Gnomes get a -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha. But why do they get +2 Cha. If they are the tinkering race should the get +2 Int not +2 Cha.
Though if this was done Gnome Magic needs to change from Cha to Int.
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Gnomes are fey-like and "their attitude makes them naturally agreeable". Aka, high charisma.
They do in Starfinder. Or, at the very least, bleachling gnomes do.
I think Elves should get a +2 to Wisdom because they thematically are often Druids and Rangers.
I think Dwarves should get a +2 Intelligence because they are supposed to be craftsman.
Gnomes tinker because of natural curiosity, not because they are smarter than other races. I believe there is a case for elves to get a bonus to Wis instead of Int, but there are many versions of elves and everyone has a favorite. Dwarves don’t need an Int bonus to craft things. It’s cultural, and they get a racial bonus.
gnomes too get a racial bonus to one craft of their choice. The idea is that their tinkering is a means of grounding themselves in the material world.
I don't think Paizo will ever give a playable character race both an INT bump and a CON bump.
Wizards are overpowered as it is.
There are bleachling gnomes that have that exact modifier that you are looking for.
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Personally i have never understood why Gnomes get +2 Con, other than the fact that if they had 2+ Dex, they would be identical to halflings.
They could have given Halfling -2 to Con instead of Str to make the difference but noooo....
Yes i am still bitter about it.
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They could have given Halfling -2 to Con instead of Str to make the difference but noooo....
I guess this is because Tolkien's hobbits were hardy folk. Cannot stray too far from J.R.R.
They could have given Halfling -2 to Con instead of Str to make the difference but noooo....
I guess this is because Tolkien's hobbits were hardy folk. Cannot stray too far from J.R.R.
Hit it right in the head. Let's just copy paste races from Tolkien while completely ignoring his themes.
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I do think it was a bad design to have two small-sized, high-charisma, low-strength races in the core book. They just fill too many of the same niches. But what’s done is done.
If you gave gnomes s Wis bonus, then they’d be too close to dwarves.
I don't think Paizo will ever give a playable character race both an INT bump and a CON bump.
Wizards are overpowered as it is.
This setup isn't going to matter with wizards considering everything they can do. I think the only reason they haven't done it yet it is because nothing has flavor that fits.
Elves are get int as a bonus, and a +2 bonus to bypass SR which directly helps them be better wizards. Most wizards aren't getting hit too much and when they do that +2 con isn't likely to be a factor, but failing the SR check can definitely change things since it's a wasted spell. Elves have a -con modifier, and they still make good arcanist and wizards, and can still have decent fort save.
I don't think Paizo will ever give a playable character race both an INT bump and a CON bump.
Wizards are overpowered as it is.
This setup isn't going to matter with wizards considering everything they can do. I think the only reason they haven't done it yet it is because nothing has flavor that fits.
Elves are get int as a bonus, and a +2 bonus to bypass SR which directly helps them be better wizards. Most wizards aren't getting hit too much and when they do that +2 con isn't likely to be a factor, but failing the SR check can definitely change things since it's a wasted spell. Elves have a -con modifier, and they still make good arcanist and wizards, and can still have decent fort save.
I was agreeing with you up until "and can still have decent fort saves" which technically is true, but it requires a good bit of investment to make it so.
If you wanted to keep the fey flavor while still giving them stats that differentiate them from the other races, I'd go with a penalty to constitution and bonuses to wisdom and charisma. Since those stats are a little on the weak side, I'd also give them a lesser version of fey foundling, where they heal an extra hit point per die of healing done from spells and effects, with a minimum extra hit point if no dice are used.
I think dragonlance gnomes had the +2 con +2 int.
If you wanted to keep the fey flavor while still giving them stats that differentiate them from the other races, I'd go with a penalty to constitution and bonuses to wisdom and charisma. Since those stats are a little on the weak side, I'd also give them a lesser version of fey foundling, where they heal an extra hit point per die of healing done from spells and effects, with a minimum extra hit point if no dice are used.
That would not work because gnomes use Standard ability score.
"Standard (0 RP): Members of this race gain a +2 bonus to one physical ability score, a +2 bonus to one mental ability score, and a –2 penalty to any other ability score."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/racialQual ities.html#ability-score-modifier-quality
Looking over the description of gnomes, I don't see anything that indicates gnomes are at all 'tinkery', aside from their potential skill bonus to a Craft skill. Nothing in the Society or Adventurer's section, at the very least.
Is this some memory remnant from Dragonlance? AFAIK, that's the only setting where gnomes were mechanically inclined (even if they were idiots about it).
If you wanted to keep the fey flavor while still giving them stats that differentiate them from the other races, I'd go with a penalty to constitution and bonuses to wisdom and charisma. Since those stats are a little on the weak side, I'd also give them a lesser version of fey foundling, where they heal an extra hit point per die of healing done from spells and effects, with a minimum extra hit point if no dice are used.That would not work because gnomes use Standard ability score.
"Standard (0 RP): Members of this race gain a +2 bonus to one physical ability score, a +2 bonus to one mental ability score, and a –2 penalty to any other ability score."
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/racialQual ities.html#ability-score-modifier-quality
And I’m suggesting to not do that. It’d actually be sub-standard ability scores, which is why I suggested giving them a little extra.
Gnomes are fey-like and "their attitude makes them naturally agreeable". Aka, high charisma.
Gnomes did get +2 Int prior to Pathfinder.
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Charisma is force of personality and gnomes are bubbling with it.
And they have to be. Gnomes are a race that literally die of boredom.
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I think Paizo had little choice. They had to include Gnomes and they couldn't stray too far from the 3.5 version of them.
I wouldn't change anything because I'm too lazy, but if I had to make my own setting and make my own races I'd come up with:
A small race that replaces Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings but also Goblins and Kobolds. Many players complain about races being stereotypes, this will be a race that can fill the stereotypes of all the small races. +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha.
An immortal race with an inclination to order. Highly resistant to, well, dying. Younger immortals can be more chaotic and are more likely to go on adventures. They don't resemble dwarves physically, but they do share some of their traits. +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Str.
A race of savages with a spark of chaos. This one is hard to figure out as they'll need some kind of fury ability. A few of the savages found peace in monasteries as they use martial arts and meditation to control their fury. +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int.
Humans ofcourse.
My design philosophy:
- All races should't be forced into one specific stereotype. Humans get their standard versatility. The other races have at least two stereotypes that are at odds with each other.
- The first 3 races cover all 6 ability scores, with human as a 4th race.
- There's a law versus chaos theme in the background.
Charisma is force of personality and gnomes are bubbling with it.
And they have to be. Gnomes are a race that literally die of boredom.
This. This is the reason.
These aren't your old-school D&D gnomes nor your invention-obsessed Dragonlance gnomes. Pathfinder gnomes are different.
Charisma is force of personality and gnomes are bubbling with it.
And they have to be. Gnomes are a race that literally die of boredom.
This. This is the reason.
These aren't your old-school D&D gnomes nor your invention-obsessed Dragonlance gnomes. Pathfinder gnomes are different.
But which came first, the lore or the stats? The current gnome stats make sense for the current gnome lore, but they also make gnomes a fairly unpopular race, as halflings fill most of the same niches and usually do a better job at it.
But if the gnomes had been an intelligence based race, their lore would be different to match that.
Charisma is force of personality and gnomes are bubbling with it.
And they have to be. Gnomes are a race that literally die of boredom.
This. This is the reason.
These aren't your old-school D&D gnomes nor your invention-obsessed Dragonlance gnomes. Pathfinder gnomes are different.
But which came first, the lore or the stats? The current gnome stats make sense for the current gnome lore, but they also make gnomes a fairly unpopular race, as halflings fill most of the same niches and usually do a better job at it.
But if the gnomes had been an intelligence based race, their lore would be different to match that.
I think that gnomes are better options for Sorcerers and Oracles, or any CHA based full caster.
I don't think Paizo will ever give a playable character race both an INT bump and a CON bump.
Wizards are overpowered as it is.
Yaddithian +2 con, +2 Int, -2 wis
The ultimate wizards!
Charisma is force of personality and gnomes are bubbling with it.
And they have to be. Gnomes are a race that literally die of boredom.
This. This is the reason.
These aren't your old-school D&D gnomes nor your invention-obsessed Dragonlance gnomes. Pathfinder gnomes are different.
But which came first, the lore or the stats? The current gnome stats make sense for the current gnome lore, but they also make gnomes a fairly unpopular race, as halflings fill most of the same niches and usually do a better job at it.
But if the gnomes had been an intelligence based race, their lore would be different to match that.
Re: order: don't know, don't care. They were published simultaneously.
Re: popularity, my experience doesn't match this at all. I've seen easily three times as many gnome PCs as halfling PCs. Of course, my anecdote is about as useful as your standalone assertion, so there's that.
Now keep your hands off my ADD-gnomes. I like 'em that way. If you want Int-gnomes, by all means, go nuts.
As said previously, it's a matter of the tone of the race.
Thanks to Tolkien, t's pretty standard to assume that dwarves will usually be portrayed as stout, stubborn miners and smiths. Likewise, elves are enigmatic, graceful and wise, etc.
There are other themes and motifs for these races throughout folklore (see: elves are tiny craftsman that make shoes or work for Santa), but mainstream fantasy has largely agreed to go with Tolkien's idea.
Halflings and gnomes are trickier, though. Hobbits are also called halflings, but the description of 3rd edition gnomes (large eyes, jolly, etc) was much closer to hobbits than halflings.
There is a ton of folklore that associates gnomes with cogs and steam and explosions, lIke smaller, more manic dwarves.
But then, there's plenty of literature that talks about gnomes in the same way that people talk about elves.
Elves, gnomes, dwarves...sprites, pixies, trolls, satyrs, faun--they all fit under the "faerie" category. Which, at that point, is basically a term for humanoid things that aren't human.
D&D struggled to figure out which direction to take gnomes in, and in an attempt to avoid making a tiny version of elves and dwarves, settled with something that's a bit of everything.
Pathfinder decided to go in a more definitive direction.
And you don't have to go in that direction. Just make sure your players know your gnomes are more of the inventy, steampunk-type or whatever before they sit down to make characters.
Ratfolk make the ultimate wizards...
I was delighted to find the gnomes in Starfinder that come with INT.
MAke a race almost exactly like gnome but change that to Int and call them thinker gnomes. (maybe replace the illusion thing with skill focus engineering or something. )
side thread jack
ADD Gnomeblahpers is this advanced dungeons and dragons gnome
or
Attention Deficit Disorder Gnomeend thread jack
: D
I think the AD&D gnome would have a +1 to Intelligence. I’m sure that doesn’t help.
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Gnomes are fey-like and "their attitude makes them naturally agreeable". Aka, high charisma.Gnomes did get +2 Int prior to Pathfinder.
How much prior? Not in 3.5.
How much prior? Not in 3.5.Gnomes are fey-like and "their attitude makes them naturally agreeable". Aka, high charisma.Gnomes did get +2 Int prior to Pathfinder.
In 2e AD&D, they had a +1 to Intelligence, -1 to Wisdom. In 1e AD&D, they got no racial modifiers at all. So if there were any versions of Gnomes out there with a +2 to Intelligence, it was no Players Handbook version.
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Gnomes get a -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha. But why do they get +2 Cha. If they are the tinkering race should the get +2 Int not +2 Cha.
Though if this was done Gnome Magic needs to change from Cha to Int.
Gnome flavor is all over the board, because different settings have sort of flailed around trying to find some themes that make them stand out, IMO.
Tinker-y gnomes are more of a Dragonlance, Spelljammer and, occasionally, Forgotten Realms thing, and yet basic gnomes also had Illusion-specialist Wizard as their favored class in 3.0. (It changed to Bard in 3.5, IIRC.)
Pathfinder gnomes are not really all that tinker-y or associated with clockworks, although you could certainly lean them in that direction with a fondness for alchemy, and, especially, fireworks. Their iconic is a druid (and later a summoner), and Bleachlings are apparently even more likely to be druids, IIRC, which suggests a Wisdom bonus might be more on-theme for them.
My house rule is that gnomes have a +2 to one mental attribute, Int, Wis or Cha, chosen at character generation. This is not genetic, but random (for non-PCs, who don't get to choose their stats), so that two nature-loving +2 Wisdom gnomes could have a daughter who loves taking stuff apart (and, unlike most gnome children, proceeds to then put things back together!) and has a +2 Intelligence. It's not nearly as free-floating as the Human +2 to Any Stat option, but adds a little bit of variety.
I also add some options for Dwarves, Elves and Halflings, but that's not particularly relevant to this discussion.
I think there should be at least 2 subraces of Gnomes. The forrest Gnomes, as written, and earth gnomes, that live underground, craft machines, and such.
They have a bonus to intelligence instead of charisma. Bigger noses too. Give them a bonus to smell ferrous metals and oil, crude and refined. They would also be better able to detect hazardous mine gasses. This is reflected in their keen senses, but it also adds to knowledge checks for identifying these things. Take away the defensive training against giants and gnome magic, except they can speak with burrowing animals. They would be the predominate gnome race in Starfinder.
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MAke a race almost exactly like gnome but change that to Int and call them thinker gnomes. (maybe replace the illusion thing with skill focus engineering or something. )
Or "knowmes." On account of the Int bonus? Amiright?
I'll show myself out.
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I was expecting to see some mention of the gnomes from when I grew into this hobby with (back in old D&D days, maybe up thru 1st edition...) - and depending on whose game I played in Gnomes were often very different... here's a few types...
1) The Gnomes of Zurich - bankers, watchmakers, and chocolatiers. Lived high in mountain glades and meadows. Industrious, related to Dwarves but not dwelling in underground caverns, but in burrows like badgers or rabbits.
2) The underground mountain gnomes, into communal living, sort of like short Dwarves, but with mustaches and not much in the way of beards. They considered themselves to be a race "primarily of workers under a democratic internal hierarchy governed by the principle of democratic centralism" ... basically old school Bolsheviks. Picture Boris from Rocky and Bullwinkle.
3) Forrest dwellers found in glades in the woods, kind of like intelligent rabbits. These guys were more fey like, and were said to be related to Brownies and Pixies and Sprites...
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We could just do them like we do Kitsune.
Keen Kitsune (which replaces Kitsune Ability Score Modifiers - Blood of the Beast pg. 12)
"Although amiable, kitsune are notoriously clever and cunning, often far more than they seem. Such characters gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence instead of Dexterity and Charisma. This racial trait alters the kitsune’s ability score modifiers."
In fact, there are a lot of similarities between Kitsune and Gnomes...IMHO.
Both +2 Cha and +2 Int make sense for gnomes, so why not both... Remove +2 Con, stick with -2 Str, and you have an oddball race that needs some unusual character builds to make good use of the ability score distribution.
That would break the 'standard' modifiers (+2 to a physical score & to a mental one, -2 to any one other) which are used for elves, dwarves and halflings. But hey, gnomes are supposed to be oddballs.