Are Firearms viable in Pathfinder Society?


Pathfinder Society

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The guy wants ChaosTicket Society. Let him make his infinite wealth, content floodgates open, variable storyline masterpiece with his advanced guns, crafting feats and what-not. I'm sure his campaign will be fantastic (I know I would love to play in it) when run to his specifications.

I agree with the others, the thread has nothing to do with PFS, please move it somewhere else.


Ha I love that.

This thread already met its primary objective. I got the FAQ cnfirming my friends plans for his Gunslinger was allowed in Pathfinder Society. so I passed it on. That was Page 1.

Then rather then leave it die I went onto thinking of creative builds to actually make a better character that would fit into a more successful build with versatile skills rather than just "pew pew" things with a lot of flaws. That was page 2.

After than the Elephant in the Room was just the driving question of how to make Firearms general purpose rather than a Hand Cannon that jams. That was brought up mainly because everyone kept saying "ive never been in a situation where Firearms are bad." That was Page 3.

I wonder where Page 4 will go?

3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

Jared Thaler wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Its why I've always found them boring because doing damage isn't hard to do.

See, that is what happens when people only take gunslinger up through 5th level. All the really fun gonzo stuff gunslingers can do kicks in at level 7. They are the archetypal swing from the rafters action adventure class.

Want to shoot the other guys weapon out of his hand at range with out a whole bunch of silly feats and with only a single touch attack? Gunslinger. Want to cast confusion on the bad guy? (No save, *and* does damage to boot?) Gunslinger. Rogue lost his flanking buddy? Render their target flat footed. No roll, no save. Want to chew through DR like it was paper? Gunslinger.

I mean that's less gonzo and more what you would expect. Gonzo has a specific connotation to me like the ability to spontaneously grow and lose limbs on a daily basis because of your dieties will????


This has been more focused on Firearms than the Gunslinger itself.

Grit is a very finite resource, often in the single digits. Unlike other class based resources it doesnt increase with level. Its based on only one statistic naturally, Wisdom. That makes it a secondary statistic to focus on, but even then you never enough to really let loose with Deeds.

Remember about the Inspiring Blade? That can have a 25%(or maybe better) crit rate with Rapiers and greatly improve the Grit/Panache pool, maybe to double Digits.

Unless youre in an open game where you can do Dares, its fairly hard to regain Grit. Critical Hits are the only steady way and Firearms arent exactly good with Natural 20 Critical Threat. None of the Deed abilities are useless but when its that hard to regain Grit the quality of what you use them for is important.

Its harder to justify losing out on all the abilities you can gain for one singular ability you rarely can use.

Several Deeds are versions of Feats. Clustered Shots, Ranged Disarm.

Grit and Deeds are cool but really inefficient.

Compare that to say casting Vanish, Fly, Polymorph("hmm, what can I do with 4 arms?"), or just a huge amount of extra skill points.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville

ChaosTicket wrote:

This has been more focused on Firearms than the Gunslinger itself.

Grit is a very finite resource, often in the single digits. Unlike other class based resources it doesnt increase with level. Its based on only one statistic naturally, Wisdom. That makes it a secondary statistic to focus on, but even then you never enough to really let loose with Deeds.

Unless youre in an open game where you can do Dares, its fairly hard to regain Grit. Critical Hits are the only steady way and Firearms arent exactly good with Natural 20 Critical Threat. None of the Deed abilities are useless but when its that hard to regain Grit the quality of what you use them for is important.

Its harder to justify losing out on all the abilities you can gain for one singular ability you rarely can use.

Several Deeds are versions of Feats. Clustered Shots, Ranged Disarm.

Compare that to say casting Vanish, Fly, Polymorph("hmm, what can I do with 4 arms?"), or just a huge amount of extra skill points.

You left out that KILLING something regaining grit.

Speaking not just for myself but the other Jacksonville Fl gunslingers I don't see a lot of grit loss/deficit being an issue. Yes, I've run out of grit on my PCs, but usually a gunshot at the right moment fixes it more than a crit does.


Killing something #1 In Combat, #2 that isnt helpless, and #3 is actually a challenge close to your level.

If you use 2 Grit points on a single enemy or not gaining back from Grit spent means youre wasting it.

Talking About Grit profiting here. It can be that absurd.

Compare that to Ranged Disarm that costs a feat slot but can be used unlimited times. At least then youre doing something different from just doing damage.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville

ChaosTicket wrote:

Killing something #1 In Combat, #2 that isnt helpless, and #3 is actually a challenge close to your level.

If you use 2 Grit points on a single enemy or not gaining back from Grit spent means youre wasting it.

Talking About Grit profiting here. It can be that absurd.

Compare that to Ranged Disarm that costs a feat slot but can be used unlimited times. At least then youre doing something different from just doing damage.

And pray tell, how often do you spend 2 grit in one action?

THe only time any of my gunslingers have ever used more than a grit point for a single attack was to hit a guy 4 range increments out.


Not in one action, on one enemy.

Grit points are too few and hard to acquire to use them like more plentiful class resources. Barbarians/Bloodragers can have 60=70 Rage rounds, Arcanists/Magi have 20-30+ Arcane points, and so on with dozens of points you usually only have to expend once per turn. That and they are less likely to be replaceable by feats.

Although of course you can pick Extra Grit feat and enchant your weapon(s) to have Lucky to increase your maximum Grit pool to at least double digits.

My suggestion is to either not rely on Grit or try Multiclassing as the Inspired Blade. With 3 statistics giving you Grit/Panache Points its a huge leap especially with Headbands boosting multiple stats.

I looked up the rules for Called Shots, and they are not class restricted.
With that and what I already researched I have the feeling many of the Gunslinger Deeds have Feat counterparts and course spell replacements.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I have never built a gunslinger.

Though... I keep hearing stories of the EPIC group of Minnesota cop characters (S.W.A.T.) that were all built with one level of gunslinger and then any other class to develop their cop persona. They keep promising that I’ll get to GM for them someday, then dashing my poor little GM hopes...

Yes, I know that I am asking for it. Bring me S.W.A.T.!

”Abadar, she knows not for what she asks.” Rikki shakes her head...

And that is at least one level of gunslinger. Rikki is MM3, UC Monk1, Hunter 3.

Oh, and I think we hold the record for most misfires in a combat (11), and in a scenario(13)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Thomas Graham wrote:

And pray tell, how often do you spend 2 grit in one action?

THe only time any of my gunslingers have ever used more than a grit point for a single attack was to hit a guy 4 range increments out.

There was this centipede... Over 30 feet long it was.... and I needed to kill it then, or three of us were dead. It happened to be 50’ away from me... good thing I had 4 grit.

Extra grit feat is a thing. Retrained it later in my career, but by then I was much wiser. And Vera was less temprememtal, not that she ever really was, mind you, though I still don’t know why she saved Torch by misfiring...

4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis

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Officer Rikki Gunderson wrote:
Oh, and I think we hold the record for most misfires in a combat (11), and in a scenario(13)

That is because I’ve never played a gunslinger. ;)

Dark Archive 4/5

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I'm not sure how S.W.A.T. could manage that many misfires in a combat and maintain a PG-13 rating. **Imagines every action cop movie ever**

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

It's not really S.W.A.T. (at least to me) until one of you has hit your own team with burst of radiance or something similar. (Or an actual bang grenade, if any of you went to Numeria in your careers.)

5/5 5/55/55/5

Davor Firetusk wrote:
I'm not sure how S.W.A.T. could manage that many misfires in a combat and maintain a PG-13 rating. **Imagines every action cop movie ever**

Storm trooper helmets equipmed with a profanity filter?


Okay mechanically I dont like Early Firearms or Grit/Deeds.

It reads like people have fun.

After reaching level 5 as a Gunslinger combining that with any magic class could easily be fun by combining things to make Magi-tech like using spells and saying they are [blank] grenades.

Its disappointing that the Gunslinger doesnt have more technological abilities like a Gadget hero by default and has to go to other classes to get them.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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ChaosTicket wrote:


Its disappointing that the Gunslinger doesnt have more technological abilities like a Gadget hero by default and has to go to other classes to get them.

try starfinder society for that sort of thing. The genre supports it better.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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This thread is still going? Phew.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...it is the Thread That Never Ends....


Good, I like to hear ideas about Firearms, the Gunslinger class and its archetypes, and multiclassing.

Too bad so much of that is banned in the Pathfinder Society. Swashbuckler Musketeer would be fun to try.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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conclusions reached based on a faulty premise are faulty conclusions.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Officer Rikki Gunderson wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I have never built a gunslinger.

Though... I keep hearing stories of the EPIC group of Minnesota cop characters (S.W.A.T.) that were all built with one level of gunslinger and then any other class to develop their cop persona. They keep promising that I’ll get to GM for them someday, then dashing my poor little GM hopes...

Yes, I know that I am asking for it. Bring me S.W.A.T.!

”Abadar, she knows not for what she asks.” Rikki shakes her head...

And that is at least one level of gunslinger. Rikki is MM3, UC Monk1, Hunter 3.

Oh, and I think we hold the record for most misfires in a combat (11), and in a scenario(13)

Hey Rikki! Is S.W.A.T. still level 6, as indicated by your profile? If so, I think we could have fun in #9-09 Beyond the Halflight Path... You’d be cops, in Kaer Maga, on the case of something weird. I really think that would be perfect for all of you.

Hmm

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Aww man, I wanna see that.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Davor Firetusk wrote:
I'm not sure how S.W.A.T. could manage that many misfires in a combat and maintain a PG-13 rating. **Imagines every action cop movie ever**

Pretty sure we didn't. Good thing this was at a private game.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:


Hey Rikki! Is S.W.A.T. still level 6, as indicated by your profile? If so, I think we could have fun in #9-09 Beyond the Halflight Path... You’d be cops, in Kaer Maga, on the case of something weird. I really think that would be perfect for all of you.

Hmm

We've hit level 7 for the most part. Which still would work.

And we've suggested this would be a good choice of scenario

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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chews on a mithral pepperbox rifle...

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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...am I the only one that checked if the dog had a level in gunslinger?

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No.


Um radical thought here, but cant Eidolons grow extra arms and learn weapon proficiencies?

Whats to stop you from making an Chained Summoner from making a Dog/Wolf using a musket?

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Pride.

Plus (new) APG Summoners are banned.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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TOZ wrote:
...am I the only one that checked if the dog had a level in gunslinger?

Don't need guns... just chew tows. Perps make good chew toys.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Officer Rikki Gunderson wrote:

We've hit level 7 for the most part. Which still would work.

And we've suggested this would be a good choice of scenario.

Then let us make this happen!

Hmm


Um flagging this myself. This PAGE is should be in the Role-play area.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Officer Rikki Gunderson wrote:

We've hit level 7 for the most part. Which still would work.

And we've suggested this would be a good choice of scenario.

Then let us make this happen!

Hmm

"As the team's legal expert, I have put into motion the paperwork that would absolve all Pathfinders of any wrongdoing in this matter. Upon completion of the requisite paperwork, such an occasion will be a Go."

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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ChaosTicket wrote:
This PAGE is should be in the Role-play area.

Welcome to the forums, where the usernames are made up and the posts don't matter!

Liberty's Edge

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ChaosTicket wrote:
Um flagging this myself. This PAGE is should be in the Role-play area.

But why, Nathaniel?

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Detective Dixon Hill wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Officer Rikki Gunderson wrote:

We've hit level 7 for the most part. Which still would work.

And we've suggested this would be a good choice of scenario.

Then let us make this happen!

Hmm

"As the team's legal expert, I have put into motion the paperwork that would absolve all Pathfinders of any wrongdoing in this matter. Upon completion of the requisite paperwork, such an occasion will be a Go."

I approve of this statement.


Oh no youve found my weakness, SUPERFLUOUS AND IRRELEVANT DIALOGUE, noooooo!

Liberty's Edge 1/5 *

Ma'am, I would advise you have care when bringing in those S.W.A.T. boys, in my experience they tend to be the most extreme department in any precinct.

They're rather functional at blunt force, but lack the investigative skills and finesse a standard detective will have.


Have you tried using the best weapon ever?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Deputy Wayne Livingston wrote:

Ma'am, I would advise you have care when bringing in those S.W.A.T. boys, in my experience they tend to be the most extreme department in any precinct.

They're rather functional at blunt force, but lack the investigative skills and finesse a standard detective will have.

"I wouldn't be too hasty with those accusations. That Thursty fellow made a similar accusation before we were sent into Alabastrine. We took care of business in a efficient and upstanding manner."

Liberty's Edge 1/5 *

"Well shoot sir, I'm certainly willing to be corrected. I have'ta really base it off my personal experience at the moment, and those experiences have been with other S.W.A.T. fellers that are a lil too much gun in their gungho, if you catch my meaning." He adjusts his at and gives Hill a knowing wink.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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Detective Dixon Hill wrote:


"I wouldn't be too hasty with those accusations. That Thursty fellow made a similar accusation before we were sent into Alabastrine. We took care of business in a efficient and upstanding manner."

create water, create water, create water, create water...

Lantern Lodge Customer Service Manager

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The thread is staying in PFS. The premise is specifically asking about PFS and Gunslingers. If you want to start a new conversation that doesn't involve PFS because thats where you feel the thread is going, feel free to find the appropriate forum and post a link in here to the new discussion.

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With regards to the issue of discussing theoretical or philosophical issues with running a global organized play campaign, please find a way to discuss that in a productive and respectful manner.

Lastly, if you feel that someone is not posting in good faith or has crossed a line with our community guidelines, flag it and move on. Don't keep posting replies, especially ones that amount to bickering or personal jabs.


Well this has been interesting. You all have different throughts, some not even close to the topic I started. Disappointing how few were actually constructive.

I cant see the Gunslinger as worth the trouble when its restricted to Early Firearms. They can be powerful and accurate but only in specific circumstances. There are alternatives with various benefits. I think I would descibre PFS Gunslinger as "lethal joke"

Both are basically unusable without the other, which is really odd as if you know anything about guns one reason they became so popular is how little training it takes to use them.

The Bolt Ace archetype is a maybe. Its a downgrade to having a Rifle, but its at least decent. Free-action attacks with a Light Crossbow is okay when youre dexterity becomes damage. Not much after level 5, so Multiclass to a caster or perhaps ignore the Crossbow Training and pick a Slayer or maybe a Warpriest with ranged weapons?

Crossbows share a similar problem as Early FIrearms. I dont see them as useful without the Bolt Ace level 5 for Crossbow Training.

Composite longbow is far from a perfect weapon, but at least its damage increases with strength bonuses and a range of 110-1100feet is nothing to sneeze at. wont be as strong Min-Maxed Gunslinger though.

Relying on Ranged attacks solely is obviously not what anyone intended as there are so many penalties and feats required to correct some of them.

5/5 5/55/55/5

ChaosTicket wrote:
I cant see the Gunslinger as worth the trouble when its restricted to Early Firearms.

Your hypothetical evaluation crashes hard into objective fact and direct observation.

I'm sorry, but no ones hypotheticals are better information than fact. Reality (fantasy reality?) kicks in and a thing works well or it doesn't independently of how you think it should work.

Quote:
They can be powerful and accurate but only in specific circumstances.

And what you're asking is how often do PFS scenarios fit into those circumstances. The overwhelming response is 99% of the time, because encounters need to fit on a table and even mooks provide enough XP to refill your grit pool.

Quote:
Both are basically unusable without the other, which is really odd as if you know anything about guns one reason they became so popular is how little training it takes to use them.

Depends on which gun they're supposed to be representing. The price would indicate a pyrite powered wheel lock, which would make a lot of sense as an exotic weapon.

Quote:
The Bolt Ace archetype is a maybe. Its a downgrade to having a Rifle, but its at least decent. Free-action attacks with a Light Crossbow is okay when youre dexterity becomes damage. Not much after level 5, so Multiclass to a caster or perhaps ignore the Crossbow Training and pick a Slayer or maybe a Warpriest with ranged weapons?
Quote:
Relying on Ranged attacks solely is obviously not what anyone intended as there are so many penalties and feats required to correct some of them.

5 foot and shoot covers you 99% of the time. You do remember that you're part of a team, and some of them will stand in the way for you (for better or worse)

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