Flag-Bearer Bard vs Archer Bard


Advice


(PFS legal only) I wanna be a good contribution to my party, but am unsure of which route I should take.
I’ve heard both good and bad things about each route, and was wondering which route would help a party the best.
My stats are: ( Already selected)

Musetouched Aasimar Bard I
Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16
First feat: Angelic Blood

Any suggestions for future feats, gear, etc is welcomed, but please make it PFS legal
Thanks for the help


The reason for Angelic Blood is due to me wanting wings later in the game


Archer bard is VERY feat intensive (requires all feats moreorless). Angelic wings requires two feats. These two things clash too much to work out well at all.

That makes flag-bearer bard as the option to go. This will give you GREAT party contribution in the form of big buffs at minimal resource cost. The biggest thing to go for is to get boot strapped fast.

Consider, you will the need Angelic Blood (and another feat for wings) and Flagbearer feats to get to the build you want. Angelic Blood does pretty much nothing for you at level 1. Flagbearer sets half the build for you at level 1. You should consider picking Flagbearer instead as your level 1 feat.

You don't actually need the Angelic Blood feat until level 7. And that is only if you plan to retrain your level 9 feat to Angelic Wings at level 10. That is the earliest path into those wings.

So, your level 3 and level 5 feats are also free to play around with to better the flag-bearer part of the build. If you plan to use a long spear (advisable with the Banner of the Ancient Kings), then you will be AOO fishing. Combat Reflexes could be good. Getting the buffs up early is also good, so Improved Reflexes is noteworthy.

Here is an example feat order that might suit you:

1st: Flagbearer
3rd: Combat Reflexes
5th: Improved Initiative
7th: Angelic Blood
9th: Placeholder (retrained to Angelic Wings at 10th)

Items you will want:

- Long Spear
- Banner of the Ancient Kings (18k - around 7th to 8th)

Archetype that might interest you: Arcane Duelist

- Arcane Strike as a bonus feat
- Arcane Bond: cheaper long spear upgrades equals DR penetration faster
- Disruptive for extra enemy spell caster debuffing


Rory wrote:

Archer bard is VERY feat intensive (requires all feats moreorless). Angelic wings requires two feats. These two things clash too much to work out well at all.

That makes flag-bearer bard as the option to go. This will give you GREAT party contribution in the form of big buffs at minimal resource cost. The biggest thing to go for is to get boot strapped fast.

Consider, you will the need Angelic Blood (and another feat for wings) and Flagbearer feats to get to the build you want. Angelic Blood does pretty much nothing for you at level 1. Flagbearer sets half the build for you at level 1. You should consider picking Flagbearer instead as your level 1 feat.

You don't actually need the Angelic Blood feat until level 7. And that is only if you plan to retrain your level 9 feat to Angelic Wings at level 10. That is the earliest path into those wings.

So, your level 3 and level 5 feats are also free to play around with to better the flag-bearer part of the build. If you plan to use a long spear (advisable with the Banner of the Ancient Kings), then you will be AOO fishing. Combat Reflexes could be good. Getting the buffs up early is also good, so Improved Reflexes is noteworthy.

Here is an example feat order that might suit you:

1st: Flagbearer
3rd: Combat Reflexes
5th: Improved Initiative
7th: Angelic Blood
9th: Placeholder (retrained to Angelic Wings at 10th)

Items you will want:

- Long Spear
- Banner of the Ancient Kings (18k - around 7th to 8th)

Archetype that might interest you: Arcane Duelist

- Arcane Strike as a bonus feat
- Arcane Bond: cheaper long spear upgrades equals DR penetration faster
- Disruptive for extra enemy spell caster debuffing

Thanks for all the help! How do I go about retraining to get my 1 st feat changed.


GonzDave wrote:
Thanks for all the help! How do I go about retraining to get my 1 st feat changed.

If you have yet to play level 2, then you can change it for free at anytime.

If you have played at level 2, you will have to retrain using the retrain rules. You'll have to make a decision whether it is worth it at that point. If you are close to level 3, for example, you can get Flagbearer feat then, which is the key feat for the flagbearer build.

Retrain Rules.

Feat
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.

Summary for Retraining a Feat in PFS:

5 Prestige Points = 1 Prestige x 5 days of training (for a feat)
50 gold x character level = 10 gold x Character Level x 5 days of training (for a feat)

Dark Archive

Rory wrote:

Archer bard is VERY feat intensive (requires all feats moreorless). Angelic wings requires two feats. These two things clash too much to work out well at all.

That makes flag-bearer bard as the option to go. This will give you GREAT party contribution in the form of big buffs at minimal resource cost. The biggest thing to go for is to get boot strapped fast.

Consider, you will the need Angelic Blood (and another feat for wings) and Flagbearer feats to get to the build you want. Angelic Blood does pretty much nothing for you at level 1. Flagbearer sets half the build for you at level 1. You should consider picking Flagbearer instead as your level 1 feat.

You don't actually need the Angelic Blood feat until level 7. And that is only if you plan to retrain your level 9 feat to Angelic Wings at level 10. That is the earliest path into those wings.

So, your level 3 and level 5 feats are also free to play around with to better the flag-bearer part of the build. If you plan to use a long spear (advisable with the Banner of the Ancient Kings), then you will be AOO fishing. Combat Reflexes could be good. Getting the buffs up early is also good, so Improved Reflexes is noteworthy.

Here is an example feat order that might suit you:

1st: Flagbearer
3rd: Combat Reflexes
5th: Improved Initiative
7th: Angelic Blood
9th: Placeholder (retrained to Angelic Wings at 10th)

Items you will want:

- Long Spear
- Banner of the Ancient Kings (18k - around 7th to 8th)

Archetype that might interest you: Arcane Duelist

- Arcane Strike as a bonus feat
- Arcane Bond: cheaper long spear upgrades equals DR penetration faster
- Disruptive for extra enemy spell caster debuffing

dont you need 2 hands for a long spear and a free hand for flagbearer? how are you planning to wield 3 hands worth of objects?

Grand Lodge

You don't need a free hand for flagbearer, unlike say spell strike spell combat, you need to hold it in one hand.

This is where things get wierd. Often but not alway a lesser version of something counts has the higher versions. If you need 5 skill tanksor 17 Dex for a feat it means 5+ ranks or 17+ dex. So holding it in two hands could count as still holding in in one hand. This is a pretty obtuse reading though.

But does this idea apply to holding an object, I would says unlikely but there is a lot of confusion about words like wield and hold in the system.

So you would have flagbearer up (in one hand), switch to two hands, everybody loses the bonus and attack. You can the switch back to one hand for the bonus or you can keep two hand on for potential aoos. You can fix this whole problem with community minded, I think this should work but it may not as flagbearer does not have a duration.

This all gets much worse when you get the banner of ancient kings and you have to hold it in two hands.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The banner of the ancient kings lets you put your banner on the longspear. But up until then you need a free hand doing nothing but holding the flag.


Name Violation wrote:
dont you need 2 hands for a long spear and a free hand for flagbearer? how are you planning to wield 3 hands worth of objects?

1. Attach the flag to a polearm (long spear) per Ultimate Equipment.

2. Wield the longspear.

If the question comes down to this line (highlighted below): "You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus."

I personally have not played under a GM yet that said that holding onto a polearm with two hands is also not being held with one hand. Most interpret it to mean that you have to be holding/wielding the flag, which requires at least one hand, instead of having it strapped to your back.

Banner of the Ancient Kings specifically calls out to place it on a long spear, so that issue, if it ever did arise, becomes moot at that point.

***********************************

BANNER

Price 1–20 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

This is a banner, flag, or pennant. You tie it to a pole, lance, or polearm. Most are woven, dyed, or painted with a pattern or symbol, such as a knight's crest or a country's flag. A simple banner with one field color and a simple insignia such as a weapon or shield costs 1 gp. A banner with two to four field colors and a complex insignia such as a lion or dragon costs 5 gp. A detailed banner with four or more field colors and a very complex insignia, such as a heraldic device with eight or more sections, costs 20 gp.

Flagbearer (Combat)

Prerequisites: Cha 15.

Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).

Banner of the Ancient Kings

Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 18,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

This tattered white canvas banner looks like an old piece of sailcloth, or perhaps a winding shroud—a 4-foot-by-6-foot rectangle with loops that can fit over a spear haft or pole running up one side. If mounted on a longspear or pole at least 8 feet in length, the banner shifts in appearance to match the heraldry or coat of arms of the person who attached it. If that person has no device, the flag instead displays a device that echoes the owner’s personality (such as a favorite animal, favored weapon, or holy symbol of the wielder’s deity).

When carried into battle, a banner of the ancient kings confers several benefits. As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands, its carrier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Initiative checks. In addition, when so wielded, it grants the wielder and all allies within 30 feet a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against mind-affecting effects. If the carrier of the banner fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting effect, he may attempt a new saving throw against that effect every round he continues to wield the banner of the ancient kings—once he releases his firm grip on the banner’s haft, though, he no longer gets this benefit, even if he wields the banner properly at a later point while still under the effects of the mind-affecting effect.

If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability.

Silver Crusade

Quite frankly, a flagbearer bard and an archer bard are going to play so completely differently that they may as well be different classes.

Both will contribute to the parties success.

The question is definitely which game style appeals to you.

A flagbearer bard will be primarily buffing his allies, any damage he himself does is pretty much gravy on top of that. Its not the focus of the character. Money, stats and actions will go to buffing and NOT to damage. As a player, you have to enjoy the pleasure of watching your allies kick ass because you won't be kicking it yourself.

Personally, with a flag bearer bard I tend to pump my charisma a lot and cast spells a lot and totally ignore actual damage dealt. But being a secondary damage dealer is a viable path.

An archer bard is primarily an archer and only secondarily a buffer. Most battles your contribution is going to be shooting the enemy in the face with an occassional buff for the battles that warrant it (at least until Bardic Performance becomes a move or swift action). You get to kill stuff a lot. You'll be taking a lot more self buff spells, you'll be spending actions on shooting, etc.


I wol advice you to also take phalanx formation feat, so you can fight with the longspear over heads of your allies.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Flag-Bearer Bard vs Archer Bard All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.