Are Firearms viable in Pathfinder Society?


Pathfinder Society

201 to 222 of 222 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Honestly Ive been in the situations in Scenarios where exactly what you say doesnt happen happens and often. Average situation where a ranged character is involved is probably going to start 100-150feet away. If you are actively trying to be in the front then sure you can start closer.

In another game I was in a situation where a flying enemy attacked from about 300 feet away, glad I had a Composite Longbow to shoot it down.

Not every enemy has Step-Up and other counters but when they do a 5foot step has probably become a massive crutch in your tactics.

Now the argument is and has always been between me(fix the flaws) and "you" (there are no flaws).
-------------
I havent used it in a long time but my old Zen Archer starts out with Flurry of Blows, Precise Shot, and a 110+ foot range. That easily outdamaged a malfunctioning and short ranged Pistol or Musket then.

Other characters can get do similar things like Rapid Shot+ManyShot+Haste to just fire off a volley of arrows. If they had Dexterity-to-damage with their bows then it would be easy to make Glass Cannons.

I moved onto them because the way to fix Gunslingers in Pathfinder Society is to admit they are made to be broken and not in the "i am invincible" way. Argue as much as you want but you just ignoring Misfire as a BIG flaw just continues the argument.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ChaosTicket wrote:


Now the argument is and has always been between me(fix the flaws) and "you" (there are no flaws).

No. You do not get to misrepresent everyone's position like that.

You- I want to alter the entire structure of organized play to allow all options because I have read the manual, crunched the numbers and gunslingers can't possibly work.

Everyone else: Gunslingers work just fine. Their flaws rarely come up and aren't nearly enough to stop them from being killing machines, much less drop them below any sane definition of viable.

When people talk to you, we're using our definition of viable, not yours. You have to understand that you don't get to set how everyone else means words. Especially in the context here, viable means good enough to get through a PFS scenario.

The options are not "I'm a win button every single time" and "trashpanda". You do not need to be the optimal option for every single situation in the game to be viable. You are traveling with a party for a reason. If you are for some reason disadvantaged or, Desna forbid, completely negated, the other players at the table may have skills and abilities to overcome the obstacle or to help you overcome it.

Every option in the game has advantages and disadvantages. That does not make them broken, it makes them interesting. The gunslingers flaws are few, infrequent, and fixable (reliable gun, spider, reasonable grit pool). They barely impact the devastation they bring, much less drop them to not viable.

Quote:
I havent used it in a long time but my old Zen Archer starts out with Flurry of Blows, Precise Shot, and a 110+ foot range. That easily outdamaged a malfunctioning and short ranged Pistol or Musket then.

Its 9 am so i'm not sure if i've had too much or not nearly enough to drink to crunch the math on that, but either way its a false dichotomy. The options are not "Zen archer damage" and "not viable". Yes, you may find a flying opponent 100 feet overhead. In which case you are merely a full attacking martial that has to hit their real AC and has monostated their hit and damage both into dex, and will probably drop a mook per round or take out half the big bads hitpoints. Thats really not a bad thing.

Meanwhile, the greatsword slinging fighter has to pop a 750 gp potion of fly, or hope that the wizard prepared to do their job today. So is melee somehow not viable because it sometimes isn't optimal?

Quote:
I moved onto them because the way to fix Gunslingers in Pathfinder Society is to admit they are made to be broken and not in the "i am invincible" way. Argue as much as you want but you just ignoring Misfire as a BIG flaw just continues the argument.

Please try to realize that to everyone here you are just another Pic with a name on the internet. Random person on the internet is trying to tell me that gunslingers are terrible, when every DM here has seen with their own eyes that they wreck combat encounters. This evaluation was made with a gross misunderstanding of how fast grit comes back (every time you kill someone. Which is a LOT)

You are asking people to believe your hypothetical speculations rather than their own eyes. Furthermore, you are asking that your hypothetical speculations be used as the basis for drastic rule changes for organized play. Do you really expect everyone here to just accept that you're that much better at this than everyone else on your say so?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, France—Paris

Rule of thumb : Adaptativeness works both ways, not only one-sided traffic. Should the majority adapt to one player ? Nonsensical at best.


Big woof. Okay long message, but what does any of that have to do with anything Ive talked about? You keep saying nothing I say matters when in my personal experience it does. Youre quite simply yelling at me to believe you and not the experiences Ive been through or the evidence I have witnessed first hand. Your basis? You have difference experiences, but your not helping youre just saying "BigNorseWolf=Right, ChaosTicket=Wrong"

Do Pistols have anywhere near the range of a Composite Longbow? Answer is no. Pistols have 20 Touch AC Range and 100 maximum range. That is within the First of Ten increments of a Composite Longbow. So the fact is the a Composite Longbow has longer range.

Can Early Firearms make multiple Attacks per turn? Answer is Yes with complications. For Pistols the Rapid Reload feat, ALchemical Cartridges, and Greater Reliable enchantment make reduce Misfire to 0, and reloading becomes a free action so long as you have one free hand or some extra ability like a prehensile tail. The Musket Master allows the same with Muskets.

Now I keep saying this. The Gunslinger and Early Firearms are not appealing to ME because they so complicated. You dont start with a Greater Reliable Pistol so I would much rather start with a Composite Longbow because it is longer range, fires every turn(possibly multiple times even at level 1), and never Misfires.

Okay you dont think about fixing problems ingame. I do, otherwise I look for alternatives, leading back to many of the posts I have maid in this thread. If you dont think about things like Misfire then you dont, but I would appreciate when you dont keep insulting me every time I say anything about them.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Big woof. Okay long message, but what does any of that have to do with anything Ive talked about? You keep saying nothing I say matters when in my personal experience it does. Youre quite simply yelling at me to believe you and not the experiences Ive been through or the evidence I have witnessed first hand.

Have you played a gunslinger to 12th in PFS?


ChaosTicket wrote:

You have difference experiences, but your not helping youre just saying "BigNorseWolf=Right, ChaosTicker=Wrong"

I’m not saying you’re always wrong but you did spell your name wrong...


I should just stop posting. Every response I receive is just another argument that my opinion based on facts, experience, and theory is just wrong. I close my eyes and shake my head often when I see someone ignore the range difference between a Pistols & Musket and a Composite Longbow or more specifically when I ever bring it up.

Im going to think about how I can snipe people at 200+feet with Longbows and long range Spells.

Why? Because THINK OF THE POTENTIAL.

How about this format.

IN MY EXPERIENCE: the fact that a Composite Longbow has more range than any early Firearms means I attack every turn as soon as I am able and as many times as possible. I keep firing until the target is dead or I withdrawn to a safer location. Feats or more likely Spells enhance my tactical options such as Flying away from a melee enemy.

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Every response I receive is just another argument that my opinion based on facts, experience, and theory is just wrong.

The thing is it about a dozen people telling you there experience contradicts you opinion, not just one.

Edit: theres also nothing stopping a gunslinger from using a bow other than a s##!ty strength score for the rare scenario you are 100ft+ from your target


Okay so in your experience Firearms are the perfect weapon with absolutely no flaws whatsoever and I am wrong about that?

WHAT are you arguing about? Seriously unless you posts have something about "range", "misfire", "free action", "full attack" then youre just filling up space.

In personal preference wow its obvious I like the Composite Longbow.
If I could I would try to get a Reliable Rifle.

2/5

No, but neither are bows, crossbows, daggers, swords, spells or anything else. All of them have flaws, and early firearms flaws aren't particularly worse then anything else ffor downsides, and are particularly better than some for upsides.

2/5

Also just to add my 2cp if advanced firearms ever become readily available I'm quitting the campaign.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

4 people marked this as a favorite.
ChaosTicket wrote:

Im going to think about how I can snipe people at 200+feet with Longbows and long range Spells.

Why? Because THINK OF THE POTENTIAL.

A lot of PFS scenarios use the flip maps or other maps of roughly the same size. Having drawn many by hand, I can tell you most are not 40 squares on either side. To be 200+ feet away, you need to be flying, off the map, or shooting diagonally across most of it.

That doesn’t happen very often in PFS scenarios. Look at the maps and count the squares. There are a few that allow for it, but most do not.

You would very rarely see that potential realized.

The best snipers in PFS bring their own ability to block line of sight so they can hide and snipe.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The reason people are ignoring the range difference is because it so rarely matters in PFS. Maybe 5-10% of scenarios have a single combat where you start more than 100 feet from the enemies.

And yes, composite longbows and fireballs can be fired in the first round of those fights, while everyone else spends a round or two moving closer. That includes gunslingers. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't have a composite longbow isn't viable in PFS. It just means that sometimes you have to move closer before you start fighting, whether you're a gunslinger, barbarian, or anyone else without a long range attack as your main weapon.

Or you could pick up a longbow as your backup weapon, like I did with my melee barbarian at low levels before he started spending the cash to carry potions of Fly at all times.

But for the other 90% of combats, you don't have that problem.


Scott Mcgroarty wrote:
No, but neither are bows, crossbows, daggers, swords, spells or anything else. All of them have flaws, and early firearms flaws aren't particularly worse then anything else ffor downsides, and are particularly better than some for upsides.

Okay is that a constructive response? I can calm down.

Yes that is true. There is no perfect anything. I like something I can use immediately and make better. a Composite Longbow is far from flawless, but it doesnt require levels in the Gunslinger to use it.

Early Firearms intentionally have flaws that cannot be fixed. Normally I would think about upgrading to Advanced firearms, but that isnt allowed in the Society Campaign. In that case I just dont use Early Firearms now.

The real problem is course find ways to exploit what you have. Have a hard time getting full use out of your long range weapons? Fly away, use vanish/Invisibility/Greater Invisibility, teleportation of some kind.

Now if I could see a Pistol working in conjunction with Hold Person, or Fireball, that would be something.

Grand Lodge 3/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Florida—Kissimmee aka blackaeon

Have had 0 problems with the one player/character at the table for one of my two PFS groups who took some Gunslinger levels, but considering one of those two groups is a party comprised solely of monks, your mileage may vary considerably, I guess.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ChaosTicket wrote:
Scott Mcgroarty wrote:
No, but neither are bows, crossbows, daggers, swords, spells or anything else. All of them have flaws, and early firearms flaws aren't particularly worse then anything else ffor downsides, and are particularly better than some for upsides.

Okay is that a constructive response? I can calm down.

Yes that is true. There is no perfect anything. I like something I can use immediately and make better. a Composite Longbow is far from flawless, but it doesnt require levels in the Gunslinger to use it.

Early Firearms intentionally have flaws that cannot be fixed. Normally I would think about upgrading to Advanced firearms, but that isnt allowed in the Society Campaign. In that case I just dont use Early Firearms now.

The real problem is course find ways to exploit what you have. Have a hard time getting full use out of your long range weapons? Fly away, use vanish/Invisibility/Greater Invisibility, teleportation of some kind.

Now if I could see a Pistol working in conjunction with Hold Person, or Fireball, that would be something.

How about answering the question posted earlier in the thread.

Have you played a gunslinger to 12th level in PFS play?

I have played up to 11.25 (Been waiting for a chance to shoot Torch).
I have about.. five characters who are gunslingers. Not all of them have the '5th level' perk.

A lot of the folks that responded to your posts have said THEIR experiences and your comments don't match what we've seen.

Your posts about the content of the class reflect largely from the books but repeatedly we've posted about our experience in play.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

ChaosTicket wrote:

Big woof. Okay long message, but what does any of that have to do with anything Ive talked about?

Agreement with you is not the measure of relevance.

What it "has to do" with what you are saying is taking it apart, from the alleged facts to the incredibly poor logic you are insisting on. You would know that if you considered what I said instead of dismissing it as random gobbleygook. But you didn't. case in point...

Quote:
Okay so in your experience Firearms are the perfect weapon with absolutely no flaws whatsoever and I am wrong about that?

This strawman. No one is saying this. People have corrected you on this 8 times now. When the problems with your arguments are pointed out, you fall back to this. Again. And again. And again. It is disrespectful to other posters to misconstrue their statements this badly this often rather than deal with the substance of what you're being told.

-Range is rarely an issue in PFS, which everyone here knows because they've played a lot of PFS.

-Touch attacks are incredibly powerful, touch AC DROPS as you level, making it very easy to do consistent damage and more damage than a bowman (who will miss more shots from targeting real ac)

-misfires happen but you have deeds to deal with it. You don't run out of grit as fast as you misfire (which is not something you can calculate or reason out, but it is something you can see at the table from either side of the screen)

-When you consider the advantages and disadvantages guns come out far ahead for most PFS scenarios. The fact that guns have disadvantages does not preclude them from being better on the whole, or make them unviable.

- a weapon not being perfect is deliberate game design. It is a feature, not a flaw. If any weapon was the best weapon all the time it would be the only weapon anyone uses, and that would be a bad thing.

- you do not need to be the engine of destruction in every single fight. In fact, it would probably be best if the other people at the table got to do something every once in a while.

Quote:
Why? Because THINK OF THE POTENTIAL.

That is the problem. you ONLY think of the potential. You do not think of the actual. You think about your gun misfiring 12 times without ever getting a kill because it MIGHT happen. You might get a situation where your enemies are more than 100 feet away and it MIGHT happen... so you respond as if it will happen every single time.

On the other hand you think you'll be able to have an enemy dead to rights in 600 feet of open field so you can mow them down with your longbow despite the fact that this rarely to never happens. Big bads that have gone through the trouble of constructing or taking over a large underground tunnel complex for their safety seem oddly reluctant to put on a bullseye t shirt and walk out into an X on the ground in a shooting gallery.

Sure, the POTENTIAL is great but the actual is nearly non existant. And thats what you asked in your thread title. Given the ACTUAL set ups in pathfinder society (which you cannot possibly reason your way to with no information) are pistols viable? WHich leads us to...

Quote:
Okay you dont think about fixing problems in game

This is objectively wrong. Why do you think you can conjecture your way to figuring out how I think and how I play? Missed by a mile.

I do think about fixing problems in game. Most of my characters do nothing but fix specific problems (how do i tank in a game crawling with melee), or how to make an underutilized option viable to powerful (like weaponizing wild empathy...), or do concentrate on utility buffs to specifically to fix problems (like how to get melee to the fight and swinging)

If you mean out of game? You are REALLY leveling that accusation against the wrong person. I thought the prep worked required was too much, and pushed to get the monsters put into the scenarios. I didn't think they were rewarding game day dms, and pushed for something that did that. I thought their game finder was terrible, I made my own.

You have absolutely no basis for this accusation when your dual wielding pistelero's problems of flying opponents could be solved with adventuring 101 basics of a potion of fly or a backup longbow, but you didn't think of that, so you need to try to ask for the game to be drastically altered with unlimited gold and modern firearms.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

Hey Chaos Ticket —

I think that what you want to do here is play the character you want to play. You can build a gunslinger and try him or her out, and see what happens. Or you can decide that you’re uncomfortable with the chance of misfires, and go Zen Archer Monk.

As a GM I will agree that in PFS it is rare to have large maps. That’s part of the reason that clouded vision oracles are viable in PFS... Because most combat is close. Flip mats are relatively small, dungeon rooms are small, etc. There are the occasional exceptions, but that is what makes play challenging. Facing those exceptions designed to weaken your character and triumphing anyway.

Now, you were saying earlier that you were interested in hearing about people’s multi-class builds. Would it be helpful if we got the S.W.A.T. Team talking about how they built their S.W.A.T. Team? Not just the individual characters, but what they did to build the team as a whole? So long as they’re not all dialoguing in character and distracting the actual firearms discussion?

Because I am also curious about multi-class gunslinger builds, and love seeing what people do with teamwork feats and the like. Many of my characters have been in paired builds with my boyfriend, Bret, so we try to make sure that we can bring different things to the table when we both play.

Hmm

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵

"Guns are a tool. If you let a tool use you, then you are a tool." says SWAT's K9 Specialist.

"My team has handled every situation they've been in, and we all use guns. Some use the guns better than others. We have had our share of bad luck, but we've also had a lot of good luck. We don't let perps escape."


Its personal choice but I do not value any single option and as the Gunslinger is basically "the gun guy" but without full access to Advanced Firearms at any point I dont feel its worth putting any levels.

I value brute force when its needed but I would rather find alternative means like turning everyone invisible.

Go ahead with multiclass brainstorms.

Dark Archive 4/5

> Go ahead with multiclass brainstorms.

More Anecdotal evidence but this one is not a full Gunslinger but has the feat investment to get it to work while taking class levels of bard to get a good generalist.

Build: Support bard with ranged touch damage output.
Character: Alexander Killik - Ifrit Andoran Military
Classes: Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1, Bard (Arcane Duelist) X (currently 7)
Guns: lucky +1 pepperbox, +1 peperbox, double barreled rifle, single barrel rifle (also about 3 cheap pull out pistols as backup)
Feats: PBS, Precise, Rapid shot, Quick Draw
Argument for a dip: Bard is not an easy martial build without alot of focus - this gives a way to do solid damage at mid levels of the game and still do combat buffs. Has done massive crits and failed misfires across his adventuring but performs well in the majority of scenarios.

Using this build a bard can contribute with bardic performance still up using ranged touch attacks. Grit means solid damage (CHA to all attacks for 1 round for 1 grit) and lucky fixes at least one mess up per scenario.

Without the gunslinger level he would have to invest in more damage output on a bow and with base line str it would be a lot more sporadic along with a lot less hits...


I cast resurrection on this topic!!
With all the talk of adding dex to damage anyone try a gun chemist and add int to damage? Take two traits ( Illuminator (religion) +2 to diplomacy and it is a class skill, and Clever Word Play (social) trait that can make diplomacy based off intelligence) and you can be a gunslinger with a high bonus to hit, plus to damage, battlefield control, hand out heal potions before battle, know everything, disable device, and be the face of the group. Add the tumor familiar discovery for a thrush and you can even add scouting, better Perception, and more diplomacy to your list of “fun things to do when not blasting stuff with explosive bullets”.

Seems like a solid character. Anyone ever tried it, because it seems like a ton of fun!

201 to 222 of 222 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Are Firearms viable in Pathfinder Society? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.