From The Pathfinder Society Additional Resources:
"any advanced firearms on Table 3-4 (advanced one-handed) and advanced firearms on Table 3-5 (advanced two-handed) and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
"No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature; All ammunition except metal cartridges may be purchased."
"Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats."
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Okay I thought Pathfinder Society rules killed firearms by #1 banning Advanced Firearms #2 removing the ability to craft your own ammunition and #3 Changing it so you always have to pay full price. But a PFS buddy of mine showed me a build making em think "maybe it could work" Until I double checked all the above.
Each Firearm "shot" takes 1 dose of Blackpowder that costs 10 gold and 1 Bullet that takes 1 gold. Together that costs 11 gold per attack.
Alternatively you can purchase (but not make) alchemical cartridges. The basic Paper cartridges costs 12 gold.
With the cost per attack being 11/12 gold you would burn through a great deal of your early earnings. Normally you are supposed to be able to craft ammunition by having Gunsmithing feat for 10% the cost in materials of regular and 50% on alchemical cartridges
Arrows come in a set of 20 per 1 gold, 10 crossbow bolts for 1 gold, and 10 Sling Bullets for 1 silver.
Another player pointed out there is the Bolt Ace which is much easier to use with a more practical Light Crossbow and its ammo costs being less than 10% of what a Gunslinger pays per shot with a blackpowder weapon.
This question has been asked numerous times and the answer has always been that with the gunsmith feat you can purchase the items at cost, not market value.
That doesnt help as there is no variable Market Value in Pathfinder Society. You buy full price and sell at half price so you cannot make a profit.
To complicate things I have the Pathfinder Society Guide "Year of the Factions Favor" with the following:
"Ranks assigned to Craft skills are used only to perform
Day Job checks, not to craft mundane items, with the
following exceptions.
*Gunslingers can use Craft (gunsmithing)."
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You almost need a level of gunslinger and then 1 rank in craft alchemy. Then your ammo is at 1/10th price for bullets and 1/3 cost for alchemical catridges.
Gunslingers aren't just viable. They rip encounters apart. Being a martial that can attack at range AND against touch ac makes them viciously competent on offense.
What is your source for reference BigNorseWolf?
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What is your source for reference BigNorseWolf?
How does purchasing/crafting special material alchemical cartridges work in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild?
Determine the price of special material ammunition the normal way (or look it up on the table on page 141 of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Equipment). If you have the Gunsmithing feat, you can craft non-alchemical cartridge ammunition for 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for half the price of the cartridge.
posted Mar 13, 2017 | back to top
edit: whoops, looks like its half for the alchemical. Not 1/3rd like most manufactured goods.
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What is your source for reference BigNorseWolf?
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
Do you understand the confusion?
1 Gunsmithing says you can craft ammunition, for 10% regular for normal and 50% for alchemical ammunition.
2 Additional Resources says you cannot craft ammunition.
it also says "at the listed price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm."
Its the "Listed price" detail. Is it the price in the Firearms equipment (what I think) or the modified price according to the Gunsmithing feat?
Firearms are are clearly NEVER cheaper in Pathfinder Society well, not including starting equipment for the Gunslinger.
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The listed price in the Gunsmithing feat.
Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge.
Okay thats 2 people for discount prices. Can I get more?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Chaos, It is TOZ and BNW. If they agree on something, you can probably take it to the bank. A cursory search of the forums would show you that that is the consensus, plus they linked you to the FAQ, which makes it abundantly clear.
Honestly, I have seen zen archers who send more gold down range every turn than gunslingers...
Okay I am taking the words of 2 Venture Captains and an experience player as support for ammunition being discounted. Ill pass it on the Gunslinger player.
Using the Additional resources it whats led me here. The FAQ link answered the question so thank you.
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This question has been asked numerous times and the answer has always been that with the gunsmith feat you can purchase the items at cost, not market value.That doesnt help as there is no variable Market Value in Pathfinder Society. You buy full price and sell at half price so you cannot make a profit.
To complicate things I have the Pathfinder Society Guide "Year of the Factions Favor" with the following:
"Ranks assigned to Craft skills are used only to perform
Day Job checks, not to craft mundane items, with the
following exceptions.*Gunslingers can use Craft (gunsmithing)."
With a rank in Craft (Alchemy) and the Gunsmithing feat, you purchase your ammunition for the same cast you'd spend if you actually were crafting it.
Bullets and gunpowder cost 10% the normal cost, and cartridges cost 50% the normal cost.
This is exactly the same cost as if you were crafting those items.
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market value= the amount in the book = the price.
Cost= how much in raw materials to make it. 1/10th for normal ammo or 1/3 for alchemical reagents. Just because econ 101 drilled the definitions in doesn't mean they're universal.
While this is true for craft (alchemy) gunsmithing feat says that alchemical cartidges cost 1/2 not 1/3 the cost.
Already had an answer AND source for the price confusion.
Well I didnt mean to make this second part but since some people had to bring up the question of Gunslinger COMBAT viability so Ill go with it.
Gunslingers problems:
1 Low skill points
2 Gun can misfire
3 Reloading and firing weapons provokes Attacks of Opportunity
4 Reloading firearms isnt normally a free action like a Bow. This limits firearms to one shot every other turn for two-handed weapons or one-shot per turn for one-handed ones.
Feat: Rapid Reload reduces the action taken by reloading down 1 level for a specific weapon.
Musket Master Archetype is specialized in two-handed Firearms. It starts with Rapid Reload specialized in the Musket.
At level 3 it learns Fast Musket Deedy reduces the action of reloading from a standard to a move action.
Alchemical Cartridges can be used to reduce that yet again down to a free action.
So now gaining additional attacks from most sources can now be fully exploited.
One-handed weapons can also use rapid Reload+Alchemical cartridges to get get Free Action reloading.
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Already had an answer AND source for the price confusion.
Well I didnt mean to make this second part but since some people had to bring up the question of Gunslinger COMBAT viability so Ill go with it.
Gunslingers problems:
1 Low skill points
2 Gun can misfire
3 Reloading and firing weapons provokes Attacks of Opportunity
4 Reloading firearms isnt normally a free action like a Bow. This limits firearms to one shot every other turn for two-handed weapons or one-shot per turn for one-handed ones.Feat: Rapid Reload reduces the action taken by reloading down 1 level for a specific weapon.
Musket Master Archetype is specialized in two-handed Firearms. It starts with Rapid Reload specialized in the Musket.
At level 3 it learns Fast Musket Deedy reduces the action of reloading from a standard to a move action.
Alchemical Cartridges can be used to reduce that yet again down to a free action.So now gaining additional attacks from most sources can now be fully exploited.
One-handed weapons can also use rapid Reload+Alchemical cartridges to get get Free Action reloading.
Empirical evidence > Theorycrafting
EDIT:
Rapid Reload for a Pistol with Alchemical Cartridges allows for free action reloading with a musket.
Rapid Reload for a musket + 3rd level Musketmaster + Alchemical Cartridges allows for free action reloading with a musket.
Otherwise, you can use Vital Strike feat tree to make a completely viable gunslinger, even at high levels, without needing to reload at better than a move action (I've got a vital strike crossbow character I'm taking through Reign of Winter, currently 15th level and very strong damage dealer.)
If you dont make it so reloading is a free action then yes Vital Strike would probably be the best choice for more firepower.
On different ranged weapon builds instead make it so you can make 5-7 attacks per turn as a full action. Cluster Shot would be an option for high Damage Reduction targets.
Anything that boosts damage would would on each shot so +5 damage on 6 musket shots would trump +5 on one shot. The trick being of course hitting with all them, but with Firearms that wouldnt be nearly as much a problem as with a Bow.
Point Blank master is a high value feat for any ranged combat character. 4 levels of Fighter or 3 of a Zen Archer Monk allow it.
Multiclassing is a way to improve the Gunslinger it has most of the things its needs to do well with a gun by level 5. A No Armor Zen Archer/Gunslinger actually can work well as both Dexterity and Wisdom would give additional Armor Class and several abilities of both classes stack off one or the other.
Not usable in Pathfinder Society is the 3rd Party Zen Marksmen Monk. It allows firearms for Flurry of Blows and still allows Flurry of Blows for melee.
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If you dont make it so reloading is a free action then yes Vital Strike would probably be the best choice for more firepower.
On different ranged weapon builds instead make it so you can make 5-7 attacks per turn as a full action. Cluster Shot would be an option for high Damage Reduction targets.
Anything that boosts damage would would on each shot so +5 damage on 6 musket shots would trump +5 on one shot. The trick being of course hitting with all them, but with Firearms that wouldnt be nearly as much a problem as with a Bow.
Point Blank master is a high value feat for any ranged combat character. 4 levels of Fighter or 3 of a Zen Archer Monk allow it.
Multiclassing is a way to improve the Gunslinger it has most of the things its needs to do well with a gun by level 5. A No Armor Zen Archer/Gunslinger actually can work well as both Dexterity and Wisdom would give additional Armor Class and several abilities of both classes stack off one or the other.
Not usable in Pathfinder Society is the 3rd Party Zen Marksmen Monk. It allows firearms for Flurry of Blows and still allows Flurry of Blows for melee.
Gunslingers do not need help (multiclassing) to be one of the single most strongest options in Pathfinder or PFS.
Okay many physical classes have Empty Levels where the get no new features. Gunslinger start with Light Armor proficiency, Martial Proficiency, Firearms proficiency, Gunsmith, and Grit. You Also start with the Quick Clear deed which is probably the one you will use the most.
At level 4 you have a bonus feat.
At level 5 you have Gun Training with 1 kind of Firearm.
Musket Master min-maxes that to allows free reloads to have FUll-attacks at level 3 and uses your Dexterity to boosting ALL two-handed Firearms at level 5.
After that...? You just repeat the cycle of 1 bonus feat and 1 new Gun Training every 5 levels.
Beyond that you can gain significant bonuses from not being the Gunslinger. Wisdom classes can help a lot.
3 levels of Zen Archer gives you a number of bonuses already mentioned.
Cleric can work well mainly at buffing yourself.
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particular interesting are these
Swashbuckler has an Archetype, the Inspired Blade that allows you Panache and Grit. Their pools stack and also stacks for certain powers like Signature Deed that would allow you to fix misfires for free.
3 levels in Rogue gives you a lot of skills and allows you to pick one Rogue type weapon to get Dexterity-to-Damage. Pick a rapier and your sword is about as strong as your gun.
Combine those things together and you have so many options of heroics to do while shooting or stabbing and being hard to hit while practically naked.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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After that...? You just repeat the cycle of 1 bonus feat and 1 new Gun Training every 5 levels.
You are forgetting deeds.
3 levels of Zen Archer gives you a number of bonuses already mentioned.
Every single bonus Zen Archer gets (aside from things every monk gets) says "With a bow."
Guns are not bows.
Wisdom to AC is nice, but honestly, armor is not that expensive.
Paladin, on the other hand is a popular one to add to gunslinger, for touch attack smite damage.
Some Zen Archer abilities do require a Bow starting with Flurry of Blows, feats granted by "Way of the Bow", Zen Archery, and Perfect Strike but not others. Point Blank Master does not and neither do the Bonus Feats at level 1 and 2.
So gain Precise Shot with 1 level, Rapid Shot with 2 levels(no conflict as you cant use Flurry anyway), and Point Blank Master with 3 levels. Also multiclass saves stack so that also means +3 Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
The Monk Giving an AC bonus from Wisdom is very useful as the secondary stat of the Gunslinger is Wisdom for more Grit points. Oh and being naked means you have +10 movement. Thanks again Monk.
Oh and you can dip 1 level into any magic class and gain Cantrips/Orisons. 1 level into an arcane class can get you Prestidigitation allows you to dry out your wet powder.
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With so many options available now in Pathfinder you can even make a build that utilizes the humble Blowgun and stomp all over the combats in most scenarios. Multiclass monstrosities are nothing new. But...
1) your fellow players and GMs will probably tire of sitting at the same table with you.
2) you're probably going to be bored yourself during social and/or skills encounters.
3) what will you do when there's *zero" combat? (I've been in a few scenarios now where we never rolled Initiative once)
4) how would you feel if you prepped an exciting scenario and one of your builds sat down at your table?
5) how will newer players, of any age/ability/financial status, perceive PFS when you play at their table?
While it's certainly possible to build a character that can own the average scenario, should you? Sometimes self restraint is just as prized.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Some kind person put up a table a couple years ago for gunslinger prices for regular and alchemical rounds for various types of ammo. Sadly, I don't have the link to that thread.I must confess!
I still disagree with your mithral costs, but as that has since been errata'd it's rather moot.
In any case, I've made 4 gunslingers (well, 7, but one died on her second game and two are bolt aces). The big problem is that unless you multiclass them, they get a bit boring to play. Just about the only thing the class brings to the table is being really good at fighting. Branching out into other classes, whether a 1 level dip into witch, an even split with inquisitor, or almost entirely magus, brings a lot of flavor to it.
2) you're probably going to be bored yourself during social and/or skills encounters.
3) what will you do when there's *zero" combat? (I've been in a few scenarios now where we never rolled Initiative once)
4) how would you feel if you prepped an exciting scenario and one of your builds sat down at your table?
5) how will newer players, of any age/ability/financial status, perceive PFS when you play at their table?
While it's certainly possible to build a character that can own the average scenario, should you? Sometimes self restraint is just as prized.
Responding to #3 and #4 thats another reason to multiclass. Any class with low skill points per level is going to have little use outside of combat, and major problem with the ever popular core Fighter an the class in this topic, the Gunslinger. Having levels in nearly any class will grant many more skill points per level as well as more Class Skills. Make your character able to sneak around, talk to people, have knowledge of a wide range of subjects, etc.
#5 New players, I remember when I started in PFS a almost two years ago I was more a traditionalist of playing classes level 1-20. Logic, pragmatism, and plain curiosity at another player mixing up classes got me interested in combinations.
Spellcasters suffer from having mixed classes as basically everything about them in based around character level, discouraging experimentation. Physical classes gain most of their interesting features levels 1-5 and then just slowly improve upon what is already there. In Pathfinder there are sometimes "advanced" class features for mundane classes though they rarely beneficial enough to have 10/15/20 levels in one class.
I think its more about allowing and encouraging creativity and making unique characters either because you just want to make something different or because you want to just make a well-rounded character instead of a static idea.
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Gunslingers can be absolute dps monsters in a couple ways. But IMO they get boring fast. To build a really good one it leaves you with very few chances to diversify from another build. 9/10 of your feats go into ranged combat requirements. Most of the guns are just bad, leaving only a small handful. Most good skill classes wont give you anything cool and because your essentially only a dex monkey most of your skills that you do end up grabbing will be sucky.
Now all that aside they aren't bad. Especially if optimized (close to munchkin territory even) you can get your skills up to reasonable levels. You wont have a ton of them but the 4 or 5 you have youll be really good at. Also any build that lets me attack 7 times a round is cool with me. Two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and haste are pretty cool to have.
Advanced Firearms are banned in the Pathfinder Society Campaign because of their numerous benefits over Early Firearms. One major advantage is that advanced firearms can reload to full capacity as a move action and with Rapid Reload its a free action.
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On Early Firearms you have to go through a tree of combinations to make it possible to fire at least once per turn and multiple shots as a free action. Reducing time taken on reloading is one of the highest priorities of anyone using Firearms.
The main draw of double-barrels is that they fire two shots as a standard action with a large to-hit penalty. Then reloading both barrels takes a full-action.
the Rapid Shot feat allows you to basically do the thing as double-barrelled firearms but as a full-action with a lower to-hit penalty and it works on any ranged weapon. If you can reduce that to a free-action then you make double-barrelled firearms almost obsolete as you then make 3+ attacks per full action.
Still you can combine all the things to be able to fire both barrels as a Standard action AND make full attacks. COmbine those with other feats and abilities and you can make your per-shot damage very high, your accuracy still high, and keep moving while attacking.
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Different types of Firearms require their own separate Rapid Reload over single-barreled ones as well as other weapon specific feats such as Improved Critical. By default a Gunslinger only learns ONE weapon specific Gun Training every 5 levels.
Pistolero and Musket Master apply Gun Training to every one or two-handed firearm respectively. They are pretty much required unless you plan to stick to one type of gun through most of your character life.
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Oh. I never saw double barreled weapons in use.Consider yourself lucky then...
Their increased rate of misfire made them undesirable before the errata, and after the errata everyone moved towards dual wielding anyways.
I did encounter one double barrelled build when I sat down to a notoriously deadly 4-6 RPG Day Module, and needless to say the BBEG eliminated him first.
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My wife and I play our Musket Master and Pistolero conservatively for the most part. I recently ran a 7-11 for her and some friends. Since she was using a replay, we both knew what was coming in the high tier, so she brought Audrey for insurance. In the last two fights, she went full bore with all six attacks to protect the low tier characters. She removed the threat in one round the first time, and two the second time. I played much the same in another 7-11 with Marin, often only taking single shots rather than burn cartridges. That went out the window in the final fight, as allies were in danger. Both iteratives and haste attack were used to prevent any loss of life.