Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Hello, Fellow GMs!
This discussion has sprung out of Have you stopped caring about the new classes?, a discussion in which many of my fellow GMs discussed frustration at having to GM for classes that they may not fully understand yet, and the burden that this puts upon them.
Fret not. You are not alone. Although wacky builds can send any GM around the bend, I have some useful tips to help you.
Put aside the thought that you need to understand everything about every class. Pathfinder is huge. We don't expect GMs to have all rulebooks memorized. For the most part, I like to trust that players know their characters.
You do not need all answers in real-time. When in doubt, make a table ruling now and look it up later.
One thing that I love to do when new classes come out is read Player Guides. Zenith Games keeps a Comprehensive Guide to the Guides. I love reading the guides printed here for several reasons.
- Perspective. First, they provide a review of the class, even if many of them are quite biased towards optimization and power. Reading them can be a great introduction to what a class is about, and how they may be used.
- Learning about popular build ideas. Second, if your players are bringing crazy builds to your table, chances are they got the idea for their crazy build from one of these guides! Forewarned is forearmed!
- The linked discussions. Now it is true that some of these guides may have weird bits of misinformation or odd biases that color their evaluations. I have several times built great characters out of abilities that guides thought were terrible! They're not definitive, they're just one person's opinion. Which is why I also want to point you to the links where Zenith has thoughtfully linked to the message board discussion for each guide! In there you will find dissenting opinions, corrections, etc. This is a great way to get up to date with a new class FAST.
Recently, I have started creating GM Questionnaires for nearly every scenario that I GM. I do this for several reasons.
- To catch scenario call-backs that refer back to other scenarios. Want to find out if a character has played Black Waters? Ask them.
- To catch things that the scenario's NPCs may be looking for. If they are seeking out arcane casters, then find out if you have them in the party.
- To catch any other weird interactions with the PCs that might be mentioned in the scenario. Need to know if someone has precision damage, Profession gambler or blue clothing? Ask your players in advance.
- To have fun. Let's get a sense of the personalities that are coming to my table!
What are your tips? Let's share them here!
Hmm
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On potential crazy builds, I follow the example of a couple of our local VOs. I ask before the briefing, "Is there anything unusual I need to know about?" This can cover anything from a druid with monk levels who turns into a bat and starts flurrying to a half-orc paladin using a feat to ride a triceratops to a sorceror using bloodline powers to hit undead with mind affecting powers to someone doing mounted charges while riding a wasp. This gives me the chance to go over any applicable rules with the player ahead of time. This also makes it less likely that I will surprise the player with an unexpected ruling.
^^^This...
This is probably the single best way I've seen and found myself, to help alleviate that initial, "Wha!?" moment when a player pulls something outta their botuckus...
That still doesn't stop those moments when an AC reaches 40+ at less than level 9 (or 30+ at less than level 5) or ridiculous Witch DCs.
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This is easy to do in PbP or pre-determined groups in a non-convention venue.
It's a bit more difficult to implement at a convention venue, though the idea and intent is well-meaning.
...it's often hard just to get the PFS sign-in sheet around the table, getting an additional piece through is an order of magnitude more difficult. Most players come to play Pathfinder, not World of Bureaucrat...
That being thought, I did try the sign-in sheet for a recent scenario, Hilary, and it did help, though it took nearly as long to get people to fill it out as it did to get them all seated to play.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Yes, questionnaires are tougher to do in Convention slots. Still worth it to cover all those Season 9 Scenario call backs, though! For everything else at conventions, It may be best to wing it most of the time.
Speaking of winging it... How come there are no wings or beaks on your GM alias, Wageslave? I was expecting a more tengu-themed alias from you!
Hmm
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It'd be easy to fall to this one, but...
is not the reason.
...basically, the butt-kicker that keeps me working on prepping my scenarios in a neat and timely obsessive fashion.
Developer
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I have a simple set of rules I'd follow if I wasn't a compulsive mechanics vacuum from which only awkward questions arise.
1. Peace. When in doubt, side with the player. Very rarely are players "cheating" and catching them doing something wrong is embarassing. Realize that the Micheal Scott level of uncomfortable you will bring the table is ten times worse than some broken combo the player has.
2. Perspective: When in more further doubt, count to three and look at the grand scheme of things. Think of the most broken PFS legal build you can. Is it worse than what the player is doing? Heck, I've seen GMs stop the game and make rulings that made a martial character objectively worse at her level than any of the martial pregens.
3. Presentation: Write down your questions for later. Don't be afraid to spend the bio-break asking the player what that was. Approach the player as a player, not as a GM. "Man how did you do that? That was amazing!" is much better than "ok show me the rules for that because that is total BS."
4. Preparation: Especially if your group is 2 tables or less, ask your players to think about the characters they are going to use in advance. If you don't have time, ask during character introductions for a player to brag a little about their most defining feature. You can even start it off as a joke, playing the Venture-Captain: "Hi, I'm Ambrus Valsin and as a Rogue Sorcerer I love adding sneak attack dice to each of my Scorching Rays!"
Players who invest in their character's mechanics are actually quite eager to brag.
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Well, yes.
Because any player that attacks me gets bounced from my table and possibly removed from the campaign.
I personally *welcome* the chance for full melee attacks from the characters playing in the scenario I am running.
Melee doesn't get a chance to shine very often, and being able to have them pull it off without a lot of shenanigans brings a warmth to my heart.
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Developer
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Well, yes.Because any player that attacks me gets bounced from my table and possibly removed from the campaign.
I personally *welcome* the chance for full melee attacks from the characters playing in the scenario I am running.
Melee doesn't get a chance to shine very often, and being able to have them pull it off without a lot of shenanigans brings a warmth to my heart.
Someday I hope to play at your table!
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Melee doesn't get a chance to shine very often, and being able to have them pull it off without a lot of shenanigans brings a warmth to my heart.
well, it doesn't work without shennanigans, yet people are surprised melee brings shenannigans to do the same thing guy with bow does by.. stand here with bow.
I ask before the briefing, "Is there anything unusual I need to know about?"This is probably the single best way I've seen and found myself, to help alleviate that initial, "Wha!?" moment when a player pulls something outta their botuckus...
But I like it when my character surprises everyone by revealing a hidden ability...
But I like it when my character surprises everyone by revealing a hidden ability...I ask before the briefing, "Is there anything unusual I need to know about?"This is probably the single best way I've seen and found myself, to help alleviate that initial, "Wha!?" moment when a player pulls something outta their botuckus...
Getting them to write it down lets the gm know but lets them keep it a secret from the party
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Weird side note as advice for the players who bring weird characters to the table. Bring a cheat sheet, especially for cons. I have a monk, spiderman, who tries in almost every scenario to deal with it non-lethally. Very quickly I noticed that him punching and doing non lethal had some major faults. Well my CMB and CMD were naturally pretty high so I figured I would build a grappling build. So i did and I'd like to think I did it well and with some unique tricks. But when you roll a two and grapple the elder earth elemental people give you weird looks. So i made a sheet that explains how, from where, and why i do the things I do. After having a GM say, "hey I dont think you can use this thing the way you do", both me and my VC agree i can, I decided that I would also pull up a sheet that had that stripped from it as personally rather than fight on why i'm right id rather just use the lower and talk afterword.
Long story short, know your s%@$, if you struggle with things like that, write out your s!##. It's a major help and when you've done your research your less likely to get wrongly accused of cheating.
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" both me and my VC agree i can"
I don't think that matters. I've seen players claim venture critters approved some blatantly not kosher stuff. Table variation is a thing.
Typed out a long post and decided this isn't the thread for that rant. I think it goes both ways on table variation. I know a lot of pfs gm's that anything that could even potentially be a grey area is banned. I've had gm's tell me things that were 100% not in the rules. But I have also missed a word or line in a description and had an ability do an entire different thing. Regardless I think the only way a GM can manage the millions of potential build is for players to know what they are playing and if they don't to write it down.
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that 8 con ended up meaning he was disintegrated in the session.
Well, that's one way to solve the problem...
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both me and my VC agree i can
I cringe when someone says this, especially when I was the VO. We are not infallible and may have made the decision to keep a table rolling. I’ve had players who don’t know I am a VO try to over-rule a ruling I have made at the table because their VO does it [this] way so it must be right.
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Well perhaps I think a little more highly of my VC but I have never had a ruling from him I disagreed with. Perhaps I'm in the minority but my issues at cons have been things like. "No combat maneuvers arnt an attack roll "No CLW doesn't work for summoners, you have to use restore eidolon" "using mind control spells is an evil action"
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When in doubt, make a table ruling now and look it up later.
As a long time Duplicate Bridge Tournament Director I like this advice. :-)
From the Laws of Duplicate Bridge: "If the Director is unable to determine the facts to his satisfaction, he makes a ruling that will permit play to continue".
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I'm one of those that doesn't usually "address it later" if I spot something problematic in a game, especially at cons when I'm probably running off to get food while writing out Chronicles. I'll ask when it comes up.
However, I've softened on my original stance - it's not realistic for me to enforce rules minutia in a time-limited con slot. It's my job to run an excellent game - I need to know my five(-ish) encounters back to front, and that's more than enough for my remaining grey cells to retain. If everyone is having fun and no one is stealing the show, then someone being off +2 here or there is down in the noise of circumstance bonuses - it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Poorly weighted dice cause more campaign issues than this level of error.
Now, if they're attacking six times with (level+25) on each attack and doing d6+40 damage per hit, and killing everything before anyone else can react, we'll talk - but I'd do that even if their character was totally legal.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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But I like it when my character surprises everyone by revealing a hidden ability...Except when the player doesn’t understand how that hidden ability really works and can not explain it or the source rules. Unfortunately it happens waaay more often than not.
The problem is that there are a ton of goofy rules minutia that no one cares about because only that one person would ever think of doing it or the ability is used in a way that it was never intended to so I can see it happening a lot. Hell my one character has about a dozen weird rules interactions. My favorite is the fact that the game never really expects you to attack other willing players so its not clear how that works.
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I have a character that has a *religious obligation* to whack people that are being foolish with her quarterstaff.
I inform the table of that every time she plays, and note it's not even non-lethal damage, but a gentle knocking of the noggin, and she even has to do it to herself if she's being foolish.
That tends to shut down any complaints about the character.
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I have a character that has a *religious obligation* to whack people that are being foolish with her quarterstaff.
She even does it when someone is just giving advice*.
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On potential crazy builds, I follow the example of a couple of our local VOs. I ask before the briefing, "Is there anything unusual I need to know about?" This can cover anything from a druid with monk levels who turns into a bat and starts flurrying to a half-orc paladin using a feat to ride a triceratops to a sorceror using bloodline powers to hit undead with mind affecting powers to someone doing mounted charges while riding a wasp. This gives me the chance to go over any applicable rules with the player ahead of time. This also makes it less likely that I will surprise the player with an unexpected ruling.^^^This...
This is probably the single best way I've seen and found myself, to help alleviate that initial, "Wha!?" moment when a player pulls something outta their botuckus...
That still doesn't stop those moments when an AC reaches 40+ at less than level 9 (or 30+ at less than level 5) or ridiculous Witch DCs.
Want a "Wha!?" moment?
I'm playing the front liner's familiar. He can carry the extra 15 lbs.
I grant +4 flanking bonus to ally's adjacent to me, remove concealment from foes when I hit them, and only attack once a round. I almost can't fail to be physically on a foe that I'm attacking. Granted my 1d3 bite attack does 20 to 40 average damage, and usually results in a total of -6 to hit any of my allies and -9 to hit me with no save. I also know 17 languages, but can only speak 4 usually.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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both me and my VC agree i canI cringe when someone says this, especially when I was the VO. We are not infallible and may have made the decision to keep a table rolling. I’ve had players who don’t know I am a VO try to over-rule a ruling I have made at the table because their VO does it [this] way so it must be right.
I know the problem, we are sometimes forced to do a somewhat regional ruling (all the VC which just happen to be the most experienced GMs and with system mastery.. and the ability to find answers) that can be somewhat relied upon regionally. Of course, I would never say that that is foolproof or that someone else is wrong.
Unless things are not in that nasty grey area, there are ways to be absolutely 100 % wrong.
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Developer
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I'll be honest, as a player, many times I find myself coming up with weird and unexpected ideas about my own character's abilities at the table. Oftentimes, I use the discord rules chat as a spontaneous second opinion (and to make sure I didn't misread something). Sometimes I find a neat gem that helps us get through a niche situation. Other times I just stumble on something people have done for years. Either way, most GMs can tell I just thought of the idea that night and kind of feel the same sort of thought process that lead me to the idea, so it's not a big problem. Oftentimes the GM is excited to award the creative solution, but will add in "now keep in mind this might not work again."