Does Water Dancer Monk get double charisma to AC?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So the Water Dancer Monk from Ultimate Wilderness has this ability:

Nereid’s Grace (Su): When unarmored and unencumbered,
a water dancer adds 1 point of Charisma bonus per monk
level to his Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If he is caught
flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also
loses this bonus. He uses his Charisma score instead of his
Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the
DC and effects of monk class features.

This replaces the bonus feat the monk normally
gains at 1st level.

Now, since the archetype does not lose the monk's AC bonus class feature, does that mean that such a Thing is a "monk class feature based off of wisdom"?

If true, This archetype could get some rather ridiculous AC totals, since Nerid's Grace is a Dodge bonus and gets around the double stat to x FAQ.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nice


cant find via google linky?


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Sometimes Paizo not editing their books leaves us with weak half baked archetypes and classes. Sometimes this happens instead.


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That does seem how the rules are written, though I think it might be an oversight (i.e. unintentional).


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Assume that this will get the FAQ/Errata hammer very soon. Paizo detests the double stacking thing, but this is an interesting oversight.


Lady-J wrote:
cant find via google linky?

It might not be up on the pfsrd.

But in short you loose flurry, stunning fist, and quivering palm for a basic water blast from kineticist. So it COULD be intentional because of the potential damage drop since you also deal US damage as Monk -4.

You lose the 1st bonus feat for the Nerid's Grace ability, and the 2nd, 6th,10th,14th, and 18th feats for wild talents at -2 monk level And you lose evasion for kineticists burn class feature and improved evasion for metakinesis.

The other abilities are basically fluff trades as far as I can tell. Not SUPER relevant.


Deadkitten wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
cant find via google linky?

It might not be up on the pfsrd.

But in short you loose flurry, stunning fist, and quivering palm for a basic water blast from kineticist. So it COULD be intentional because of the potential damage drop since you also deal US damage as Monk -4.

You lose the 1st bonus feat for the Nerid's Grace ability, and the 2nd, 6th,10th,14th, and 18th feats for wild talents at -2 monk level And you lose evasion for kineticists burn class feature and improved evasion for metakinesis.

The other abilities are basically fluff trades as far as I can tell. Not SUPER relevant.

that just sounds eww

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Deadkitten wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
cant find via google linky?

It might not be up on the pfsrd.

But in short you loose flurry, stunning fist, and quivering palm for a basic water blast from kineticist. So it COULD be intentional because of the potential damage drop since you also deal US damage as Monk -4.

You lose the 1st bonus feat for the Nerid's Grace ability, and the 2nd, 6th,10th,14th, and 18th feats for wild talents at -2 monk level And you lose evasion for kineticists burn class feature and improved evasion for metakinesis.

The other abilities are basically fluff trades as far as I can tell. Not SUPER relevant.

It might be intentional for another reason... the abilities use burn, but you don't gain gather power. So your defense needs to be better to compensate. Having to pay for Nereid's Grace with a trade supports this a little, while the level cap keeps it from being an all-at-once dip benefit.


Yea the archetype seems SUPER defensive, it definitely hurts in the damage area.

But you could probably get it to work alright if you dip kineticist and get another element or waters defensive talent.

You could maybe get a decent idea going with ride the blast and some type of lockdown build, since you can grab the talent that makes you large.

I never really built a monk or a kineticist so I'm just shooting in the dark here.


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I assumed that they keep their wisdom bonus to AC and got their charisma as a dodge bonus. Sort of making up for not getting Shroud of Water defensive ability.


Dodge bonuses stack, right? So you could use Crane Style and Osyluth's Guile to get triple your CHA to AC, right?


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Dodge bonuses stack, right? So you could use Crane Style and Osyluth's Guile to get triple your CHA to AC, right?

I thought there was an FAQ with Scaled Fist Monk and Osyluth's Guile that said no to the double Charisma to AC.


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The only FAQ I'm aware of is that untyped bonuses equal to an attribute mod never stack, but bonuses of different types stack, and dodge bonuses stack with other dodge bonuses.

The Scaled Fist (and the Nornkith, and the Water Dancer) gives an untyped bonus equal to your charisma modifier to AC (just like a normal monk does with Wisdom) and Osyluth's Guile provides a Dodge bonus (as does the Water Dancer's Nereid's Grace). In theory if you could get a dodge, morale, sacred, luck, deflection, and insight bonus to AC all keyed off the same stat if they were to print those options, but Sidestep Secret and Scaled Fist aren't going to stack because those are both untyped.

The way that this specifically is not wholly unreasonable is that you lose your dodge bonuses when you're denied your dex to AC, so invest in sense motive.


I thought that Oracle of Nature/Lunar/Whatever and Scaled Monk couldn't stack due to receiving the bonus from the same that, despite one being a dex replacement and the other being untype bonused.


SorrySleeping wrote:
I thought that Oracle of Nature/Lunar/Whatever and Scaled Monk couldn't stack due to receiving the bonus from the same that, despite one being a dex replacement and the other being untype bonused.

Both are untyped bonuses and therefor don't stack. In essence, they are both 'charisma bonuses' but for some reason it was FAR too simple to simple to actual state it that way. Just think of each stat as a type of bonus that doesn't stack with itself [replacement or addition doesn't matter].

EDIT: To OP, yes it gets Cha to ac then 1/level Charisma bonus as a dodge bonus. Seems fair/balance for what it gains/loses but I would be unsurprised if it gets super-orbital-space nuke/nerfed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Dodge bonuses stack, right? So you could use Crane Style and Osyluth's Guile to get triple your CHA to AC, right?

Crane Style is a +4 dodge bonus, not "dodge bonus equal to your charisma bonus"?

But Osyluth's Guild is dodge (charisma) and should stack with this 1/level dodge (charisma) due to all "dodge" bonuses rule.

But it falls into the same category as untyped. It's very clear they shouldn't stack. It's two dodge bonuses from the same "source" your charisma bonus. Plus we have the offensive defensive FAQ example to say it shouldn't stack.


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Since the Water Dancer is only available to the chained monk (it replaces quivering palm) I think it's fair to expect that this won't get nerfed, since "especially strong options for the CRB Monk" don't exactly have a history of getting nerfed (e.g. it appears that the Sohei can still take Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat at level 1, nobody's put a stop to that.)

Particularly since "be a water dancer and have a really high AC" isn't exactly the sort of thing that is going to be abused by other classes who dip into monk (which is why the MoMS got fixed.)


James Risner wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Dodge bonuses stack, right? So you could use Crane Style and Osyluth's Guile to get triple your CHA to AC, right?

Crane Style is a +4 dodge bonus, not "dodge bonus equal to your charisma bonus"?

But Osyluth's Guild is dodge (charisma) and should stack with this 1/level dodge (charisma) due to all "dodge" bonuses rule.

But it falls into the same category as untyped. It's very clear they shouldn't stack. It's two dodge bonuses from the same "source" your charisma bonus. Plus we have the offensive defensive FAQ example to say it shouldn't stack.

"offensive defensive FAQ" just made a ruling that IT'S dodge bonuses didn't stack and even THAT ruling was predicated on it NOT being "a final decision". So I don't think anything can be gleaned from it.

As to the multiple nested source FAQ that invented things out of whole cloth... I refuse to reply about it as it will just raise my blood pressure for no good reason. I'll just say that there is no proof that 'same source' trumps dodge bonuses 'always stacks': see "offensive defensive FAQ"'s not "a final decision".


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Since the Water Dancer is only available to the chained monk (it replaces quivering palm) I think it's fair to expect that this won't get nerfed, since "especially strong options for the CRB Monk" don't exactly have a history of getting nerfed (e.g. it appears that the Sohei can still take Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat at level 1, nobody's put a stop to that.)

Particularly since "be a water dancer and have a really high AC" isn't exactly the sort of thing that is going to be abused by other classes who dip into monk (which is why the MoMS got fixed.)

why would unchained monk not be able to take it paizo have stated all new monk archetypes will be compatible with unchained monk


Lady-J wrote:
why would unchained monk not be able to take it paizo have stated all new monk archetypes will be compatible with unchained monk

Please post a link or page number or something along those lines. I've never seen this so I'd love to confirm.


Lady-J wrote:
why would unchained monk not be able to take it paizo have stated all new monk archetypes will be compatible with unchained monk

When did they say that? They've published several archetypes since Unchained that aren't compatible with the Unchained Monk, specifically because they are especially powerful (notably the Nornkith). By my count none of the monk archetypes in Ultimate Wilderness are compatible with the Unchained Monk (IIRC they all replace Quivering Palm).

If you want to work out an agreement with your GM that instead of replacing Quivering Palm, you replace the 16th level Ki Power that could have been Quivering Palm, you are free to do that but the general rule is that monk archetypes don't work with the Unchained monk unless they say they do. Archetypes compatible with the Unchained Monk have text like "This ability replaces abundant step. (For the unchained monk, this ability replaces the monk’s ki ability gained at 12th level.)" If you just replace abundant step, you're not compatible.

This is probably for the best since you can make a stronger archetype for a weak base class than you can for a strong base class, and people who want super-powerful things can do all the conversions themselves pretty easily when it comes to the unchained classes.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
why would unchained monk not be able to take it paizo have stated all new monk archetypes will be compatible with unchained monk

When did they say that? They've published several archetypes since Unchained that aren't compatible with the Unchained Monk, specifically because they are especially powerful (notably the Nornkith). By my count none of the monk archetypes in Ultimate Wilderness are compatible with the Unchained Monk (IIRC they all replace Quivering Palm).

If you want to work out an agreement with your GM that instead of replacing Quivering Palm, you replace the 16th level Ki Power that could have been Quivering Palm, you are free to do that but the general rule is that monk archetypes don't work with the Unchained monk unless they say they do. Archetypes compatible with the Unchained Monk have text like "This ability replaces abundant step. (For the unchained monk, this ability replaces the monk’s ki ability gained at 12th level.)" If you just replace abundant step, you're not compatible.

This is probably for the best since you can make a stronger archetype for a weak base class than you can for a strong base class, and people who want super-powerful things can do all the conversions themselves pretty easily when it comes to the unchained classes.

i fail to see how either of those would be too strong on an unchained monk


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If you don't think something is too strong, in your game you can allow it.

But by RAW the Unchained Monk does not have a feature called "Quivering Palm" to replace, so an archetype that replaces a class feature called "Quivering Palm" can't be used with the Unchained Monk.


A one-level dip in Water Dancer Monk is still going to be attractive for something like a Feyspeaker druid.

CHA +1 dodge bonus, low armor, substantial natural armor/size bonuses to AC.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Lady-J wrote:
why would unchained monk not be able to take it paizo have stated all new monk archetypes will be compatible with unchained monk

No monk archetypes work unless they tell you how they differ in chained and unchained. So unless it says how it works in both, it doesn't work in unchained.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Or it says that it is an archetype for the unchained monk in the first place. I thought I remembered seeing at least one monk archetype that works only for the unchained monk.


The interesting "compatible with the UnMonk?" archetype to me is the Master of Many Styles, since there are literally no class features replaced by the MoMs that the UnMonk doesn't get at exactly the same levels. All you are replacing is your flurry (same name, level 1), your capstone (same name, level 20), and you get different bonus feats (same list of feats, levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14...) It does not *say* it's compatible (so by that line in Unchained it's not), but the conversion is absolutely trivial and it doesn't seem like such an upgrade that it wouldn't be okay to officially okay it.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
The interesting "compatible with the UnMonk?" archetype to me is the Master of Many Styles, since there are literally no class features replaced by the MoMs that the UnMonk doesn't get at exactly the same levels. All you are replacing is your flurry (same name, level 1), your capstone (same name, level 20), and you get different bonus feats (same list of feats, levels 1, 2, 6, 10, 14...) It does not *say* it's compatible (so by that line in Unchained it's not), but the conversion is absolutely trivial and it doesn't seem like such an upgrade that it wouldn't be okay to officially okay it.

It's that the trade of power is different. Flurry of blows is a big boost to the core monk and losing it is supposed to be a big deal, but since unchained has full bab always it's less of a blow to lose flurry so that makes the trade "over-powered" for the unchained monk.

example
Core monk trades 100 for 100
u monk trades 90 for 100
U monk got an unbalanced deal and thus it is prevented.

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