Are Firearms viable in Pathfinder Society?


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

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You know there is something missing here. Ah yes, what about other classes besides the Gunslinger for using firearms and crossbows?

Without Dexterity-to-damage and a n assortment of feats I question if they can work well?

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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I'm confused and may be off-base, but all your threads seem to be an exercise in pointing out or complaining about what PFS doesn't or won't let you do, and you pseudo-ignoring/bashing people who tell you as such. Am I wrong? What are you hoping to gain/prove/learn/etc from these posts? You seem to want PFS to be your own personal home campaign. I admit I haven't read every post, just skimmed, but the theme seems to be consistent.

Scarab Sages *****

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That's about the weight of it Bob.


Are you really asking the point of a brainstorming thread?

Outside the Society for a ranged character I would suggest 5 levels Gunslinger, craft a Reliable Rifle, pick Rapid Reload and other ranged feats and be done.

On a Martial class that could work fine. After that multiclass to something else. Skillmonkeys would help a lot. Spellcasters could be useful but you would probably end up lacking in Feat and/or stats necessary to cast well. Still flying with a gun could be nice.

My First Pathfinder character was basically an attempt to make Matthew Qigley using a Slayer. Shame the Society doesnt like Tom Selleck.

Now if anyone else has other suggestions Id like to see them. I enjoy looking up things like a prehensile tail for a Tiefling.

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
James Anderson wrote:
Currently the only NPC gunslingers are either the undead type that is immune to misfires, or you're playing pregens that don't have the ability. But maybe some day.

One of the scenario bosses uses a pistol. He's not very good at using it, but I won't forget the look on my players' faces when I put a Gunslinger mini down on the map.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

ChaosTicket wrote:

Anyone pointing out my concerns you are right. Im trying to find options to make early firearms practical which basically means 0 misfire, free action reloads and about 100 feet touch Ac.

Are Firearms viable in PFS? Yes

3rd level Musket master archetype using Paper Cartridges, (free) rapid reload, and Fast musket ability will have you free action reloads. Slate Spider will give you one minute per day of no misfires per spider. Distance on your Musket will make it an 80 foot touch AC. That's the closest I get off the top of my head.


James Anderson wrote:


Slate Spider will give you one minute per day of no misfires per spider. Distance on your Musket will make it an 80 foot touch AC. That's the closest I get off the top of my head.

Hmm, a spider that cleans you gun? Cool idea. The only way i know to improve the Touch AC range of Firearms is putting 3 levels in Luring Cavalier. With that you will have Touch Ac up to 40 feet with a Pistol and 80 feet with a Musket.

Grand Lodge *****

Trust me, son, you are over thinking it. Rarely did Vera and me need more than her normal 40’ range. I mean. It ain’t like she’s a little pistol. Later, when I was more skilled and had more money, did I have a Society mage give her that distance magic.

Once and a while I just needed to aim better. And, even if you are targeting regular ac, a ‘slinger ain’t no slouch st hitting, even if they ain’t one of those all quickness no strength or brains ‘slingers.

Scarab Sages ***

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Yeah, even using a bow I've never had a shot over 50' in PFS. I think the criteria for "viable" needs serious evaluation.

Grand Lodge ****

well I know that going the ‘Jose’s Wales” way works..

Booms tick has everal guns (and getting more) he currently has

- Dora, the ‘Ex-wife’ MW Blunderbuss
- “Baby” +1 Axe Musket
- “Lightning” +1 Shocking Pepperbox
- “Thunder” +1 Thundering Pepperbox

Considering adding either another Pepperbox or two dragoon pistols

Needless to say I got guns to swap and none of my gunslingers sweat range..

Furthest shot I’ve taken was...4 range increments with a +1 Distance Human Bane Musket

Dark Archive *

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The longest shot I've made in PFS was on my Kineticist (70').

I don't think the GM was expecting that, but it made things very interesting for the party in that encounter... as well as the GM.

Shadow Lodge *****

Well, there was that one encounter we started at 2000'...

Liberty's Edge *

*...shudder...*

Scarab Sages *****

TOZ wrote:
Well, there was that one encounter we started at 2000'...

I remember that one. I recall an archer shooting at -18 to hit once they closed to 1200 feet.

Dark Archive ***

I'm not sure if it is the same scenario, but I recall our party having a kineticst against a long range horde of charging orcs.. Turns out their blasts have a ridiculous range.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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Davor Firetusk wrote:
I'm not sure if it is the same scenario, but I recall our party having a kineticst against a long range horde of charging orcs.. Turns out their blasts have a ridiculous range.

"Cover?!?!! From what? its a wide open field"

"Curvature of the earth."

***

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There's a gorgeously designed encounter in Slumbering Tsar in which the party is camping on some plains and they are stalked by a high level ranger with maxxed out stealth, with feats and gear designed around shooting long distances. He's got a quiver full of arrows of greater slaying and his tactics are to take a single shot from 2000 feet away. And then not shoot again until the party stops looking.

Silver Crusade ****

I don't know. I do all right. I mean, aside from that fellow from leng, I haven't killed anyone yet, but then, that's not really my job. I am more a bring them back alive sort.

at 8th level, 2 shots a round, 1d8+1d6+15 each, at touch AC wears down enemies pretty quickly. And being able to move and still get both shots off means I can kite if I need to. And I can do it in the surprise round, whether I make my perception or not. And I can ready to do it if the big bad casts a spell, in which case I get my grit back...

Grand Lodge ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Davor Firetusk wrote:
I'm not sure if it is the same scenario, but I recall our party having a kineticst against a long range horde of charging orcs.. Turns out their blasts have a ridiculous range.

"Cover?!?!! From what? its a wide open field"

"Curvature of the earth."

“Yup” done that”. Hefts up a gun nearly as tall as her. “I call him ‘Piecemaker’. After shooting two Aspis agents I’ve been ‘requested’ to not shoot him on the isle of Kortos..”

MW timeworn Railgun.


This will probably be trouble. Okay ready myself for the heat.

Okay there is no way to have an Advanced Firearm in Pathfinder Society, right?

Early Firearms arent practical and I dont feel theyre even powerful enough to justify the extremes. For a Pistol to be considered a good weapon with 10-20 effective range it would probably have to be a one-shot-kill weapon.

To me Advanced Firearms might be worth all the trouble of picking up five levels as a Gunslinger, the extra & specific feats and so on.

The Exchange *****

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"I promise you, my pistol kills things just fine."


Can someone post a dpr comparison between a gunslinger at 20 feet and a melee fighter at melee range to show the actual usefulness of the class?

I'm not in a math mood right now, but I feel like it would be a useful addition.

Scarab Sages *****

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fearcypher wrote:

Can someone post a dpr comparison between a gunslinger at 20 feet and a melee fighter at melee range to show the actual usefulness of the class?

I'm not in a math mood right now, but I feel like it would be a useful addition.

It won't help. He's made up his mind despite what everyone has told him based on experience.


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Early firearms are extremely practical, both anecdotally and mathematically. Just because there is a more powerful version doesnt mean the Early ones suck. Or do you think non Mythic characters arent viable because, say, mythic power attack exists?

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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ChaosTicket wrote:


Early Firearms arent practical and I dont feel theyre even powerful enough to justify the extremes. For a Pistol to be considered a good weapon with 10-20 effective range it would probably have to be a one-shot-kill weapon.

So to be a viable character build, you have to be able to end the encounter in one round?

I think you have some highly unrealistic ideas about game balance.


Just went by all of you didnt it. Even seeing quote than takes things out of context to mean "only good if it kills everything in one shot".

Read the context. Pistols are very short range weapon with a 10-20 effective area. Outside he narrow zone accuracy plummets. Please pay attention to that.

Trying to "fix" the flaws are exactly what you dont want me to do, but that is exactly how to make things means practical. Guns that dont jam. better effective range. Less risk in general.

Using ingame methods Reduce Misfire to 0? Improve Touch Ac in a wider range. Reload as a Free Action to make Full attacks every turn.

Now when you do fix things of course that leads to it being overpowered as you would be making high damage attacks from longer range than unaltered melee weapons. In previous posts on this thread I pointed out some ways to get past certain flaws. Musket Master can make Musket reloading a free action. Luring Cavalier can double musket range.

But the ultimate fix is of course Advanced Firearms. a Rifle can reload as a free action with 1 feat. Reducing Misfire to 0 is easy using Reliable enchantment and metal cartridges. Touch AC range is 400feet. That is one reason why they arent used.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

ChaosTicket wrote:
Read the context. Pistols are very short range weapon with a 10-20 effective area. Outside he narrow zone accuracy plummets. Please pay attention to that.

Read my context.

Quote:
Female undine gunslinger (pistolero) 6/inquisitor of Besmara 2

So my gunslinger has made 8th level, using a pistol, despite all your complaints. She has Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges to reload as a free action like you want. She has the Called trait to reroll a nat 1 on an attack once per day. (Reliable is on the shopping list.)

So clearly based on my experience and other peoples experience, Advanced Firearms are unnecessary.

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

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Speaking as someone with ...4 gunslingers..advanced firearms aren’t needed. All of them have been effective. Though each has taugh me something

-Kyrie Grenadier/Musket M 11: will saves require attention. This bears repeating. WILL SAVES REQUIRE ATTENTION. I didn’t get precise shot till 7th and the I learned the short range increment is not the end of a gunslingers increment.
-Boomstick Gun Tank/Spellbreaker/Shield Marsh 10: Blunderbusses suck, except as a splat gun after about 4th level Feat economy on any gunslinger. You don’t need the magic 5th level of Dex to damage to be efffective
- Kalie: Pistolero 3: Being a martial class sometimes means that you might be more useful flanking with a dagger-pistol/rapier to the party than slinger lead.
=Tessa Gunslinger/Battlehost 1: Being a flexible character is more useful to the party than putting a hail of lead down range (skills, equipment, filling in a missing niche like healer, etc)

Won’t lie would love access to a Pepperbox rifle, especially after an encounter with them on the other side
Even after it’s nerf, abundant ammo has uses. As does a lot of spells (bestow Weapon Prof to get the full use out of my rail gun)

My point..Gunslingers do NOT need advanced firearms to be useful. If you think they do, you are mistaken or have too high an expectation of what you want out of them

Dark Archive *

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Or, alternatively, may be a bit lazy and unwilling to do the math for ammunition.

...will freely admit it's what's been scaring me off.

Why lazy?

...because with Advanced Firearms, one plugs in a clip, pulls the trigger. Barring unfortunate or odd circumstances, there's no risk, and it's a louder repeating crossbow.

There's also less Feat investment, less money investment, and less balance.

Just realize, that if one ever got one's wish, one would be *facing* these items ALL THE TIME.

And that would rapidly make a Fantasy setting very NOT fun. (Why bother learning spells if this device can throw a wall of lead downrange?)


Thomas Graham wrote:


My point..Gunslingers do NOT need advanced firearms to be useful. If you think they do, you are mistaken or have too high an expectation of what you want out of them

I never said they werent useful.

I said Early Firearms have in-correctable flaws that made them impractical outside their niche role. Their are ways to reduce but not eliminate the drawbacks.

Compare a Black Powder pistol with 10-20 effective range and 100 maximum range to a Rifle with 10-400 effective range and 800 maximum range.

Everything people can say to me about this is saying I cannot have a Rifleman character like Mathew Quiggley or anyone with an 1860 Spencer Rifle, 1873 Winchester Rifle, or a 1871 Sharps Rifle . I know that I cannot do that within Pathfinder Society but Starfinder Society may be possible using Sniper Weapons.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

No idea who that is, so I can't say.

Grand Lodge **

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No point in arguing for advanced firearms in PFS ChaosTicket. PFS is firmly set in Golarion and Golarion is an emerging firearms setting. That means no advanced firearms exist in the world perioid.


Who's arguing? Im agreeing they arent in Golarion.

Closest thing to a Sniper in the Setting would be the Fat Shot and Pin Point Targeting feats with a long range weapon like a Composite Longbow or Light/Heavy Crossbow wielded by a Bolt Ace.

Dark Archive *

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The topic is 'viable in PFS', and the overwhelming anecdotal evidence brought forth thus far is: [u]Yes, yes they are.[/u]


Again already agreed on that.

What do you call an argument about an argument? Is it a double negative?

Sczarni *****

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I just realized this thread has been in the wrong "General Discussion" Forum this entire time.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Exactly. It seems the point is merely theory-crafting more akin to a general Pathfinder forum than a specific PFS fourm, despite the title. The thread should be moved.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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ChaosTicket wrote:


Everything people can say to me about this is saying I cannot have a Rifleman character like Mathew Quiggley or anyone with an 1860 Spencer Rifle, 1873 Winchester Rifle, or a 1871 Sharps Rifle . I know that I cannot do that within Pathfinder Society but Starfinder Society may be possible using Sniper Weapons.

A pathfinder musket master fires off a bullet a second , its easily faster than a henrey repeating rifle and up there with a browning. Which is one of the complaints about the class: you can tell me its a musket/flint lock pistol all day long but the mechanics say machine gun or yosemite sam.


#1 rule clarification about House Rules about Firearms in Pathfinder Society Campaign. Answered

#2 Opinions based on whether Early Firearms are generally useful enough to be viable.
Opinion based majority says Yes.

#3 Personal Wishlist objective to make RPG Snipers. Society Campaign lacks Advanced Firearms to do that. Still I can dream.

Oh and machineguns have a rate of fire approximately 800 rounds per minute. That would be close to 80 shots per game round

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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ChaosTicket wrote:


Oh and machineguns have a rate of fire approximately 800 rounds per minute. That would be close to 80 shots per game round

Reloading time is a thing in reality.


True but a 100-200 round disintegrating ammunition belt that can be connected to another means its more likely the barrel will overheat. I didnt bring up machineguns.

This thread has already achieved its primary purpose. Secondary purpose cannot be achieved in Pathfinder Society. Tertiary purpose is just talking about old guns now.

While the 1873 winchester Repeating Rifle is famous other Rifles were made in the 1740s some even earlier.

Venture-Agent aka MadScientistWorking

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


And that would rapidly make a Fantasy setting very NOT fun. (Why bother learning spells if this device can throw a wall of lead downrange?)

I always thought the issue was more of fluff reason because even with advanced weaponry they don't get ahead that much compared to other classes. Its why I've always found them boring because doing damage isn't hard to do. Even to the level that you are complaining it isn't that hard to do.


I know some of it is fluff. I know far less about Golarion than any D&d setting.

Any raw physical class is boring after a point. Even with A rifle, then what? I would think of a multiclass such as an Alchemist to fit a Science theme.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Its why I've always found them boring because doing damage isn't hard to do.

See, that is what happens when people only take gunslinger up through 5th level. All the really fun gonzo stuff gunslingers can do kicks in at level 7. They are the archetypal swing from the rafters action adventure class.

Want to shoot the other guys weapon out of his hand at range with out a whole bunch of silly feats and with only a single touch attack? Gunslinger. Want to cast confusion on the bad guy? (No save, *and* does damage to boot?) Gunslinger. Rogue lost his flanking buddy? Render their target flat footed. No roll, no save. Want to chew through DR like it was paper? Gunslinger.

*** Venture-Agent aka Suede

Shield marshal is an acceptable alternative for fun gunslinging. Open door, shoot, close door. Proceed to giggle at confused NPCs.

Grand Lodge ****

Suede wrote:
Shield marshal is an acceptable alternative for fun gunslinging. Open door, shoot, close door. Proceed to giggle at confused NPCs.

Next level..

Next level...

Oh so much fun..

So many judgements.. so many note cards to keep them sorted...

Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

I have never built a gunslinger.

Though... I keep hearing stories of the EPIC group of Minnesota cop characters (S.W.A.T.) that were all built with one level of gunslinger and then any other class to develop their cop persona. They keep promising that I’ll get to GM for them someday, then dashing my poor little GM hopes...

Yes, I know that I am asking for it. Bring me S.W.A.T.!

I cannot wait to see all the Spellslingers in action as they come out over the next year. Maybe I’ll do a gunslinger / bard sometime, and come into every room with western music blaring...

Silver Crusade ****

Borgin 'Boom Stick' McCracken wrote:
Suede wrote:
Shield marshal is an acceptable alternative for fun gunslinging. Open door, shoot, close door. Proceed to giggle at confused NPCs.

Next level..

Next level...

Oh so much fun..

So many judgements.. so many note cards to keep them sorted...

Forget notecards, I have to have a spreadsheet.

Mysterious Stranger, Picarroon, Sleuth, Mysterious stranger.

I have 6 swift actions and 5 immediate actions I can choose from each round.

And the number of different ways I have to spend Grit/Panache/Luck is matched only by the number of ways I have to get it back...

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I have never built a gunslinger.

Though... I keep hearing stories of the EPIC group of Minnesota cop characters (S.W.A.T.) that were all built with one level of gunslinger and then any other class to develop their cop persona. They keep promising that I’ll get to GM for them someday, then dashing my poor little GM hopes...

Yes, I know that I am asking for it. Bring me S.W.A.T.!

I cannot wait to see all the Spellslingers in action as they come out over the next year. Maybe I’ll do a gunslinger / bard sometime, and come into every room with western music blaring...

A caydenite cavalier singing whiskey for my men beer for my horses?

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