Before anyone jumps on me for suggesting a boost to CR 19+ creatures, I shall say that my question is more "hey isn't this inconsistent?" and less "hey isn't this too easy?". Okay? Okay.
So! One thing I like to do when reading Paizo APs is to deconstruct bosses. I like to see how their stats got so high, where all their modifiers are coming from, and basically just double check everything to see if that boss stat block is kosher by the book. Mostly this is to get some practice at making bosses of my own, but it did start with curiosity (I'm sorry, the Runelord's Int score is WHAT??).
One thing I noticed is that in the rare instances where a villain has access to Wish, they use it to boost their ability scores. Of course, by the rules, Wish has to be cast multiple times back-to-back in order to get more than a +1 bonus. That means that if a creature can only cast 4 wishes per day, then they can only boost abilities by +4 at best. This is usually baked into the stat blocks for you, so you don't really need to worry about it.
Onto the actual dilemma. Gold, Sovereign, and Umbral dragons all gain Wish upon reaching the great wyrm stage. BUT, it seems that their stats (at least on the pfsrd) are all regular stats with only age bonuses built in. Since all three of them can cast 4 wishes per day (without material components, the lucky bastards), shouldn't all of their ability scores be 4 higher?
I ask because it would make a significant difference. +60 hp, +2 AC, increased damage output, higher spell DCs, etc. And simply because I am personally always in favor of making dragons just a little bit more terrifying.
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This is a meta-believability issue for a lot of high level creatures. Why hasn’t every demigod boosted its stats by 5? Shouldn’t every Pit Fiend engage in a group pact to slowly do the same?
Onto the actual dilemma. Gold, Sovereign, and Umbral dragons all gain Wish upon reaching the great wyrm stage. BUT, it seems that their stats (at least on the pfsrd) are all regular stats with only age bonuses built in. Since all three of them can cast 4 wishes per day (without material components, the lucky bastards), shouldn't all of their ability scores be 4 higher?
Where are you getting that? None of those dragons automatically gain a wish ability. Their innate casting ability does get to the point they can potentially choose the spell (as one of the only 2 9th level spells they can know), but it isn't automatic. And that also applies to other dragon types than those as well.
And dragons still need the component for the wish spell, same as anyone else. It is spell-like abilities that are done without components, not normal spellcasting.
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The rules for dragons and Great Wyrms especially are more or less guidelines imo. You need to modify them according to your campaign giving them appropriate spells/items, so why not giving them a bonus to stats? A Great Wyrm is as iconic an opponent as the party can get in D&D and Pathfinder. Just remember to scale the DC of the encounter after modifying the dragon (and add a few suitably powerful minions in order to give the party a run for their money).
Onto the actual dilemma. Gold, Sovereign, and Umbral dragons all gain Wish upon reaching the great wyrm stage. BUT, it seems that their stats (at least on the pfsrd) are all regular stats with only age bonuses built in. Since all three of them can cast 4 wishes per day (without material components, the lucky bastards), shouldn't all of their ability scores be 4 higher?Where are you getting that? None of those dragons automatically gain a wish ability. Their innate casting ability does get to the point they can potentially choose the spell (as one of the only 2 9th level spells they can know), but it isn't automatic. And that also applies to other dragon types than those as well.
And dragons still need the component for the wish spell, same as anyone else. It is spell-like abilities that are done without components, not normal spellcasting.
I didn't realize that! I just assumed that they eschew all materials, which I now realize was a dumb assumption to make. Huh, I suppose that would factor in quite a bit haha! Although it's not terribly unreasonable to say a dragon managed to boost one or two abilities in it's long long life while still having a proper horde when encountered. After all, there's nothing that says to subtract 25,000g from the treasure each time Wish is cast in the fight.
As for the source of Wish, I'm just going by the spells known to each dragon type at Great Wyrm age. I suppose different dragons could learn different spells, although it would be tougher seeing as they usually classify as sorcerers. That, and all dragons seem to be outfitted with spells that fit their personalities and habitats.
That's a reasonable interpretation, but I doubt the authors put that much thought into a generic creature of its type.
As a GM, I'd certainly consider making use of that option.
However, keep in mind that to do this with all of the dragon's stats, it would involve using 600,000 GP of the dragon's horde (unless you also gave the dragon Blood Money). There are a lot of dragon types out there that would rather have the horde than the stats.
That's very true. It could reasonably be said that the more greedy dragons simply don't want to sacrifice any of their hard-earned horde to boost their own abilities.
On the other hand, a GW Gold dragon is CR 23. A +4 to every ability would arguably bring it up to 24, which is 1 rank above 'Epic' difficulty for a party of level 20s. Which, in my opinion at least, seems appropriate for a fight with the Dragon To End All Dragons.
Can you point to a bestiary example of a creature boosting it's stats with wish? and how would you know?
I see it regularly in actual bosses in APs and modules, but I don't recall seeing it in a bestiary creature. To be fair I haven't read them as thoroughly as you so...
After all, there's nothing that says to subtract 25,000g from the treasure each time Wish is cast in the fight.
Actually, there is. They have to have the proper component to cast the spell, and to have the proper component it has to be part of their treasure.
It isn't any different then if they used a scroll that was part of their treasure.
Now, the problem with this is that treasure isn't necessarily there to boost the monsters (although it certainly can) it is primarily there to reward the players. A magic sword will still be treasure if it is used in the fight, a magic scroll won't be. Since WBL should increase proportional to XP, which is directly related to CR, adjusting the one without adjusting the other will create an imbalance that will need to be fixed somehow. This would be doubly true if you take away wealth to increase CR (as with spending their treasure to get inherent bonuses.)
Can you point to a bestiary example of a creature boosting it's stats with wish? and how would you know?
I see it regularly in actual bosses in APs and modules, but I don't recall seeing it in a bestiary creature. To be fair I haven't read them as thoroughly as you so...
Most creatures you wouldn't be able to know unless it was specifically stated. Dragons, however, are different. They have a base set of stats for wyrmlings that get added to at every age category. So you can see if they have anything extra added in or not. For example, all Very Young dragons add +4 to whatever Strength score they have as Wyrmlings. At Young, you add+8 to whatever wyrmling Strength score they have, all the way up to Great Wyrm where you add +26 to the wyrmling base Strength.
So since the base Strength score of a gold wyrmling is 17, and Great Wyrm adds 26 to that, a gold dragon great wyrm would have a Strength of 42. If a specific stated one doesn't, then there have been some other modifiers applied.
As for creatures listed as boosting their stats, I don't think there is one in a Bestiary. There likely are in an individual module, however. Bestiary entries are supposed to be a completely average generic version of the monster, so unless every single instance of that monster has boosted their stats to the same degree, it wouldn't appear in the entry.
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To me, it depends a lot on the campaign purpose of the dragon in question. If this is the big campaign-ending boss battle, yeah, wish up those stats. Also deck the dragon out in stat-boosting items, bracers, cloak, the Big 6 in dragon form.
However, if this is Great Wyrm #16 in a world-threatening "Plague of Dragons" scenario for upper tier Mythic PCs - meh, just use the default stats. Level 19-20, MR9-10 characters will drop a GW dragon in 1-2 actions, so it's not really worth investing a whole bunch of effort in their stats.
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Similar to Ryric stated, the stat blocks of creatures only represent their base value during any particular day. This does not include any pre-combat tactics they may use prior to the encounter. If the creature uses any pre-combat tactics, they are usually described and also reflected in a modified stat block in the module.
If a dragon has wish as an ability, and whether the dragon is willing to give up the gold (as Saldiven mentioned previous), it completely up to the GM (you) whether that dragon, or any other creature for that matter, to use it's abilities to buff itself. Personally, I would allow for such buffing, especially if the dragon was forewarned of a possible dangerous encounter.
And remember that wish can buff a stat to maximum of +5, to each stat, so you can go crazy with this if the dragon has multiple days to apply the spell. Then again, as the GM, you can call lightning bolts from the sky... just saying... ;)
After all, there's nothing that says to subtract 25,000g from the treasure each time Wish is cast in the fight.
Actually, there is. They have to have the proper component to cast the spell, and to have the proper component it has to be part of their treasure.
It isn't any different then if they used a scroll that was part of their treasure.
Now, the problem with this is that treasure isn't necessarily there to boost the monsters (although it certainly can) it is primarily there to reward the players. A magic sword will still be treasure if it is used in the fight, a magic scroll won't be. Since WBL should increase proportional to XP, which is directly related to CR, adjusting the one without adjusting the other will create an imbalance that will need to be fixed somehow. This would be doubly true if you take away wealth to increase CR (as with spending their treasure to get inherent bonuses.)
Fair enough. Although if you plan on using the creature as a final boss, then it's probably not your biggest concern to adjust the treasure horde. Simply because the players won't actually be making much use of it.
Honestly, I think some of this just derives from how old Dragon stats are. Most of the base rules were simply carried over from 3.5, and many of the newer dragons just used the same system (it does work well after all). But it could be updated with some details. The bosses in adventure paths I've encountered did have diamonds for Wish as part of their gear/treasure, but it was also kind enough to specify what they were for. Instead of just carrying around some diamonds, the stat bloc specifically stated "4 x Diamond worth 25,000g (for casting Wish)". So potentially an update to dragon entries could do something similar to ensure GMs like myself don't mistakenly give them free Wishes.
Onto the actual dilemma. Gold, Sovereign, and Umbral dragons all gain Wish upon reaching the great wyrm stage. BUT, it seems that their stats (at least on the pfsrd) are all regular stats with only age bonuses built in. Since all three of them can cast 4 wishes per day (without material components, the lucky bastards), shouldn't all of their ability scores be 4 higher?Where are you getting that? None of those dragons automatically gain a wish ability. Their innate casting ability does get to the point they can potentially choose the spell (as one of the only 2 9th level spells they can know), but it isn't automatic. And that also applies to other dragon types than those as well.
And dragons still need the component for the wish spell, same as anyone else. It is spell-like abilities that are done without components, not normal spellcasting.
All of this, and more.
Any time I put something like this in a campaign, it is a unique individual.
I personalize it.
The spell selections and equipment will be unique to the individual. If the creature has Permanency, for example, it may have used that spell to grant itself permanent spells and/or defenses. It may have contingencies, it may have some of it's treasure hoard equipped, it will almost certainly have long duration buffs already in place.
Any intelligent, powerful and long-lived entity will make use of available resources to augment it's power and ensure it remains long-lived.