How much do I have to lug around Paizo Con?


Pathfinder Society

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2/5

Was considering attending this year but was curious how much additional resources are required to be on hand. I was hoping that since the harcovers are free on the prd, they would not be needed as flying across the country with 50lbs of books would probably decide it for me in the negative.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

You are suppose to have a legal copy, either hardcover or watermarked PDF.

It is outlined in the Guide.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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The hardcovers also have relatively cheap (in $/page terms) PDFs. Aside from sheer convenience, it might be cheaper to buy PDFs instead of pay baggage fees.

Using the PRD is allowed under some conditions since the current season, as described in the S9 Guide:

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide S9, p. 5 wrote:


In order to use content from sources outside the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, a player must bring an accessible copy of the resource that indicates that she owns the resource. An accessible copy means one of the following: a physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the relevant pages, or either a photocopy of the relevant pages or electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document at paizo.com/prd along with proof of purchase. Proof of purchase may include a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page at paizo.com.

So if you still have store receipts for your physical books, that counts. (I don't - never knew this rule was coming.)

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

The hardcovers also have relatively cheap (in $/page terms) PDFs. Aside from sheer convenience, it might be cheaper to buy PDFs instead of pay baggage fees.

Using the PRD is allowed under some conditions since the current season, as described in the S9 Guide:

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide S9, p. 5 wrote:


In order to use content from sources outside the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, a player must bring an accessible copy of the resource that indicates that she owns the resource. An accessible copy means one of the following: a physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the relevant pages, or either a photocopy of the relevant pages or electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document at paizo.com/prd along with proof of purchase. Proof of purchase may include a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page at paizo.com.
So if you still have store receipts for your physical books, that counts. (I don't - never knew this rule was coming.)

I believe this change was added in the Season 8 Guide.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Tallow wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

The hardcovers also have relatively cheap (in $/page terms) PDFs. Aside from sheer convenience, it might be cheaper to buy PDFs instead of pay baggage fees.

Using the PRD is allowed under some conditions since the current season, as described in the S9 Guide:

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide S9, p. 5 wrote:


In order to use content from sources outside the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, a player must bring an accessible copy of the resource that indicates that she owns the resource. An accessible copy means one of the following: a physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the relevant pages, or either a photocopy of the relevant pages or electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document at paizo.com/prd along with proof of purchase. Proof of purchase may include a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page at paizo.com.
So if you still have store receipts for your physical books, that counts. (I don't - never knew this rule was coming.)
I believe this change was added in the Season 8 Guide.

Just checked, I don't see mention of it in the S8 guide. And I think it was listed as one of the new changes for S9. But it's not something that got a lot of attention.

It should be noted that the examples of proof of purchase are not exhaustive. If a store receipt counts, then your (physical product) order history from Paizo.com, Amazon or bookdepository.com could also be reasonably used as proof of purchase. And the chance of still having those are bigger than a small slip of paper form a FLGS.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

The hardcovers also have relatively cheap (in $/page terms) PDFs. Aside from sheer convenience, it might be cheaper to buy PDFs instead of pay baggage fees.

Using the PRD is allowed under some conditions since the current season, as described in the S9 Guide:

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide S9, p. 5 wrote:


In order to use content from sources outside the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, a player must bring an accessible copy of the resource that indicates that she owns the resource. An accessible copy means one of the following: a physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the relevant pages, or either a photocopy of the relevant pages or electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document at paizo.com/prd along with proof of purchase. Proof of purchase may include a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page at paizo.com.
So if you still have store receipts for your physical books, that counts. (I don't - never knew this rule was coming.)
I believe this change was added in the Season 8 Guide.

Just checked, I don't see mention of it in the S8 guide. And I think it was listed as one of the new changes for S9. But it's not something that got a lot of attention.

It should be noted that the examples of proof of purchase are not exhaustive. If a store receipt counts, then your (physical product) order history from Paizo.com, Amazon or bookdepository.com could also be reasonably used as proof of purchase. And the chance of still having those are bigger than a small slip of paper form a FLGS.

Very true. For those who've owned several books, purchased at the FLGS, for years, chances of having that receipt are pretty slim.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

You might do what is often done in PBP (a photo of you, surrounded by your hardcopy resources.). You will still want to bring the relevant rules though for your character so that the GM can look at it.

PDFs may still be easier for the traveler.

Hmm

*

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You might do what is often done in PBP (a photo of you, surrounded by your hardcopy resources.). You will still want to bring the relevant rules though for your character so that the GM can look at it.

PDFs may still be easier for the traveler.

Hmm

My emphasis. Internet access at a convention is consistently inconsistent.

I have two suggestions to help lessen the paperload. Choose which books you *must* have to run a character. If your only reason for bringing Ultimate Combat is so your wizard can use ablative barrier you might want to prep a different spell. If your 2nd level alchemist archetype doesn't have a change from the base alchemist abilities until 4th level, it doesn't vary from the APG. A +2 corrosive longsword without the APG is still a +2 longsword.

Secondly, when you register for games you can choose which characters to bring. If you sign up for Core PFS games for example, you will have less to carry. A 5th, 6th, or 7th level character will have more opportunities to fit into multiple scenarios, than bringing 3 first, 5 sixth, and 2 tenth level characters (and their corresponding sources.)

If you are only using a single feat from a book, you might get away with a one page photocopy (again I suggest you have some way of proving it is your book that has been copied). I didn't list this as one of the two suggestions as acceptance will vary from table to table.

Also, while not for everybody: leave the PFS room! PaizoCon has so many cool things going on, folks should get out and try them.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You might do what is often done in PBP (a photo of you, surrounded by your hardcopy resources.). You will still want to bring the relevant rules though for your character so that the GM can look at it.

PDFs may still be easier for the traveler.

Hmm

Is that how it's done in PBP?

It seems subtly different from tabletop. Sure, in PBP proving physical ownership is tricky and you have to accept something like that - but the picture could have been staged with books on loan. So that's a bit different with the policy of tabletop not allowing photocopies from a book (which could also have been loaned).

*

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You might do what is often done in PBP (a photo of you, surrounded by your hardcopy resources.). You will still want to bring the relevant rules though for your character so that the GM can look at it.

PDFs may still be easier for the traveler.

Hmm

Is that how it's done in PBP?

It seems subtly different from tabletop. Sure, in PBP proving physical ownership is tricky and you have to accept something like that - but the picture could have been staged with books on loan. So that's a bit different with the policy of tabletop not allowing photocopies from a book (which could also have been loaned).

What's to say that a copy at your table is owned by the player at your table? A cheater's going to cheat. However, if you can, get your photo signed by your local-five-star-VC.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

You might do what is often done in PBP (a photo of you, surrounded by your hardcopy resources.). You will still want to bring the relevant rules though for your character so that the GM can look at it.

Hmm

This does not work in real life and should not work in pbp.

Silver Crusade 3/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP

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Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

In general, we take ownership on trust in PBP. I think the same is true at conventions.

But we still want to have a way that GMs can spot check assets. For pdfs, one can show a screenshot of downloads. But if a GM wants to do a spot asset check, how do you propose we prove ownership of hardcovers?

Hmm

4/5 5/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

In general, we take ownership on trust in PBP. I think the same is true at conventions.

But we still want to have a way that GMs can spot check assets. For pdfs, one can show a screenshot of downloads. But if a GM wants to do a spot asset check, how do you propose we prove ownership of hardcovers?

This may be an unpopular opinion, but as long as PbP is part of the same campaign as any face-to-face game, I believe such games should follow the same rules. If “trust” is an acceptable method for proving ownership, why isn’t that good enough for a face-to-face game? If one is gong to argue “convenience” and say that the rules need to be loosened for PbP, why can’t those same rules be loosened for conventions? If one type of games needs different rules, perhaps it’s best those games become a separate campaign.

Regardless (returning to the OP’s query), remember proof of ownership isn’t enough; one must also be able to show that the AR document allows a rule and show the GM the text of said rule.

Dataphiles 3/5

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I highly recommend you keep an eye out for Paizo's next Humble Bundle. I have always bought physical copies of books, but it has become unrealistic to take all the books I use as sources for my characters to conventions. The Humble Bundle deals let you pick up a lot of great PDFs at a reduced cost, and support a good cause while you're at it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Your chances of getting audited for sources are inversely proportional to the amount of paizo stuff sticking out of your geek bag.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

In general, we take ownership on trust in PBP. I think the same is true at conventions.

But we still want to have a way that GMs can spot check assets. For pdfs, one can show a screenshot of downloads. But if a GM wants to do a spot asset check, how do you propose we prove ownership of hardcovers?

This may be an unpopular opinion, but as long as PbP is part of the same campaign as any face-to-face game, I believe such games should follow the same rules. If “trust” is an acceptable method for proving ownership, why isn’t that good enough for a face-to-face game? If one is gong to argue “convenience” and say that the rules need to be loosened for PbP, why can’t those same rules be loosened for conventions? If one type of games needs different rules, perhaps it’s best those games become a separate campaign.

Regardless (returning to the OP’s query), remember proof of ownership isn’t enough; one must also be able to show that the AR document allows a rule and show the GM the text of said rule.

Earl is correct. There is a local who stopped playing when photocopies from your books was given the ban hammer. Even though he had a photo of himself and all of his hardcover books, he was told he would need to lug around all of his books.

So, if the peeps who go to game days need to lug around books, then pbp should be held to the same standard. Imagine the surprise of Player X when he or she sits down at a table at PaizoCon with a PC that uses Burning Disarm. Cool! The GM asks to see Cheliax Land of Devils. Player X then whips out a photo of him-/herself with said Player Companion.

"Sorry, that is not acceptable."
"But it works for pbp!"

A double standard is created if pbp is allowed to take ownership "on faith".

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Redelia wrote:
Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

You can't. There is no method that will work for all parties involved.

And thus, a double standard is created.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Remember that a good part of the reason players need to lug around their books is so that the GM, who might now own the book, can read the particular rule with their own eyes.

Because, they may want to see what the original text says, not what the player interprets it to read, what d20pfsrd has "cleaned it up" to read, what Hero Lab says it reads, or even what archivesofnethys says it reads. Because all of those have been wrong at times.

While I agree this places a burden on players, it is the choice of the player to create characters that use 17 different source books (or more)!

As for online play, I will agree, 100%, that has its own challenges on burden of proof.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Jack Brown wrote:


While I agree this places a burden on players, it is the choice of the player to create characters that use 17 different source books (or more)!

Right. So maybe they shouldn't make those characters. So they shouldn't buy all those books...

Oh. Wait. getting people to buy the books is kinda the a point of pfs.

Some people don't get to play outside of conventions, either because there is no pfs in their area, or they ARE the pfs for their area.

You are not running a nuclear reactor here. Nethys or PFSRD is close enough to check during a game (and if either source is imperfect, so are print books that haven't been updated, PDFs that haven't been updated, and the prd which hasn't been updated), and any source that has clarification somewhere that pfsrd will point out for you.

So if someone can provide reasonable evidence of ownership (like a hostage photo) in line with the INTENT of the rule, and get you a its 99%+ likely to be right copy of the wording, that really should be good enough.

Scarab Sages 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jack Brown wrote:


While I agree this places a burden on players, it is the choice of the player to create characters that use 17 different source books (or more)!

Right. So maybe they shouldn't make those characters. So they shouldn't buy all those books...

Oh. Wait. getting people to buy the books is kinda the a point of pfs.

Some people don't get to play outside of conventions, either because there is no pfs in their area, or they ARE the pfs for their area.

You are not running a nuclear reactor here. Nethys or PFSRD is close enough to check during a game (and if either source is imperfect, so are print books that haven't been updated, PDFs that haven't been updated, and the prd which hasn't been updated), and any source that has clarification somewhere that pfsrd will point out for you.

So if someone can provide reasonable evidence of ownership (like a hostage photo) in line with the INTENT of the rule, and get you a its 99%+ likely to be right copy of the wording, that really should be good enough.

I agree with this.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Redelia wrote:
Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

You can't. There is no method that will work for all parties involved.

And thus, a double standard is created.

Considering Online has just been made its own region with an RVC and VC's, Paizo Organized Play has basically gone all-in with on-line play.

Because there are zero ways to legally (both real life legal or campaign legally) provide proof that you own any book or share said language from the book with the GM, then you can't even play core online. You can't take a screenshot of the PDF and share it, because that's copyright infringement or piracy or whatever you want to call it. You can't use the PRD because that's not a legal source.

So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)

1/5 5/5

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So if I physically possess all the books that I have bought and I take a picture of them to prove my physical ownership that doesn't count because... I don't have a receipt?

...what kind of Bizarro-Verse have I ended up in? Do I cease to exist (using said material) because my player pulled something at work and is limited to how much weight they can carry, for example?

Truth - in - text: I DO carry my splats with me because they're light and have oddball things in them. But hardcovers? Really? When flying? The only reason I was able to attend PaizoCon in 2016 was because of the Humble Bundle making it cheap enough to get most of the books I needed on .pdf and purchase a Fire to put them on.

...how can we fix this?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Alright, so I have inadvertently opened a can of worms. I would like to apologize to Pogie and anyone else that I might have misled for suggesting the photo idea for conventions, as it would be inappropriate give the actual wording of the FAQ, now that I have re-read it. As a librarian, it is galling for me to give out any sort of misinformation, however helpfully it was meant.

Pogie, I think your safest bet is to stock up on PDFs hopefully in the next Humble Bundle Deal that Paizo offers. PDFs have multiple advantages. All your PDFs together will weigh approximately the cost of your tablet. Yes, they will require you stocking an electronic device, but they are convenient. They also provide incontrovertible evidence of ownership in the form of your downloads page. With the exception of Flip Mats, Pins and Reroll items, everything that I purchased from Paizo was digital. I like to travel light.

That said... Books never run out of batteries, or become unavailable if your tablet gets dropped and breaks. The purchase of books can also support your FLGS! We all want our friendly local gaming stores to thrive!

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

Okay, so let’s look at the Relevant FAQ with regards to my personal region, Play-by-Post.

FAQ “What do I need to bring to a game to use material that is not from the Core Rulebook for my character?” wrote:

In order to use material that does not appear in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook for your character, you must bring one of the following: A physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked PDF copy of the book, name-watermarked printouts of all relevant pages of the PDF, or access to the rules in the form of either electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document or a photocopy of the relevant pages, along with proof of purchase, such as a receipt from a game store or a screenshot of your My Downloads page.

A photocopy of a physical book does not satisfy this requirement, nor does Hero Lab or any other form of electronic character builder. Content reproduced in other sources under the Open Gaming License (such as an online reference document or a homemade omnibus) also do not qualify.

In addition to a copy of the rules themselves, you must provide an electronic or physical copy of the relevant sections of the Additional Resources page that indicate that the options you have selected for your character are legal for play.

If family members, significant others, or other members of the same household living together (such as roommates) are playing at the same table, they may share the same resources instead of having duplicates of the same resource at the same table. A group of friends that always plays together at the same table fulfills the requirement, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table. However, if they are playing at different tables, each of them must each supply the necessary materials to their table.

So, the big question here is what does it mean to bring a physical copy of the book to a game when the game is in Play-by-Post land? If it is next to you while you are typing, have you not brought the physical copy to the game? I realize that photos are not an ideal way of checking what someone owns... Still, I am hard-pressed to figure out what would constitute an acceptable proof of ownership here.

In Virtual Table Top, a player could hold the book up to the webcam while they are gaming. Then the GM can see that they actually have the book, and proof of ownership is established.

In Play-by-Post, how do we do this? I do encourage GMs to do source checks when they see something wonky. If a player is bringing a “Dervish of the Dawn” I am pretty certain that they are getting their information off of D20PFSRD rather than Inner Sea Magic. I’d like the player to be able to do a proof of resource. With Paizo PDFs, they can print off the relevant water marked pages to a small PDF and link to it. Instant proof. They can also offer a screenshot of their downloads page. But what works with physical copies? Would it work for them to hold up the book in a photo, pointing to the relevant page that the archetype is found upon? Would it be better if the photo is date-marked to the date of the request?

I don’t want to tell folks that their hardcovers do them no good in my region, and that the only viable resources are electronic, and yet I want my region to adhere to the same standards as elsewhere. It’s a conundrum.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

Then there is the trust issue. I believe firmly that trust is the norm for most PFS games, though I have seen some spot audits. I have never been audited or spot-checked at a convention. Often, there is no time, and it is a different atmosphere. While I believe that one should be ready for a spot check (and my downloads page will attest that I own ALL the resources I use) at Conventions, I’ll also note that hauling a suitcase of books on planes is painful.

Given that we now allow scans of chronicle sheets — something to consider as you decide what to bring with you, Pogie! — is there any way that the Leadership Team would consider slightly relaxed standards of proof at conventions for those fans who love physical books?

Here’s hoping the next humble bundle comes along soon!

Hmm

4/5 5/5

Tallow wrote:
So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)

It’s obvious that online play needs to make allowances or adopt a different rule in regards to bringing one’s resources to the table. Because of that, I’d be inclined to advocate spinning online play off into a separate campaign. An added benefit of such a move? An additional way to play a scenario for credit without needing to burn a replay.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Schrödinger's Alt wrote:
...how can we fix this?

Players should relax. You're more likely to lose all of your luggage on the way there than to get an audit (which is a good thing, given the chances of your luggage vanishing), Pack what you can. Go. Have fun.

DMs should relax. checking sources exists for a purpose, to keep people from using sources they don't have down to a dull roar. its not supposed to be a 100% coverage.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
Tallow wrote:
So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)
It’s obvious that online play needs to make allowances or adopt a different rule in regards to bringing one’s resources to the table. Because of that, I’d be inclined to advocate spinning online play off into a separate campaign. An added benefit of such a move? An additional way to play a scenario for credit without needing to burn a replay.

Eh, Core isn't really all that popular as its own spun-off campaign. And what this does is mean I can't play any character I play on-line, in an off-line mode, or vice-versa. That's a whole can of confusing worms I really think organized play is better off without.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
I’d be inclined to advocate spinning online play off into a separate campaign.

A little late, considering it's been around for years and multitudes of characters have been involved in both PbP and RL games.

Plus then there's virtual table top, which blends the two.

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
And thus, a double standard is created.

I'm curious what you mean.

Currently, I can grab any of my roommate's books off of his shelf, take them to a RL game, and claim ownership. How is that different from taking a photo of someone else's books and using it as evidence for PbP?

Both are equally disingenuous. I don't see a double standard.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
GM Eazy-Earl wrote:
I’d be inclined to advocate spinning online play off into a separate campaign.

A little late, considering it's been around for years and multitudes of characters have been involved in both PbP and RL games.

Plus then there's virtual table top, which blends the two.

RE: Leg o' Lamb's "double standard", I'm curious what you mean.

Currently, I can grab any of my roommate's books off of his shelf, take them to a RL game, and claim ownership. How is that different from taking a photo of someone else's books and using it as evidence for PbP?

Both are equally disingenuous. I don't see a double standard.

Because a photo of your physical books doesn't work at a face-to-face game without a receipt.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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But a book at a face-to-face game without a receipt does...

That's my point.

A book at a face-to-face game, or a picture of a book at a PbP game, are the same thing.

How can you have a problem with one, and not the other?

And so if you can't have a problem with either, then you can't have a problem with a photo at a tabletop game.

Right?

I don't see a meaningful difference.

(of course you still must have a way to reference the rules you're using, but that's outside of this particular point)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Basically, in order for the claim of "double standard" to be true, you must demonstrate what it is that's being treated differently.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Another way to look at this:

I sit down to a tabletop game, with my book.

I take a picture of me sitting at that table, with my book.

I put the book away.

Does my character now suddenly become illegal?

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Redelia wrote:
Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

You can't. There is no method that will work for all parties involved.

And thus, a double standard is created.

Considering Online has just been made its own region with an RVC and VC's, Paizo Organized Play has basically gone all-in with on-line play.

Because there are zero ways to legally (both real life legal or campaign legally) provide proof that you own any book or share said language from the book with the GM, then you can't even play core online. You can't take a screenshot of the PDF and share it, because that's copyright infringement or piracy or whatever you want to call it. You can't use the PRD because that's not a legal source.

So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)

Yes. Both of which are absurd on their face. See above.

So, again, a double standard is created where pbp allows for "maybe you own it, maybe you don't" with posters in this thread advocating for third party websites as acceptable non-proof of ownership.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Redelia wrote:
Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

You can't. There is no method that will work for all parties involved.

And thus, a double standard is created.

Considering Online has just been made its own region with an RVC and VC's, Paizo Organized Play has basically gone all-in with on-line play.

Because there are zero ways to legally (both real life legal or campaign legally) provide proof that you own any book or share said language from the book with the GM, then you can't even play core online. You can't take a screenshot of the PDF and share it, because that's copyright infringement or piracy or whatever you want to call it. You can't use the PRD because that's not a legal source.

So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)

Yes. Both of which are absurd on their face. See above.

So, again, a double standard is created where pbp allows for "maybe you own it, maybe you don't" with posters in this thread advocating for third party websites as acceptable non-proof of ownership.

So if you can't remove online as an option, and you can't remove the need to prove you own a book... then you are left with only the necessity of a double standard.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Another way to look at this:

I sit down to a tabletop game, with my book.

I take a picture of me sitting at that table, with my book.

I put the book away.

Does my character now suddenly become illegal?

No, because you may still reference the book at the table. I want to see someone reference the rules for ride-by attack from a photograph.

Quasi-ownership in pbp is allowed. Referencing third party websites is tacitly encouraged.

Neither are allowed at a table.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:


Neither are allowed at a table.

its not only allowed, I'd go so far as to say its standard opperating procedure. There's just so much material and pdfs just aren't as searchable as the web that looking something up online seems to be the default that i've seen.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:


Neither are allowed at a table.

its not only allowed, I'd go so far as to say its standard opperating procedure. There's just so much material and pdfs just aren't as searchable as the web that looking something up online seems to be the default that i've seen.

Nope!

"Here is a lovely Kyra pregen for you to play."

ETA: If it is, there are a whole mess o' VOs about to get a refresher on the rules of ownership.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Redelia wrote:
Leg o' Lamb, how else would you suggest that we let people prove they own a book in play by post? I mean if they own the hardcover book, not the pdf.

You can't. There is no method that will work for all parties involved.

And thus, a double standard is created.

Considering Online has just been made its own region with an RVC and VC's, Paizo Organized Play has basically gone all-in with on-line play.

Because there are zero ways to legally (both real life legal or campaign legally) provide proof that you own any book or share said language from the book with the GM, then you can't even play core online. You can't take a screenshot of the PDF and share it, because that's copyright infringement or piracy or whatever you want to call it. You can't use the PRD because that's not a legal source.

So essentially, what you are advocating, is either A) remove online as a legal option for Pathfinder Society Play or B) remove the need to prove you own a book or have the book present at any table (on-line or face-to-face.)

Yes. Both of which are absurd on their face. See above.

So, again, a double standard is created where pbp allows for "maybe you own it, maybe you don't" with posters in this thread advocating for third party websites as acceptable non-proof of ownership.

So if you can't remove online as an option, and you can't remove the need to prove you own a book... then you are left with only the necessity of a double standard.

Ain't that some bat guano?

4/5 5/5

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What book is bat guano in? >:}

5/5 5/55/55/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:


Nope!

"Here is a lovely Kyra pregen for you to play."

ETA: If it is, there are a whole mess o' VOs about to get a refresher on the rules of ownership.

Its not a matter of ownership it's a matter or rules lookup.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Magabeus wrote:
What book is bat guano in? >:}

An old one. "33,000 cubic feat? Wait, how big is that? Devil worship, my ass..."

Paizo Employee 4/5 ** Developer

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With at least two of my PCs, the third party sites are more accurate sources than my outdated books. Errata can suck like that.

After an estimated twenty-four conventions, I've never been auditted. My Venture-Captain had an audit two years ago prior to SCARAB, but she saw my six page print-out of PDFs and suitcase full of books and sort of kind of believed me.

If I'm driving to a convention and it happens to be a book that I only own physically? I'll keep the books in my trunk and tell the GM that I can get them if need be.

If I'm flying or didn't expect to play because I was on vacation for other reasons? It is cheaper to buy the book(s) digitally that I only own physically on the spot.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Magabeus wrote:
What book is bat guano in? >:}

Core.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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BigNorseWolf casts burning disarm

Me not remembering if the spell causes damage if you save or if you fail. So, I ask.

BigNorseWolf looks up the spell on third party website and tells me.

Me asks BigNorseWolf if s/he owns "Cheliax: Land of Devils" and has it with him/her.

No? "Would you like to pick a different second level spell, or would you like to play a lovely Kyra pregen?"

Silver Crusade 3/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP

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Leg 'o Lamb, it could go exactly as you describe in a play by post game. The answer would be 'Yes, I own it, and it's sitting on the desk right next to my computer as I'm typing, so I have it with me.' Now what? The GM can't see whether it's there or not. The player is following the rule by having the book with them when they play.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Leg o' Lamb wrote:

BigNorseWolf casts burning disarm

Me not remembering if the spell causes damage if you save or if you fail. So, I ask.

BigNorseWolf looks up the spell on third party website and tells me.

Me asks BigNorseWolf if s/he owns "Cheliax: Land of Devils" and has it with him/her.

No? "Would you like to pick a different second level spell, or would you like to play a lovely Kyra pregen?"

Those are two separate things and you don't need to treat them as one.

1/5

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It's sounding like I should have a few pregens on hand for PaizoCon, just in case.

Shadow Lodge *

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
It's sounding like I should have a few pregens on hand for PaizoCon, just in case.

You can bring several if you like, but you know you'll just end up playing Seoni.

1/5

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I haven't been out of the Grand Lodge* in so long.

*...or whatever faction I'm part of now.

1/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
It's sounding like I should have a few pregens on hand for PaizoCon, just in case.
You can bring several if you like, but you know you'll just end up playing Seoni.

Oh, not for me to play. If I'm going to play, it'll be with meticulously sourced characters.

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