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Note: This small ramble has been inspired mostly from seeing the Ultimate Wilderness product thread, but due to the fact that I don't want to derail it and touch upon a topic that is general for the messageboards, I'll just post it here, I guess.
Is it just me, or does it seem like there's been an increase in "aggressive favouriting" going on recently when some discussions get heated? Like, I get that there's a point to showing that you like something, that you want to retain easy access to something later, or find something funny, but there seems like there can be a ridiculous amount of bandwagoning happening in order to drown out a different opinion with a "silent majority". I'm pretty sure this isn't a healthy thing for the community. Really, there's nothing else that I would like than to see that there can be held respectful conversations without the need of making someone feel isolated for what they are saying.
Maybe we could try to do something about that?
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Why does it bug you? Just ignore it. Or hide the thread.
Edit: Faving a well-composed thoughtful reply saves me the effort of trying to type out a reply to every comment I disagreed with. If everyone who disagreed with a comment replied, the threads would be much longer/unwieldy, grow much more grar filled, and likely make the minority opinion-holder(s) feel even more minimized and/or dogpiled.
Edit 2: Also, what Orthos said.
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It's a quick way to show support and solidarity without flooding the boards with quote-"+1" posts. It's never going away completely, it's too much a core part of human nature, it just manifests differently from place to place.
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Here I was going to chime in with "Ooh! Numeria!" This is less fun.
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I, uh... I have nothing to do with this, that's for sure...
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I, uh... I have nothing to do with this, that's for sure...
Reply hazy, try again later.
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Are you sure you don't mean couture...
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As an aside, showing support in a non-threatening way that identifies who is, in fact, showing support without actually resorting to more arguments that have already been said, and simultaneously allowing it to be shown what you like or agree with is actually an important thing.
While those who disagree with a thing may dislike that said concept recieved "favorites" (because it's something they don't like! Makes sense!) should not silence anyone opposed to the concept (unless the post recieving favorites tells someone else to be silent, and even then it should only work of the opinions expressed are actively harmful, in which case they will likely be moderated anyway).
It allows people to express themselves in a non-verbal manner, allowing a collapse of needless argumentation without endless repetition of basic arguments to get that "perfect wording" that will convince someone else - I mean, that happens anyway, but much less if you've emotionally expressed yourself already by aligning with a "perfect" (or whatever) argument.
It can be intimidating going up against an argument that has a lot of favorites (and so, like anything, favorites can be abused to intimidate people), but that is less toxic (and often times actively helpful to self-expression without reputation, allowing for non-toxic expression and argumentation) than going up against a popular opinion that has a lot of repititious and frustrating arguments (which will reciev detractors with, "you ignored >my< argument" among other things).
It's not a "perfect" system, but nothing ever is: humanity is flawed. It's pretty nice, though, all things considered. And, obviously, I like it!
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Im not a huge fan of it due to sock puppet and base popularity contest concerns, but paizo has done their best to deal with the former and the latter has surprisingly not been much of an issue here.
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Man, okay, like, I have no idea how I failed to edit my post acknowledging that it was, in fact, mostly repititious of Orthos and a Slaad (and owning up to the irony), and also favorited my own post. That is a first-rate fail, right there.
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Sometimes I try to find the favorite button on email, and then remember that's not a thing.
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Sometimes I try to find the favorite button on email, and then remember that's not a thing.
Like.
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Do you really see favoriting as "drowning out" unpopular opinions? If I post something to the messageboards and no one favorites it, it's still there for all to read. And if someone else favorites something else, are they therefore slighting me? Is every favorite or like on the internet a diminishment of the worth of what I put out there? And do you believe that someone who holds a less popular opinion is cowed into silence simply because one post has 20 favorites and theirs has few or one or none?
Because if so, how staggeringly depressing. Mad props to Tacticslion, but his tireless favoriting aside, here nor elsewhere am I particularly "Favorited." I'd prefer to think that whatever value there is in what I might add to any given conversation is independent of the number of people who click a plus sign in the corner of that contribution.
That said, if everyone doesn't favorite this post, I'm probably going to do that thing I do...
INTELLECTUAL ASIDE: Attention, like most resources, likely follows a Pareto curve. This does not mean that it accurately reflects the inherent worth of a person nor the inherent worth of a single utterance to any given person. The illusion that it does is, of course, a natural consequence of our social simian natures. But that makes it no less illusory for all that.
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I think we should all just acknowledge how damn lucky we are there isn't a "don't like" button
'my right
I move we establish a "don't like" button and make it into a wee animated table being flipped.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
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Also, not to hijack the thread (perish the thought), but I must confess to being a bit disappointed that this wasn't a discussion of what our favourite Golarion culture is.
Ustalav. Hands down. Love those pasty depressing magnificent bastards.
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I think we should all just acknowledge how damn lucky we are there isn't a "don't like" button
There's times I've wished for one but generally yes it's for the best that such a thing does not exist here.
If it worked people would legitimately complain that their posts only get downvoted to drown them out, and if it didn't work people would complain that it didn't do anything and thus had no point in existing.
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Also, not to hijack the thread (perish the thought), but I must confess to being a bit disappointed that this wasn't a discussion of what our favourite Golarion culture is.
Ustalav. Hands down. Love those pasty depressing magnificent bastards.
Numeria here, followed by Alkenstar. After that, Irrisen.
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The like button is useful. I don't see a reason to be rid of it. Some people are going to abuse it, but that is true of everything.
A forum I used to go to had a laugh button. Intended to show you thought a post funny. People abused it to mock posts they did not agree with, and it was taken away under the same logic used against the like button on here.
It did not stop the mockery. It merely forced people to be more vocal about it. Part of why I no longer go there.
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The like button is useful. I don't see a reason to be rid of it. Some people are going to abuse it, but that is true of everything.
A forum I used to go to had a laugh button. Intended to show you thought a post funny. People abused it to mock posts they did not agree with, and it was taken away under the same logic used against the like button on here.
It did not stop the mockery. It merely forced people to be more vocal about it. Part of why I no longer go there.
Oh gods... it never occurred to me that people might be ironically favoriting my posts... GAH!
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Also, it's a good way to mark funny posts that make me smile to find again for later amusement. Like this one!
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I think we should all just acknowledge how damn lucky we are there isn't a "don't like" button
'my right
I move we establish a "don't like" button and make it into a wee animated table being flipped.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
No, no, that's what does lead to a toxic culture online, never do it here!
The closest we get on the Paizo boards is when thee's two diametrically opposed views and one gets more likes than the other. As above. Since the number of likes on either side is usually still in the single digits I think drowning out can't occur that way. Everyone on one side or both posting rather than clicking that little plus sign could do so maybe.
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No, no, that's what does lead to a toxic culture online, never do it here!I move we establish a "don't like" button and make it into a wee animated table being flipped.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
But... but... it's my idiom...
*sadly jiggles end table*
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Edit: Faving a well-composed thoughtful reply saves me the effort of trying to type out a reply to every comment I disagreed with. If everyone who disagreed with a comment replied, the threads would be much longer/unwieldy, grow much more grar filled, and likely make the minority opinion-holder(s) feel even more minimized and/or dogpiled.
As a follow-up: Faving a reply means I can usually let someone else's (or several someone elses') well-composed thoughtful response(s) speak for the angry sweary response(s) I would have made. Responses which would have gotten me permabanned* years ago.
* Although the day isn't over yet...
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I normally don't give too much attention to the number of likes a post gets. When I do it myself, I do it mainly for the same reasons Ambrosia Slaad just stated, but I don't think that this ever was an indicator to me for how important or interesting a certain post is. With my own posts, it's nice to see when people share my opinion, but I'm not out to get as many likes as possible
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I, uh... I have nothing to do with this, that's for sure...
I sometimes picture you clicking away like a maniac, frantically trying to favourite every post on the boards as thousands and thousands keep rolling in every day. :)
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Besides the various uses people have listed above, I also use it to let the other poster know I’ve seen the post when I’m not going to respond to it.
When a thread goes on long enough there’s often just me and them left posting (or we’re quoting one another discussing some trivial point as the thread goes on around us). I generally try to reply to anyone who posts “to” me at least once, but if it becomes clear that we’ve exhausted the lines of discussion and there’s not much more to say, I’ll often favourite their last post. That way they’re not left wondering if I read their last comment (and I’m hoping it’s meaning is clear and they won’t expect a reply).
Ironically, that means that a lot of my favourites are of something I disagree with at the end of a long run of unfavorited posts all saying similar things. In retrospect, maybe I’ve been giving the impression I’m finally conceding the point... :)
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I've fav'd things that I have almost immediately flagged thereafter.
They made me laugh at first, and then a half-second later my rational brain-parts kick in and go WTF were you just laughing at? Did you even stop to THINK about the other side of that?.
I've fav'd things that I didn't particularly agree with but I could see a cohesive logic and path that wasn't 'I'm going to hammer this topic until everyone dies of boredom or old age'.
I've fav'd things that I've agreed with on varying levels, because as other learned souls earlier in this thread have noted, it is far easier than either the extra stanky dish of vitriol I'd serve up or the ten page long rebuttal that would hit the same points that have been addressed far more clearly and with far less word count.
I much prefer the option to 'favorite' only.
One of the other forums I was on for a little while, tied to a major MMO, had 'thumbs up' and 'thumbs down'. THAT was a toxic forum, and the surest way to see the negativity was when a sensible logical post would go up, and almost immediately get fifty 'thumbs down' because folks didn't like the idea of sensible logic interfering with their troll-fest.
All of the above being said, I don't bite people's heads off. If someone has concerns with what I post, please contact me privately and respectfully.
Life is too short to waste it on crap.
The forums here are not crap.
The favorite system is not crap.
May we all find wisdom and harmony on our paths, always learning, always growing.
Man, okay, like, I have no idea how I failed to edit my post acknowledging that it was, in fact, mostly repititious of Orthos and a Slaad (and owning up to the irony), and also favorited my own post. That is a first-rate fail, right there.
... why is it still favorite'd?!
I... I... I can click the tiny "-" button any time I want, I swear!
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No, no, that's what does lead to a toxic culture online, never do it here!I move we establish a "don't like" button and make it into a wee animated table being flipped.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
But... but... it's my idiom...
*sadly jiggles end table*
Look, I'll be honest, without giving a flying flip about the argument in question, I'm likely going to click the thing just to see the table flip.
Hhhheeeeeeeehheheheheheheheh
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I don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilarious
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Sure, wire me 1k USD and I'll tone it down a little.Maybe we could try to do something about that?
When they do msg me I know this Nigerian prince who could use some cash.
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I don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilarious
I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they're all only favoriting us ironically. I can almost hear the *snerk* sounds every time someone favorites one of my posts... like sarcastic rats in the walls...
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I don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilarious
Maybe you just neede to put moure u's evrywheure and tack on more unnecessary e's on the ende of everye wourd, like a true Englishman.
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I don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilariousMaybe you just neede to put moure u's evrywheure and tack on more unnecessary e's on the ende of everye wourd, like a true Englishman.
I believe it's spelt Eungluishmuan, guvnor.
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I learned from Tacticslion, so I favorite everything, but I'm also lazy and have shitty aim, so it's more amateurish.
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I don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilariousI hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they're all only favoriting us ironically. I can almost hear the *snerk* sounds every time someone favorites one of my posts... like sarcastic rats in the walls...
Oh, no, they're hipsters
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Oh, no, they're hipstersI don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilariousI hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they're all only favoriting us ironically. I can almost hear the *snerk* sounds every time someone favorites one of my posts... like sarcastic rats in the walls...
Did somebody say "flipsters"?! HRNGH!
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻
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I wonder if +1 would be better overall if it was anoymous.
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Oh, no, they're hipstersI don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilariousI hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they're all only favoriting us ironically. I can almost hear the *snerk* sounds every time someone favorites one of my posts... like sarcastic rats in the walls...
Hmmm, Ironical Chef... it can have fixies, and PBR, and dumpster diving for chef wear, and eating off hubcabs... {lights flicker as copper-wound Chairman Kaga spins even faster}
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Give this robot chef a six season TV deal!
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Hmmm, Ironical Chef... it can have fixies, and PBR, and dumpster diving for chef wear, and eating off hubcabs... {lights flicker as copper-wound Chairman Kaga spins even faster}Oh, no, they're hipstersI don't feel like my posts get enough favorites I think we should enforce more favoriteing. I'm just saying I'm hilariousI hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure they're all only favoriting us ironically. I can almost hear the *snerk* sounds every time someone favorites one of my posts... like sarcastic rats in the walls...
i hate you even more than I normally do.
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I wonder if +1 would be better overall if it was anoymous.
No.
It would be *worse*.
Here, there's at least a *name* being attached to a given favorite. It means there's a certain level of accountability, and folks can watch for other threads from those who fav'd to see if they can gain further wisdom.
Removing that, and then it becomes the anonymous 'blob' of 'unknown consent'/'board peer pressure' that the OP was concerned about.
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I wonder if +1 would be better overall if it was anoymous.No.
It would be *worse*.
Here, there's at least a *name* being attached to a given favorite. It means there's a certain level of accountability, and folks can watch for other threads from those who fav'd to see if they can gain further wisdom.
Removing that, and then it becomes the anonymous 'blob' of 'unknown consent'/'board peer pressure' that the OP was concerned about.
There have been many times when I click on the link to see who agrees with a contentious comment. Most of the time, it's the people I expect to see... but there have been several times when I spot a name or two I'm surprised to see there, someone(s) whose opinions I respect. That is what will get me to go back through the conversation to re-read what was actually written and to screen out what I thought was there/read into it. It doesn't usually change my overall opinion, but it does help me pick up nuances in their positions and some of my biases and/or misconceptions that I missed on my first Perception and Sense Motive checks.
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This is a double-edged sword, of course.
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This is a double-edged sword, of course.
Understanding... is a three-edged sword...
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This is a double-edged sword, of course.Understanding... is a three-edged sword...
Star-knives laugh at your low edge-count.