What level would a sleep spell with no HD limit be?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Assuming it only affects one target? I would say 6 or 7


I'd put it between baleful polymorph and flesh to stone, so 5th or 6th.


Basically, it's a single-target save-or-lose spell. Baleful Polymorph still lets you act, Flesh to Stone doesn't. I feel like it's closer to FtS in terms of effect - albeit not being as permanent, but close enough for combat - so I'd go for 6th myself.


Its much easier for a companion to end a sleep effect than polymorph or petrification. 5 1/2 is really where I'd like to put the level on this. Some specifics as to range and such would settle me for the level.


Sleep's normally a Medium range (matching Flesh to Stone), so I'm assuming this spell would be the same since the OP didn't mention any changes aside from removing the HD cap. Good point on the ease of companions waking people up, though personally, I don't think that's enough of a boon to drop it all the way to 5th Level.


GM Rednal wrote:
Sleep's normally a Medium range (matching Flesh to Stone), so I'm assuming this spell would be the same since the OP didn't mention any changes aside from removing the HD cap. Good point on the ease of companions waking people up, though personally, I don't think that's enough of a boon to drop it all the way to 5th Level.

It's considerably weaker when you put in other factors.With the exception of worrying about equipment flesh to stone is far superior.

Sleep is an enchantment effect, the higher up you go the more creatures have high resistance if not outright immunity to enchantment. Far less creatures resist transmutation. Enchantment should be ahead of the curve in save or lose in the same way evocation should be ahead of conjuration in damage.


Biggest weakness of the sleep spell if you remove the HD cap is that it is a full round cast. That might lower the spell level down to 5 because of it being easier to interupt. For comparison, hold monster is L5, medium range, and casts as a standard action.


5th level, probably. The Slumber Hex already exists, so it's not breaking the game any more than it's already broken. At least sleep effects can be defended against by a prepared opponent by having a low level minion with a readied action to wake you up.


Sleep
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 344
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
Level adept 1, arcanist 1, bard 1, mesmerist 1, occultist 1, psychic 1, sahir-afiyun 1, shaman 1, skald 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Effect
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Description
up to 4HD of creatures on failed save fall into a magical slumber.

Deep Slumber
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 265
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
Level arcanist 3, bard 3, mesmerist 3, occultist 3, psychic 3, sahir-afiyun 3, shaman 3, skald 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Description
up to 10HD of creatures on failed save fall into a magical slumber.

Mythic puts it at 20HD and that's important.

Symbol of Sleep
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 356
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
Level arcanist 5, cleric/oracle 5, mesmerist 5, occultist 4, sahir-afiyun 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, warpriest 5, witch 5
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal worth a total of 1,000 gp)
Range 0 ft.; see text
Effect one symbol
Duration see text
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Description
This spell functions like symbol of death, except that all creatures of 10 HD or less within 60 feet of the symbol of sleep instead fall into a catatonic slumber for 3d6 × 10 minutes. Unlike with the sleep spell, sleeping creatures cannot be awakened by nonmagical means before this time expires.
so this could affect 30HD or so...

following that progression...

Deeper Slumber{azothath}
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting];
Level arcanist 5, bard 5, mesmerist 5, occultist 5, psychic 5, sahir-afiyun 5, shaman 5, skald 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, witch 5
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Description
up to 16, 18, or 23HD{16HD would be the linear number} of creatures on failed save fall into a magical slumber. I'd go with 18 or 20.


Generally, I wouldn't allow a custom spell to exceed what a basic similar spell from the CRB can do for its level.

Hold Person is basically a 2nd or 3rd level version in that it incapacitates a victim who fails a will save, and it allows a save every round (basically the offset for lifting the HD cap on the opponents, when compared to Sleep).

Mass Hold Person is basically a 7th level spell, and it allows a save every round.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person/

What is the other effective difference between sleep and hold person? Add the Toppling Spell metamagic, and it knocks the affected opponents prone...


As this is not the homebrew forum/board, I stuck to basics.
The mythic deep slumber spell ups the HD to 20, so removing the HD cap and staying within core pathfinder seems unlikely.


JoeElf wrote:

Hold Person is basically a 2nd or 3rd level version in that it incapacitates a victim who fails a will save, and it allows a save every round (basically the offset for lifting the HD cap on the opponents, when compared to Sleep).

What is the other effective difference between sleep and hold person? Add the Toppling Spell metamagic, and it knocks the affected opponents prone...

Sleep can affect multiple targets if they're weak enough.

Sleep takes longer to cast.

Sleep can be cured easily by any ally. "My familiar bites me as a Standard action. I wake up and stand up as a move action, then I cast..."


I was referring to the OP post looking for a single target as victim, but yes, sleep normally can affect multiples if very weak, which is why I also linked the mass version of hold person.


JoeElf wrote:

Generally, I wouldn't allow a custom spell to exceed what a basic similar spell from the CRB can do for its level.

Hold Person is basically a 2nd or 3rd level version in that it incapacitates a victim who fails a will save, and it allows a save every round (basically the offset for lifting the HD cap on the opponents, when compared to Sleep).

Mass Hold Person is basically a 7th level spell, and it allows a save every round.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person/

What is the other effective difference between sleep and hold person? Add the Toppling Spell metamagic, and it knocks the affected opponents prone...

http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Toppling%20Spell

Toppling Spell only works on spells with the Force descriptor...

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