping any later time-taken explanations entirely. But they didn't, so I don't think that's what they meant.

Instead, it's "You don't need to load the weapon." > "But you can load it if you want to." > "Loading it (if you do so) takes the usual amount of time."
It means you don't get to skip reload time on any other ammunition you might want to use.

CBDunkerson wrote:
In any case, the text says "This ability". What ability is it referring to? Seems clear to me that it is the Endless Ammunition ability. So let's swap that in, 'Endless Ammunition does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon'.

How about we take the substitution one step further? "Endless Ammunition does not reduce the amount of time required to perform that one action I only have to take to use other ammunition or that other action I can perform at full BAB."

CBDunkerson wrote:
Because Mark Seifter isn't likely to have any clue, right?

Let's put it that way: I'm respecting his wish not to be quoted across the board as official answer.

M1k31 wrote:
this means that RAW, Endless ammunition does not work with double crossbows(or any 2 shot weapon) correctly without further rules clarification that it can create a second bolt by RAI... as this was an "is this an OP rules interaction" thread I would not immediately presume RAI either way as to whether the Double crossbow can use endless ammunition, but Shadow shooting doesn't have a RAW issue... Endless Ammunition clearly does.

Fair point on the technicality of Endless Ammunition only creating one bolt. This also means that you can't use it with Manyshot.

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
One of those is a +2 ability with additional restriction (only bows and crossbows), the other is just +1 (for every projectile weapon). It's obvious that one should be better than the other, and the "will save for partial damage" doesn't cut it since you can just bypass it with static damage boosts.

Just thought I'd mention this part again, since no one seemed to respond to it.

Liberty's Edge

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
And I take that part as flavor text. Why?

Because you need to ignore it to arrive at the conclusion you want?

Grammatically, 'A so B' is identical to 'B because A'. This text is saying that 'the wielder never needs to load ammunition' because 'when the weapon is nocked an arrow or bolt is created by the magic'. Nothing about that text indicates that the process of loading is eliminated or sped up. Only that the ammunition is magically supplied. Which is further confirmed by the text saying that the Endless Ammunition ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. There is no 'normal ammunition' qualifier on that statement. Nothing in the sentence about the ability not changing loading times refers back to the prior sentence or limits the scope of what it is saying. Endless Ammunition does not change loading/firing time period.

Quote:
Because literally every rule about crossbow reloading talks about reloading, not about nocking the crossbow.

This is a rule. About crossbow reloading. Which talks about nocking. The text exists, your need to pretend otherwise to reach your conclusion demonstrates why that conclusion is incorrect.

As to +1 vs +2, you dismiss the 'only one point of damage on successful will save', but others see that as a significant nerf. The difference between 2 x 4 attacks = 8 pts of damage and 2-16 x 4 attacks = 36 average on the particular weapon under discussion here.

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