|
The Gods listed in the corebook are the 20 most popular Gods around.
In Pathfinder's era, in the Inner Sea region, that's a different group than it is in Starfinder.
As for what happened to cause this, many results are specified in the Starfinder Corebook:
Torag and Rovagug vanished with Golarion. Shelyn is off questing for a way to fix her brother and thus paying less attention to stuff locally. Lamashtu and Asmodeus are still around, just not as prominent, and Calistria has also fallen from prominence as the Elves became more isolationist.
Gozreh, Irori, Nethys, Norgorber, Erastil, Cayden Cailean, and Gorum are all likely just less prominent, but we have no mention of them at all in the book. Many falling from prominence make immediate and intuitive sense, though (Erastil and Gozreh due to being disinterested in spaceflight, Norgorber, Irori, Cayden Cailean, and Nethys due to being very local to Golarion). Gorum's the only one that really cries out for further explanation.
Gorum was a war deity closely identified with barbarians and half-orcs IIRC, both of which are less prevalent in the Pact Worlds setting.
The most interesting question about old pantheon versus new probably has to do with what the Devourer's relationship is to Rovagug of old, which in turn probably has something very directly to do with the Gap and the disappearance of Golarion.
I'm pretty certain that Shelyn managed to release all the souls from the Whisperer of Souls and that failed to free Zon Kuthon from his madness so now she's off in the deep darkness where he got twisted to try and figure out how to save him.
Torag and Rovagug vanished with Golarion. Shelyn is off questing for a way to fix her brother and thus paying less attention to stuff locally.
Hold the phone tonto. Why would the dwarves take part in the Quest of Sky if Torag vanished.
Hold the phone tonto. Why would the dwarves take part in the Quest of Sky if Torag vanished.
Torag and Rovagug vanished with Golarion. Shelyn is off questing for a way to fix her brother and thus paying less attention to stuff locally.
The Quest for Sky happened on Golarion and has nothing to do with Starfinder. Golarion vanished in the Gap.
Pg. 506 Starfinder Core, Pathfinder Legacy
"Among the strongest dwarven traditions is the Quest for Sky, a belief that Torag commanded his people to leave their underground homes on Golarion and fight a generations long war to reach the surface. While many dwarves feel the Quest for Sky was fulfilled, some explore far from the Pact Worlds in belief that the original journey was only the first stage of the quest and that Torag now wants them to find some specific alien sky for which they're destined."
The Quest for Sky happened on Golarion and has nothing to do with Starfinder. Golarion vanished in the Gap.
There's a lot of flavor text in the SF:CRB that suggests that the Quest for Sky is still on in Starfinder, at least for some dwarves. I believe I read about it in both the Dwarven racial entry and the entry for the Ironstar (a dwarven colony ship) at least. IIRC, there are some dwarves that think that the "sky" in the quest was always the sky of another planet and they're out searching for it in the vast. I think Torag's brother (?Aragog? my memory fails) is the one guarding them on their quest now that Torag left.
Pg. 506 Starfinder Core, Pathfinder Legacy
"Among the strongest dwarven traditions is the Quest for Sky, a belief that Torag commanded his people to leave their underground homes on Golarion and fight a generations long war to reach the surface. While many dwarves feel the Quest for Sky was fulfilled, some explore far from the Pact Worlds in belief that the original journey was only the first stage of the quest and that Torag now wants them to find some specific alien sky for which they're destined."
Oh, I see what you mean. Interesting.
Honestly that's actually a more fun idea than Torag being gone in the Gap for my money. But clearly either one or the other has be in error. Since I can't find the idea of Torag being gone actually in writing anywhere -- that seems to stem from a quote at a panel at some event -- and since it's unlikely for people to worship something they can't contact in this setting, I guess then I would have to lean to Torag not being gone. (Or maybe being worshipped through / with some divine relative as @pithica42 suggests.)
There's a lot of flavor text in the SF:CRB that suggests that the Quest for Sky is still on in Starfinder, at least for some dwarves. I believe I read about it in both the Dwarven racial entry and the entry for the Ironstar (a dwarven colony ship) at least. IIRC, there are some dwarves that think that the "sky" in the quest was always the sky of another planet and they're out searching for it in the vast. I think Torag's brother (?Aragog? my memory fails) is the one guarding them on their quest now that Torag left.
From what I've seen. Torag is still around, only backseat driving.
I had the understanding that the dwarven tradition is that Torag stayed on Golarian as a sort of Eternal Guardian as a part of the Events of the Gap and formally passed the mantle of God of the Dwarves onto Angradd as a part of that noble sacrifice.
Have *no* idea where I heard that though.
Pg. 506 Starfinder Core, Pathfinder Legacy
"Among the strongest dwarven traditions is the Quest for Sky, a belief that Torag commanded his people to leave their underground homes on Golarion and fight a generations long war to reach the surface. While many dwarves feel the Quest for Sky was fulfilled, some explore far from the Pact Worlds in belief that the original journey was only the first stage of the quest and that Torag now wants them to find some specific alien sky for which they're destined."
Oh, I see what you mean. Interesting.
Honestly that's actually a more fun idea than Torag being gone in the Gap for my money. But clearly either one or the other has be in error. Since I can't find the idea of Torag being gone actually in writing anywhere -- that seems to stem from a quote at a panel at some event -- and since it's unlikely for people to worship something they can't contact in this setting, I guess then I would have to lean to Torag not being gone. (Or maybe being worshipped through / with some divine relative as @pithica42 suggests.)
I don't see a contradiction here.
The Quest for the Sky started before the Gap, when it was instigated by Torag. And now, after the Gap, when Torag is gone, there are some dwarves who feel that the Quest still isn't complete.
Christianity didn't stop just because nobody could talk directly to Jesus anymore. Even though no one can contact Torag now, does that make his command to his chosen people any less valid? Especially if his successor, Angradd, doesn't actively contradict those dwarves who still believe the Quest is not yet done?
Also, in the first Dead Suns book there's a Torag-blessed Anvil that is very specifically said to be one of the last links to Torag, who vanished in the Gap, that they have access to, and considered a very valuable artifact as a result.
I thought I read that he had vanished somewhere. Thanks for pointing that out. Thought I might be going crazy.
Hazrond!!!!!! THERE IS A SPOILER DIRECTIVE FOR A REASON! I havent gotten to play dead suns yet. :(
It has absolutely nothing to do with the plot at all, it's just the extra setting info they put in the back of the book, there was an article about a bunch of different artifacts from Golarion that survived the Gap.
The Quest for the Sky started before the Gap, when it was instigated by Torag. And now, after the Gap, when Torag is gone, there are some dwarves who feel that the Quest still isn't complete.
Christianity didn't stop just because nobody could talk directly to Jesus anymore. Even though no one can contact Torag now, does that make his command to his chosen people any less valid? Especially if his successor, Angradd, doesn't actively contradict those dwarves who still believe the Quest is not yet done?
It's an interesting question.
I would expect the ways religion functions to be vastly different in a setting where direct communion with one's Gods is expected and normal. In our world it wouldn't matter, but in a universe where a God has gone silent -- and in which the memories, traditions and records that might have been associated with, say, Torag's connection of the Quest to interstellar travel were wiped out by the Gap -- its lack of a voice would seem crippling to its credibility with followers. But maybe not.
Starfinder Design Lead
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The fact Torag has vanished along with Golarian during the Gap is covered in the core rulebook in the entry for the "Other God" Angradd (Torag's younger brother), on page 493.
Many dwarves do believe the Quest for Sky is not complete, and are looking for the "Sky" in question out among the stars. Since Angradd "exhorts the dual importance of upholding ancient dwarven traditions and fighting to preserve them," and Torag was his elder brother, I think it makes perfect sense for him to support the Quest for Sky as the new God of Dwarves, even if it was not he who directed the dwarves to begin it in the first place.
That some dwarves are taking the continued Quest for Sky seriously is noted in the entry for the Ironstar, on page 462, the "largest of the dwarven star citadels."
This is some of the stuff that excites me most about the Starfinder setting, though obviously I haven't had a major opportunity to explore it much yet.
Thank you Owen.
Going off your theory Owen. Wouldn't the Quest For Sky be forgotten during the Gap?
Nah, people know history from before the Gap, and that is where The Quest For Sky comes from.
|
Starfinder Design Lead
|
PRE-Gap history remains known and researchable. That's why it's a "Gap" and not a "Wall." There's lots of information about what happened Before the Gap, and After the Gap, just not During the Gap.
So as a significantly pre-Gap event, the Quest for Sky is well documented in dwarven histories.
Wasn't the Gap supposed to have erased or make any history unavailable or severely encrypted or make certain phone calls to our favorite tentacley god that it's basically unusable? Saying it like that the Elves would have had it easier than how the book has described it. Which was an event so traumatic that they essentially closed their borders in case another Gap event happens.
Wasn't the Gap supposed to have erased or make any history unavailable or severely encrypted or make certain phone calls to our favorite tentacley god that it's basically unusable? Saying it like that the Elves would have had it easier than how the book has described it. Which was an event so traumatic that they essentially closed their borders in case another Gap event happens.
The Elves might have had it easier had it been a brief few hundred years or so. But the Gap extends for several generations of even Elven lifespans. The only beings alive today that could have also been alive pre-Gap would be Immortals. The Elves largely have so much more issue because their longer lives mean: 1) They are missing centuries rather than years or maybe decades of life, and 2) They're within, like, 1-3 generations of the end, compared to most other races' several generations.
The Elves might have had it easier had it been a brief few hundred years or so. But the Gap extends for several generations of even Elven lifespans. The only beings alive today that could have also been alive pre-Gap would be Immortals. The Elves largely have so much more issue because their longer lives mean: 1) They are missing centuries rather than years or maybe decades of life, and 2) They're within, like, 1-3 generations of the end, compared to most other races' several generations.
Going off #2. Practical or biblical?
|
Starfinder Design Lead
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The core rulebook says elves can naturally live up to 750 years (page 507).
According to the Pact Worlds Timeline (page 426), the Gap ended 317 years ago.
There are still many elves who were adults when the Gap ended, who are essentially orphans to their own lives. They knew what skills they had, where they lived, how to speak one or more languages... but had no idea WHY they knew those things. No idea what they did in their lives prior to that moment.
For them, living now and teaching schools and writing books, and holding discussing, the Gap is an event in their own lives. That trauma is still present in the existing older generation.
|
Starfinder Design Lead
|
The crucial information about the Gap is covered in "History," on page 424.
History books become unreliable, only becoming reliable when referring to the ancient past. (So pre-Gap events far enough back remain well documented.)
People retained all skills, knowledge, and interpersonal connections from their lives, but specific memories were gone. You knew who you were married to. You knew how your spouse liked their coffee. You had no idea where you met them, or how long you'd been married.
Main reason why I say biblical is that a biblical generation is 10,000 years per human.
But still Owen. How you described the gap made it sound like a clerical error on the elves part or something forgotten in the bureaucracy wars of 93, instead of the brain gouging like mi-gos would do in their favorite hobby of brain jarring people.
The crucial information about the Gap is covered in "History," on page 424.
History books become unreliable, only becoming reliable when referring to the ancient past. (So pre-Gap events far enough back remain well documented.)
People retained all skills, knowledge, and interpersonal connections from their lives, but specific memories were gone. You knew who you were married to. You knew how your spouse liked their coffee. You had no idea where you met them, or how long you'd been married.
From what I heard and interpreted was that any and all information pre-Gap was deleted at worst and somebody thought gibberish and crayon was a good way to write books at best. I did understand that what you know personally, spouse/family/kids, skills and what not is remembered but birthdates, anniversaries, and specific memories were not. To me it felt like that scene from the Bladerunner 2049 trailers where not Decker was asking for a guy about a pre blackout serial number, and instead of the nat 20 roll of it's still in the system, it's the nat 20 roll of I found it and I can't read this.
Sorry for the late response on this post. I was still focused on typing my post.
The crucial information about the Gap is covered in "History," on page 424.
History books become unreliable, only becoming reliable when referring to the ancient past. (So pre-Gap events far enough back remain well documented.)
People retained all skills, knowledge, and interpersonal connections from their lives, but specific memories were gone. You knew who you were married to. You knew how your spouse liked their coffee. You had no idea where you met them, or how long you'd been married.From what I heard and interpreted was that any and all information pre-Gap was deleted at worst and somebody thought gibberish and crayon was a good way to write books at best. I did understand that what you know personally, spouse/family/kids, skills and what not is remembered but birthdates, anniversaries, and specific memories were not. To me it felt like that scene from the Bladerunner 2049 trailers where not Decker was asking for a guy about a pre blackout serial number, and instead of the nat 20 roll of it's still in the system, it's the nat 20 roll of I found it and I can't read this.
Sorry for the late response on this post. I was still focused on typing my post.
As I understand it this is how it is for information from during the gap, but not so much before it. It's just, like, there is a lot of history that was during the Gap.
That's what I understand.
As I said on another board, it's kinda funny that "history books becoming unreliable" is a big deal WRT the Gap -- it's not like history books have ever been easily "reliable" -- but the thought of the vast tracts of oral history and memory that were wiped out is a different matter. And that was without reckoning that it's a living-memory trauma for many Elves, which explains a lot about the post-Gap Elves.
My understanding is that it's not just history books (and memories of the people alive when the gap ended), it's all historically referential data. Letters, diaries, and newspaper articles (and their digital equivalents) written during the gap found in archives are gibberish. Relics appear to be mixed up in the date lines in archaeology sites with stuff that should be much later showing up randomly in earlier dig sites. Stars and planets that should be in place X are somehow way out of their pre-gap trajectories. Ships with scars of battle cannot be examined to determine when (or where) that battle occurred. Even reliable chemical methods for dating/placing are out of whack for the gap.
It's like someone restarted the simulation without reloading the history tables into memory. Every thread picked back up in the middle of the operations but with all of the non-static data pointers pointing to invalid memory addresses. Basically, all* the contextual information is gone.
* Apparently it's not everything, every now and again someone finds some tiny bit of historical data that works. It's usually something small, like the tax records of a single business for a single quarter in a random year inside the gap. Several groups, including the Starfinder Society, are actively collecting as many of these pieces as they can to try and figure out WTH happened.
Rovagug vanished with Golarion.
Hold everything, why is this not the literal most important thing happening right now in the entire Starfinder universe? Rovagug, for those who haven't read much on him, literally destroys worlds and kills Gods, that's all he cares about. And they just drop that no one knows if he is still in the Dead Vault.
You have the most destructive and dangerous being in existence, whose blood created the Tarrasque and no one knows where he went? A dozen named gods and a number of unknown gods, couldn't kill him and at best locked him away.
Who says he's not the reason Golarion is gone. Perhaps he escaped or was let free and it took so much magic to finally defeat him (or reseal him) that the backlash/repercussions created the Gap.
I want to know why Asmodeus doesn't rule over us all. I mean come on, everyone wakes up with no memory, and he doesn't take advantage of that situation? He could have come out and said "here's what happened, I won! mwahaha!"
Who says he's not the reason Golarion is gone. Perhaps he escaped or was let free and it took so much magic to finally defeat him (or reseal him) that the backlash/repercussions created the Gap.
I want to know why Asmodeus doesn't rule over us all. I mean come on, everyone wakes up with no memory, and he doesn't take advantage of that situation? He could have come out and said "here's what happened, I won! mwahaha!"
To add to this, we don't know if Golarion is destroyed, and I kind of hope it is, just because that too would not kill the Tarrasque, so you would in essence have this giant sleeping monster floating through space and probably land on some unsuspecting planet.
Probably Daimalko. Just because it would probably go unnoticed on a planet with Colossi, but the Tarrasque being immortal would be far more dangerous than any of the other monstrosities on that planet.
As to the other gods, I hope they don't drop the ball like how they did with the Drow, by just putting them in space and changing nothing about them. Which is why I am against the future Archives having more traditional monsters, simply because I don't just want Hill Giants, in space, they need to show how all these gods and monsters adapted to the huge technological changes to everyday life.
Even more, we always hear tell of races forsaking a god for another, how about a Patron God of a Race forsakes their race for another. Torag got sick of the dwarves for whatever reason, but f@%!ing Skittermanders, that's where it's at. Would be an interesting idea, then you can provide that as an adjusted racial motivation to re-earn the affection of your god.
Edited: Lazy word choice.
|
|
Rovagug vanished with Golarion.Hold everything, why is this not the literal most important thing happening right now in the entire Starfinder universe? Rovagug, for those who haven't read much on him, literally destroys worlds and kills Gods, that's all he cares about. And they just drop that no one knows if he is still in the Dead Vault.
You have the most destructive and dangerous being in existence, whose blood created the Tarrasque and no one knows where he went? A dozen named gods and a number of unknown gods, couldn't kill him and at best locked him away.
Well, given the lack of universe and God destruction that's occurred, and the complete lack of evidence that Golarion was destroyed either, I think the assumption is that Rovagug is still imprisoned in Golarion.
Wherever the heck that is.
Rovagug vanished with Golarion.Hold everything, why is this not the literal most important thing happening right now in the entire Starfinder universe? Rovagug, for those who haven't read much on him, literally destroys worlds and kills Gods, that's all he cares about. And they just drop that no one knows if he is still in the Dead Vault.
You have the most destructive and dangerous being in existence, whose blood created the Tarrasque and no one knows where he went? A dozen named gods and a number of unknown gods, couldn't kill him and at best locked him away.
Probably, because there is a bigger, nastier, god out there that is known simply as The Devourer. The Devourer doesn't stop at worlds and gods, it wants to destroy all reality. Kind of hard to get upset by he disappearance of a world destroyer when a full on reality destroyer is on the loose.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rovagug and the Devourer must be related somehow. I wonder if Rovagug isn't an emanation or a piece of the Devourer (I almost said "offspring" but I guess it would be the antithesis of anything-that-has-offspring).
The core rulebook says elves can naturally live up to 750 years (page 507).
According to the Pact Worlds Timeline (page 426), the Gap ended 317 years ago.
There are still many elves who were adults when the Gap ended, who are essentially orphans to their own lives. They knew what skills they had, where they lived, how to speak one or more languages... but had no idea WHY they knew those things. No idea what they did in their lives prior to that moment.
For them, living now and teaching schools and writing books, and holding discussing, the Gap is an event in their own lives. That trauma is still present in the existing older generation.
Does this mean that there are elves who remember pre-Gap time, living on Golarion, have a blank for the Gap, and now have the memories of the last 317 years?
Does this mean that there are elves who remember pre-Gap time, living on Golarion, have a blank for the Gap, and now have the memories of the last 317 years?The core rulebook says elves can naturally live up to 750 years (page 507).
According to the Pact Worlds Timeline (page 426), the Gap ended 317 years ago.
There are still many elves who were adults when the Gap ended, who are essentially orphans to their own lives. They knew what skills they had, where they lived, how to speak one or more languages... but had no idea WHY they knew those things. No idea what they did in their lives prior to that moment.
For them, living now and teaching schools and writing books, and holding discussing, the Gap is an event in their own lives. That trauma is still present in the existing older generation.
The gap was a long time. Far longer than 433 years. in fact, some people theorize the actual duration of the Gap goes all the way back to before the earliest chronological Pathfinder Adventure Path. An Elf born mere minutes before the Gap started would be long dead by now.
The gap was a long time. Far longer than 433 years. in fact, some people theorize the actual duration of the Gap goes all the way back to before the earliest chronological Pathfinder Adventure Path. An Elf born mere minutes before the Gap started would be long dead by now.Does this mean that there are elves who remember pre-Gap time, living on Golarion, have a blank for the Gap, and now have the memories of the last 317 years?The core rulebook says elves can naturally live up to 750 years (page 507).
According to the Pact Worlds Timeline (page 426), the Gap ended 317 years ago.
There are still many elves who were adults when the Gap ended, who are essentially orphans to their own lives. They knew what skills they had, where they lived, how to speak one or more languages... but had no idea WHY they knew those things. No idea what they did in their lives prior to that moment.
For them, living now and teaching schools and writing books, and holding discussing, the Gap is an event in their own lives. That trauma is still present in the existing older generation.
Shakes his head. For some reason, I had the impression that the GAP had only lasted 300 years or so. Upon re-reading, it is clear that it was much longer.
Hmm, maybe have an elf who was "stoned" before the GAP, and then returned to life after the GAP - could be a fun character to play.
Probably, because there is a bigger, nastier, god out there that is known simply as The Devourer. The Devourer doesn't stop at worlds and gods, it wants to destroy all reality. Kind of hard to get upset by he disappearance of a world destroyer when a full on reality destroyer is on the loose.
You know destroying all of creation was Rovagug's goal too, right?
Also worth noting that "The Devourer" was one of Rovagug's titles in Pathfinder. Their portfolios are nearly identical too and The Devourer's real name has been curiously lost to history.
I'd be more surprised if they weren't just the same thing (or something along those lines). Too weirdly redundant otherwise.
Or else especially ancient Wizards that gained Immortality at level 20.
EDIT: And some Monks, there's an archetype that gained functional immortality through Reincarnation at 20. Either way though, very niche cases.
Rovagug was the Big Daddy Qlippoth.
The Devourer... seems a wee bit different.
The gap was a long time. Far longer than 433 years. in fact, some people theorize the actual duration of the Gap goes all the way back to before the earliest chronological Pathfinder Adventure Path. An Elf born mere minutes before the Gap started would be long dead by now.
And the length varies depending on where you are.
I think here's a good rule of thumb for the gap: it's however long enough it needs to be to wipe out living/mortal memory. So however long dragons live is probably a good minimum for how long the Gap probably lasted in the Pact Worlds. Undead, petrified people, etc, I think something disrupted them, like written and electronic records were scrambled.
And, even if they survived and were on the material plane, they may have woken up one Tuesday and have no idea what happened for the last X-thousand years.