Adding Cha to Ac twice.


Rules Questions


I know that you can't add the same attribute to an ability twice but I have a nuance question.

Take a ghost that can add Cha to deflection bonus.

If he takes Osyluth Guile, which lets you add Cha to dodge.

So since I'm not directly adding Cha to the same stat do they both count?

I am adding it as deflection and to dodge.

Both of those are then added to CMD and AC.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/osyluth-guile-combat/

feat ^^


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You can add the same ability to something as many times as long as they are different types. So a ghost that gets CHA as deflection that was a scaled fist monk that gets CHA to AC with that feat could get CHA to AC 3 times, and I think there's a new monk archetype that gives CHA as a dodge bonus while giving CHA to AC so with that they'd be able to get 4xCHA to AC.


Sure, Mystic Wanderer at first level let’s you get CHA as a sacred bonus to AC provided you meet the prequisites. 3.5’s Battle Dancer also grants CHA as a dodge bonus to AC at first level.

A Nymph, Battledancer, Mystic Wanderer for example would add CHA to AC three times, Sacred, Dodge and Deflection.


Since dodge stacks, dodge and dodge would work though wouldn't it


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Here's the faq.

FAQ wrote:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

Which all simply backs up what everyone else has said.


Cavall wrote:
Since dodge stacks, dodge and dodge would work though wouldn't it

Not from the same source.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Since dodge stacks, dodge and dodge would work though wouldn't it
Not from the same source.

And with the new FAQ, charisma is one of the sources. So charisma as a dodge bonus should stack with another charisma dodge bonus.

Silver Crusade

I had this discussion before, concerning a scaled fist monk (cha to ac) who would have a level of oracle to get one of those powers that replace your dex to ac with your cha bonus.

Normal is: dex + cha
Since dex becomes cha.
Now is: cha + cha.

And indeed, if you would get an ability that said you would get an armor bonus to ac equalling your cha bonus, once more!

The faq quote Lost in Limbo dug up means that you can't, for example deal dex to damage via fencer's grace, and then once more via the agile weapon ability


Viondar wrote:

I had this discussion before, concerning a scaled fist monk (cha to ac) who would have a level of oracle to get one of those powers that replace your dex to ac with your cha bonus.

Normal is: dex + cha
Since dex becomes cha.
Now is: cha + cha.

Which is reduced to just CHA since you can't add CHA twice to something directly. It makes for a very bad dip.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Since dodge stacks, dodge and dodge would work though wouldn't it
Not from the same source.

Yeah, but our Nymph(deflection) Battledancer(dodge)/Mystic Wanderer(sacred) could take osyluth-guile for another dodge bonus of charisma to AC. I think.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Yes
But no one I know uses 3.5 material since like 2011.


James Risner wrote:

Yes

But no one I know uses 3.5 material since like 2011.

Yeah, of course. We're just talking theory, here.


The only restriction, as I understand it is:
1) Except for dodge, bonuses of the same type do not stack.
2) "Untyped bonus equal to an attribute modifier" is a type for purposes of #1.

With the right options in print you could add your Charisma to your AC as an armor, deflection, insight, luck, natural armor, sacred/profane, shield, and as many dodge bonuses as you can get.

I think the current high is 4xChaMod to AC as a Ghostly Water Dancer Monk fighting defensively using Osyluth's Guile.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Heavy debate on if you can gain a sacred and profane bonus simultaneously as well as a FAQ that suggests two dodge bonuses from the same source should not stack but may until rewritten to clearly state they don’t.


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James Risner wrote:
Heavy debate on if you can gain a sacred and profane bonus simultaneously [...]

I read that as "Heavenly debate...". I thought it was a good pun.

Anyway, I still think they should either be allowed to stack, or both be renamed into "divine" bonus.


Dodge should always stack. Core book and nothing I've seen over rides that.


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I feel like dodge bonuses should always stack, since the text in the core book is pretty clear and even if you're adding twelve million to your AC as a dodge bonus, AC from dodge bonuses has a way to negate it built in (anything that denies you your dex bonus also denies you your dodge bonuses).

I'm inclined to think Sacred & Profane shouldn't stack, because these don't have a built-in way to negate them.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

The only restriction, as I understand it is:

1) Except for dodge, bonuses of the same type do not stack.
2) "Untyped bonus equal to an attribute modifier" is a type for purposes of #1.

Not exactly true. To my knowledge, this is correct:

1) Dodge, circumstance, and racial bonuses stack, other typed bonuses don't stack. Source: CRB pg. 208, second row, first complete sentence
2) Untyped bonuses from different sources stack, untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack. Source: CRB pg. 208, second row, third complete sentence
3) Attribute modifiers count as a source for #2. Source

I don't think there's anything granting an ability modifier as a circumstance or racial bonus at the moment, though.

RAW, sacred and profane are different bonus types and thus stack. Pathfinder is already using the term in a weird way ("good"/"evil" instead of "for a deity"/"against a deity"), so who can say? Is there any official material regarding the nature of profance and sacred bonuses?


Derklord wrote:


RAW, sacred and profane are different bonus types and thus stack. Pathfinder is already using the term in a weird way ("good"/"evil" instead of "for a deity"/"against a deity"), so who can say? Is there any official material regarding the nature of profance and sacred bonuses?

Nope. By the written rules nothing stops them from stacking. As a comparison people sometimes have complained about being able to put the frost and flaming enhancement on a weapons, and some GM's don't allow that. In either case I don't see a problem with it. You are getting bonuses from two different sources.


wraithstrike wrote:
In either case I don't see a problem with it. You are getting bonuses from two different sources.

On the other hand, this opens up the question why one good and one evil source can work together with each other, while two good or two evil sources can't.

And why good and evil get their own bonus types, while axiomatic, chaotic, and neutral don't.


Asmodeus' Unholy Barrister wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
In either case I don't see a problem with it. You are getting bonuses from two different sources.

On the other hand, this opens up the question why one good and one evil source can work together with each other, while two good or two evil sources can't.

And why good and evil get their own bonus types, while axiomatic, chaotic, and neutral don't.

Because the game is balanced around good and evil which are just fluff/flavor for the bonus. It is balanced around bonus types.

Most alignments are judged more on how good or evil something is because that is what people care about. In theory all 4 axis are equal, but the fact that doing evil things is what is likely to cause a cleric or paladin to lose their powers shows that the good/evil axis is what really matters. Since the creators of the game know that is the focus they got the bonuses. It doesn't mean new bonuses cant be introduced later. Fantasy based media talks about the struggle between good and evil, not between law and chaos. That just shows where the focus is.


James Risner wrote:
Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Since dodge stacks, dodge and dodge would work though wouldn't it
Not from the same source.
And with the new FAQ, charisma is one of the sources. So charisma as a dodge bonus should stack with another charisma dodge bonus.

The most recent FAQ under General Rules regarding bonus stacking is dated October, 2014.

It does not address dodge bonuses.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The FAQ on Offensive Defense covers gaining two dodge bonuses from the same source as “shouldn’t work but we are watching” type language. If you put the Charisma is a source FAQ with that one, it suggests two charisma as dodge bonuses are not intended to stack. They may by strick rules stack now, but they are not intended.


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I feel like the Offensive Defense FAQ is saying that "Offensive Defense" is a source and so it doesn't stack with itself. Which is to say that two effects with the same name giving the same bonus do not stack (unless they say so explicitly).

However- Nereid's Grace, Osyluth's Guile, and the Monk's "AC Bonus (EX)" class feature are three different sources, and so *should* stack, even if they're all based on charisma. One gives a different kind of bonus than the other two (untyped) and the other two give different dodge bonuses, which stack.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

PossibleCabbage wrote:
However- Nereid's Grace, Osyluth's Guile, and the Monk's "AC Bonus (EX)" class feature are three different sources, and so *should* stack, even if they're all based on charisma. One gives a different kind of bonus than the other two (untyped) and the other two give different dodge bonuses, which stack.

Nerid's Grace is deflection bonus.

Monk AC Bonus is untyped.
Osyluth Guile is dodge.

Devoted Muse Artful Defense is dodge.

I'm addressing just the two dodge bonuses point (Guile + Muse). Specifically using the Offensive Defense caution that using dodge twice from the same source could be a problem and isn't intended.

I'm combining the original double stat to something FAQ addressing that the ability is also the source.

Putting those two pieces together we know:

  • Muse + Guile works as they are both dodge bonuses.
  • It is likely intended that two dodge bonuses source from Charisma shouldn't stack.


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Nereid's Grace is dodge:

Quote:
When unarmored and unencumbered, a water dancer adds 1 point of Charisma bonus per monk level to his Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus.

The first clause (above) is basically the Devoted Muse's Artful Defense. A trickier question would be whether a water dancer who goes into devoted muse stack the two, which I'm inclined to think they can since dodge bonuses stack and "Nereid's Grace" and "Artful Defense" are two different sources (by virtue of having different names), even though they do the same thing.


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He probably thought of this Nereid's Grace.


James Risner wrote:
They may by strick rules stack now, but they are not intended.

Seeing how the current design team often goes with RAW over intend, and they didn't stop the stacking in over five and a half years, the intent of a design team years ago is utterly irrelevant.

The Swarm Scatter feat actually requires self-stacking.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
"Nereid's Grace" and "Artful Defense" are two different sources (by virtue of having different names), even though they do the same thing.

Highly debatable (Divine Gracy and whatever oracle ability have different names as well, yet count as one source), but also completely irrelevant! Even though 99% of all players and even some devs* seem to get it wrong, the "same source" rule only exists for untyped bonuses. The word "source" appears but once in the relevant rules, in the sentence "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."

*) Yes, the dev(s) who wrote that FAQ got it wrong, too - what the FAQ says is in conflict with the actual rules. Maybe that's why there never was a followup FAQ actually changing anything.


I'm gunna be honest it was more about canny defense for me. Obviously It stacks with itself as it's a point per level with a cap.

I just want to know of i get it from 2 sources and ones "per class level" and the other is as Well, would they stack as a dodge bonus, as dodge bonuses stack.


Derklord wrote:
*) Yes, the dev(s) who wrote that FAQ got it wrong, too - what the FAQ says is in conflict with the actual rules. Maybe that's why there never was a followup FAQ actually changing anything.

Dev's haven't been shy inventing new rules and/or using unwritten rules, so it MAY be within the rules, just not ones we're allowed it see or know about. After all, they invented a new kind of wield [defending: currently attacking with] and a new kind of hand [effort: unwritten and NO where in the books]. ;)

Then remember that they have said that FAQ's are meant to be narrowly used and NOT to be expanded to apply to anything outside the scope of the FAQ. This was mentioned about this exact FAQ from Mark to me, that nested sources weren't meant to apply to anything other than stat bonuses...

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