Unusual sized mundane / slotless / not weapon or armor equipment.


Pathfinder Society

1/5

I'll be straight to the point of why I want to know and maybe someone else can more generalize the question.

I want to give my familiar some equipment that is not armor/weapons in this particular case spring-loaded wrist sheaths for a scroll of breath of life. (Yes I understand the using magic items and everythig rules the wonderful recent FAQ on that is very nice and I am including it here for reference)

As of my understanding there are no rules for resizing equipment, but by my understanding of the FAQ I can put slotless equipment on a familiar/animal companion with no problems. Also by the other recent FAQ scrolls are good to go for spring loaded wrist sheaths.

So to me this would work by the rules, but in "I'm thinking about this practically land" those are some tiny wrists and thats gonna end up a tiny scroll and can my familiar and I use the same scroll that was stuff it it's wrist sheath if so tiny and is that wrist sheath really still going to weight 1 lb (or oh goodness what if I give my familiar a handy haversack for the less rush need supplies thats 5 lbs and most of it's light load).

Sorry if there isn't an exact question in there, but I think what I am going for is, does this actually work? And if so are there any rules I am missing that affect it I should know about?

Thanks everyone.

P.S.
Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?
By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for the list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its non-bonus feats for Extra Item Slot for free (bonus feats are marked with a superscript B after the feat’s name). You may retrain your familiar’s other non-bonus feats into Extra Item Slot using the standard rules for feat retraining. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items.

Some Tiny familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat listed as one of their feats, even though they gain the benefits of Weapon Finesse for free from their size. Swapping out this feat does not deprive Tiny familiars of the ability to use its Dexterity to hit.

The following chart specifies the magic item slots that each familiar can unlock. Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes. Celestial, entropic, fiendish, and resolute familiars use the same slots as typical animals of their kind.

All familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word. The following familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen. For more information on these magic item categories, see page 456 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Familiars in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. Most familiars cannot wield weapons in combat. The following familiars can wield weapons: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any), nuglub, pooka, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen.

Some familiars have natural shapeshifting ability. One of the most striking cases is the cassisian familiar, which is listed below in both its humanoid form and its helmet form. Whenever a familiar changes from a form that has access to a magic item slot into a form that does not, the item melded into its body. A melded item provides no benefits. For familiars that can take the shapes of animals, use the standard item categories for that animal listed below.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a familiar. Some of the listed familiars are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.
Arbiter* (eyes, hand, headband, wrist): Arbiter
Auger (eyes, headband): Auger
Avian* (armor, belt, chest [saddle], eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Archaeopteryx, arctic tern, bat, chicken, clockwork familiar, dodo, dove, flying fox, hawk, kakapo, mockingfey, nosoi, osprey, owl, parrot, peacock, penguin, pseudowyvern, ptarmigan, puffin, raven, rhamphorhynchus, snail kite, snowy owl, thrush, toucan
Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, ring, shoulders): Compsognathus, wallaby
Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Brownie, cassisan (Small humanoid form), coral capuchin, faerie dragon, homunculus, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), monkey, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, xiao, zhyen
Cassisian (headband): Cassisian (helmet form)
Floating Head (eyes, head, headband): Doru, spirit oni
None (no item slots): Eyeball, harbinger, paracletus, wysp
Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Popoto dolphin, pufferfish, seal
Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel
Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Goat, pig
Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Snapping turtle, toad, turtle
Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Dwarf caiman, lizard, marine iguana, tuatara
Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): cacodaemon, leopard slug, mamiwa, nehushtan, nycar, pipefox, raktavarna, sea krait, viper, voidworm
Plant/Verminous (belt, eyes): Blue-ringed octopus, clockwork spy, elemental (any type), giant flea, giant isopod, greensting scorpion, house centipede, katroome, king crab, octopus (young template), petrifern, scarlet spider, stirge, trilobite, typhilipede

P.P.S. I'll try to spoiler the FAQ when I get to a computer. On my phone right now.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Zephyre14 wrote:
I'll try to spoiler the FAQ when I get to a computer. On my phone right now.

Tip of the trade: since you already had the URL for the FAQ you can just link to it next time. Much easier than copying and pasting that wall of text (especially on a phone).

That aside, scrolls aren't any smaller for smaller users. A Halfling and a Human use the same size spellbook, wands, and scrolls.

1/5

Yeah I was going to lonk to it, but I don't know how to create links to a position on a page.

...also realized 1 hour edit rules means I can't fix it now, oops.

To the point though, scrolls are all the same size, there are no rules about changing its sizes...just as there are no rules for changing mundane item sizes (in this case the spring loaded wrist sheath), and yet as the rules are written there is no reason I can't equip my familiar with those items for the same mechanical use.

That has me confused...

EDIT: Not really confused, but thinking there must be another rule I am missing about unusual sized items.

Silver Crusade 2/5

{url=descriptive name}htt...actual url here{/url}

replace the curly braces with square brackets and you should be good to go.

the link below the edit box called "how to format your text", click on the 'show' button.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

[URL=www.yourURLhere.com]I like pie[/URL]

...will appear as...

I like pie

1/5

Familiar Items FAQ

If this works then I could have just clicked the in page link that drops to the particular FAQ and used the resulting URL. Didn't realize it created a new URL when you do that.

Familiar Items FAQ:
Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?
By default, familiars do not have any magic item slots, but they can unlock magic item slots associated with their respective body shape. See below for the list of which body slots each familiar is eligible to unlock. To unlock a magic item slot, a familiar must take the Extra Item Slot feat, which appears in Pathfinder Player Companion: Animal Archive and will be reprinted in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide as of version 9.0. In the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, familiars of all body shapes may take this feat, including humanoid-shaped familiars. When you gain a familiar, you may exchange one of its non-bonus feats for Extra Item Slot for free (bonus feats are marked with a superscript B after the feat’s name). You may retrain your familiar’s other non-bonus feats into Extra Item Slot using the standard rules for feat retraining. Familiars may also carry slotless magic items.

Some Tiny familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat listed as one of their feats, even though they gain the benefits of Weapon Finesse for free from their size. Swapping out this feat does not deprive Tiny familiars of the ability to use its Dexterity to hit.

The following chart specifies the magic item slots that each familiar can unlock. Available slots followed by either (saddle) or (horseshoes) denote that creatures of that body type can only wear magic items in those slots if they are saddles or horseshoes, respectively. Creatures without these notes cannot wear saddles or horseshoes. Celestial, entropic, fiendish, and resolute familiars use the same slots as typical animals of their kind.

All familiars can activate the abilities of their use-activated magic items, so long as these abilities do not require a command word. The following familiars can use spell trigger and spell completion magic items, including wands and scrolls, as well as magic items with a command word: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), faerie dragon, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), nosoi, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen. For more information on these magic item categories, see page 456 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

Familiars in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient. Most familiars cannot wield weapons in combat. The following familiars can wield weapons: arbiter, brownie, cassisian (in small humanoid form), imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any), nuglub, pooka, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, and zhyen.

Some familiars have natural shapeshifting ability. One of the most striking cases is the cassisian familiar, which is listed below in both its humanoid form and its helmet form. Whenever a familiar changes from a form that has access to a magic item slot into a form that does not, the item melded into its body. A melded item provides no benefits. For familiars that can take the shapes of animals, use the standard item categories for that animal listed below.

Please review Additional Resources before selecting a familiar. Some of the listed familiars are only legal choices if your character has a Chronicle sheet boon or an archetype that grants access to them.
Arbiter* (eyes, hand, headband, wrist): Arbiter
Auger (eyes, headband): Auger
Avian* (armor, belt, chest [saddle], eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist): Archaeopteryx, arctic tern, bat, chicken, clockwork familiar, dodo, dove, flying fox, hawk, kakapo, mockingfey, nosoi, osprey, owl, parrot, peacock, penguin, pseudowyvern, ptarmigan, puffin, raven, rhamphorhynchus, snail kite, snowy owl, thrush, toucan
Biped [claws/paws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, ring, shoulders): Compsognathus, wallaby
Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Brownie, cassisan (Small humanoid form), coral capuchin, faerie dragon, homunculus, imp, leshy (any), liminal sprite, lyrakien, mephit (any type), monkey, nuglub, pooka, pyrausta, quasit, shikigami, soulbound doll, sprite, xiao, zhyen
Cassisian (headband): Cassisian (helmet form)
Floating Head (eyes, head, headband): Doru, spirit oni
None (no item slots): Eyeball, harbinger, paracletus, wysp
Piscine (belt, chest [saddle], eyes): Popoto dolphin, pufferfish, seal
Quadruped [claws/paws] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Almiraj, arctic fox, arctic hare, armadillo, brain mole, calligraphy wyrm, cat, cat sith, caypup, chuspiki, dire rat, donkey rat, ermine, flying squirrel, fox, hedgehog, koala, lemming, mole, mongoose, otter, platypus, pseudodragon, pseudosphinx, rabbit, raccoon, rat, red panda, silvanshee, skunk, sloth, squirrel, weasel
Quadruped [hooves] (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, feet [horseshoes], head, headband, neck, shoulders): Goat, pig
Quadruped [squat body] (armor, eyes, head, headband, neck, shoulders): Snapping turtle, toad, turtle
Saurian (armor, belt [saddle], chest, eyes, head, headband, neck): Dwarf caiman, lizard, marine iguana, tuatara
Serpentine (belt, eyes, headband): cacodaemon, leopard slug, mamiwa, nehushtan, nycar, pipefox, raktavarna, sea krait, viper, voidworm
Plant/Verminous (belt, eyes): Blue-ringed octopus, clockwork spy, elemental (any type), giant flea, giant isopod, greensting scorpion, house centipede, katroome, king crab, octopus (young template), petrifern, scarlet spider, stirge, trilobite, typhilipede

Okay cool I did it both ways. Too bad I can't fix the OP now.

Back on Topic:
Is there any rules for item sizes for familiars (my particular case is diminutive)?

Otherwise I am left to say that you can give them the same items and they can use them just the same as a medium/small character could.

Meaning despite the practical/logical/real-world problems of my diminutive pyrausta having a spring loaded wrist sheath (that will still weigh 1 lb) loaded with a breath of life spell it mechanically works just fine.

Anything that says otherwise?

Silver Crusade 2/5

Nefreet wrote:

[URL=www.yourURLhere.com]I like pie[/URL]

...will appear as...

I like pie

Far more correct than my post above.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Zephyre14 wrote:

Back on Topic:

Is there any rules for item sizes for familiars (my particular case is diminutive)?

Otherwise I am left to say that you can give them the same items and they can use them just the same as a medium/small character could.

Meaning despite the practical/logical/real-world problems of my diminutive pyrausta having a spring loaded wrist sheath (that will still weigh 1 lb) loaded with a breath of life spell it mechanically works just fine.

Anything that says otherwise?

I think you're technically correct. If an item doesn't specify a range of possible sizes, then it's one size fits all. Except that 1lb weight does add up pretty fast for tiny creatures.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

It's 1/4 lb for small. It has the subscript.

What it weighs for tiny-sized creatures is anyone's guess. 1/32?

1/5

So there is some amount of precedent for the changing size/weight of these kinds of items, though currently limited to small size, and only items such specified, I missed that part, thank you Nefreet.

Then as you said it is anyones guess how it scales out past that or if it even does. Using armor scaling as a reference doesnt work since it has medium to small halving weight not quartering it. Using reduce person guidelines doesn't work as it makes 1/8 weight.

Wonder if there is anything else I am missing out there for this.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Is there any reason the familiar can't walk around with the scroll out?

1/5

The current plan is to have him constantly using a wand of moment of greatness to boost my bard inspire courage for my companions. Essentially at high enough levels I intend to have my character just standing in the back with flagbearer/inspire courage/banner of the ancient kings and using my familiar to boost those bonuses/provide emergency heal/recovery services.

If this doesn't work I can adjust, but even if this character doesn't use this strategy (or any other one involving familiars and gear) I want to make sure if someone else could/couldn't as I also try to GM from time to time.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Have the familiar hold the wand in one hand and the scroll in the other. if someone's dying just drop the wand.

1/5

FAQ wrote:
Familiars in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient.

Specifies one object at a time, which to me meant 1 object total, not one per hand, but with one per hand that would work.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but my research seems to think you only need one available hand for a scroll, so the familiar wouldn't need to drop the wand.

5/5 *****

One object total is how I read it.

3/5

Nefreet wrote:
That aside, scrolls aren't any smaller for smaller users. A Halfling and a Human use the same size spellbook, wands, and scrolls.

I never knew spellbooks (and spell component pouches) did not get a weight discount for small characters.

Now what about rods. The magic items section of the CRB says the metamagic variety are 5 lbs, but also they can be used as a light mace. Would it be ok to apply the small weapons are 1/2 weight rule here? If not would all small character attempting to use a rod as a weapon take the -2 incorrect size penalty. Or are all rods made by small crafters for small users treated as small heavy maces, that can't be right that is making up rules.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I get that the spring loaded wrist sheath can hold some items that it really shouldn't be able to, but a scroll the size of the familiar shooting out of a mundane object is really. Really pushing it.

1/5

Ward Davis:
This kind of stuff extended down to familiar sizes (and I guess also all the way up for AC's) is why this thread exists.

BNW: I understand that sounds pretty absurd, that is why I am asking about all this, because mehanicaly/rules wise there is nothing that says otherwise that I know of. I would be more than happy to buy the mundane item and scroll (or heck even a magical item) at a only usable by a diminutive size (ya know the same as if I bought armor for it).

4/5 ****

Ward Davis wrote:
Now what about rods. The magic items section of the CRB says the metamagic variety are 5 lbs, but also they can be used as a light mace.

That is not what the CRB says.

What is actually says:

CRB wrote:
Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.

Rods that are maces per their description:

Rod of Alertness
Rod of Lordly Might
Rod of Thunder and Lightning
Rod of the Viper (This one is a heavy mace)
Rod of Withering

Note the absence of metamagic rods on that list.

There may have been more rods published in the last couple years that are also maces, I last counted in 2015.

3/5

Thanks Pirate Rob; I read 'many' and thought 'all'.

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